Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It seems that will both Warzone: Fenris books and the Trator Legions out, there are quite a few options for Daemon Flying Circus lists. I'd like to discuss the merits of them all.

First let's list the formations that exist:

The Infernal Tetrad = 4 DPs, 1 of each chaos alignment. Bonuses = stat bumps for having more DPs on the board, shared WL Trait
The Omniscient Oracles = Fateweaver + 1-3 Lords of Change. Bonuses = re-roll 1s to-hit, to-wound & psychic tests. Re-roll Seize and reserve rolls
The Rehati War Sect = Magnus + 3-9 Tzeentch Princes. Bonuses = DPs 18" of Magnus harnesses WC on 3+ and always have LoS for powers

The last one I'd like to discuss isn't a single formation, but several detachments. Night Lords, Alpha Legion & Iron Warriors all have a relic that grants a 2+ armour plus other benefits
You could take a Detachment of each legion to get 3 DPs with 2+. Make them Tzeentch to re-roll that 2+

If anyone can think of another option, let's hear it. Note that I am not interested in a Daemon CAD with a Greater Daemon + 3 Heavy support DPs as the options above offer so much more.
---------------------------------------------

So far my favorite is the Tetrad, but that's mostly because I have played it and have the models for it. I am quickly beginning to think the Oracles will be much better.
I wouldn't mine trying the Magnus Formation as it is the only option that could be purely FMCs. Magnus + 4 DPs will easily fill 1850

The Tetrad would need an additional Detachment to fill the point. My favorite 2 options for this is:
A) Tallyband with a Doomsday bell Herald and lots of Nurglings. -1 LD goes well with Shriek, which at least 1 DP will have if not 2 and all the Incursion bonuses are quick welcome
B) a CAD with Belakor, Pink Horrors and 2 unit of Nurglings. Belakor is a perfect fit as "leader" of the Tetrad (note, not Warlord) and the troops are decent filler.

I think the advantage the Oracles have is that you don't have to do 4 FMCs like the Tetrad. FW is always a good choice for Daemons and 2 LoCs are easily better than 2 DPs
A cool idea would be to combine the Oracles with 2 CSM allie detachments.
Imagine FW + 2 LoCs, then 2 Tz DPs with 2+ armour. One would be Night Lords, so stealth cultists as troops, the other from Iron Warriors, so 6+ FNP Obliterators as Troops

That's all I have for now. There is a ton more, I'm sure, so I'll leave it to you guys

-

I would say the oracles is the strongest. Fateweaver's reroll can save your doomed flyer who failed a grounding check which alone can help win a game. Plus a LOC is better then a DP IMO.

I really want to like the Magnus + DP Sect but you need to support Magnus with warp charges from other sources to be effective for his points but you don't want to get those warp charges from 300 point DP's or they will be useless. You can try to summon pink horrors the first 2 turns but then your not killing your opponent which can cost you a lot if your losing a flyer per turn to enemy fire.

I agree on the Sect. You could easily take Magnus + 3 DPs, then a Daemon CAD with a ML3 Disc Herald and tons of Horrors.

The more I think about the Oracle formation, the more I want to run it instead of the Tetrad. I too think that FW + 2 LoC are a better deal than 4 DPs, plus it leaves plenty of point to fit in more support, including other FMCs if you wish.

-

If anyone can think of another option, let's hear it.

The detachments in Traitors legion have 4 command slots so they can all technically get 4 DPs in them. The trick is also affording the core and aux and whether that tax is worth the command benefits granted. Been personally looking at the DG one for durability bump from Feel no Pain reroll 1s (so sort of like getting greater gift FnP for free) and stealth from 18" away.

Oh wow, I didn't know about that one. Sounds like a great Nurgle circus. Even if you only had points for 3 of them that's crazy durable

I used the Omniscient Oracle with Magnus in a game yesterday. Found the LoC to be very limited as a shooting platform without access to telepathy. Best to keep him on the ground to protect your back field or something.

 Galef wrote:
I agree on the Sect. You could easily take Magnus + 3 DPs, then a Daemon CAD with a ML3 Disc Herald and tons of Horrors.

Unless you take discounted DPs with very little upgrades, it won't be a ton of pinks, more like 2 squads of a 10+ models. Magnus + 3x 300-ish DP is already at ~1550, two basic squad of 11 pinks is ~1750 leaving just 100 pts for the herald.

I haven't tried it yet, but my biggest concern with the Rehati War Sect is that it looks a lot like a glass canon. Sure the DPs casting on 3+ is really really good, combo really well with Big M siphon magic power and makes them a lot more threatening overall. But in the end they are just T5 with 4W each. Even when flying that's weak.
Not having the added "toughness" of the Demon codex Greater Rewards hurts...

 Galef wrote:
A cool idea would be to combine the Oracles with 2 CSM allie detachments.
Imagine FW + 2 LoCs, then 2 Tz DPs with 2+ armour. One would be Night Lords, so stealth cultists as troops, the other from Iron Warriors, so 6+ FNP Obliterators as Troops

That the other hand, looks promising. And I think I'm gonna try that tomorrow for funsies.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
I used the Omniscient Oracle with Magnus in a game yesterday. Found the LoC to be very limited as a shooting platform without access to telepathy. Best to keep him on the ground to protect your back field or something.

Well yeah... compared to Magnus and Fatey that are both fantastic shooting platforms, the LoC seems limited in that aspect.
But LoC are good beatsticks. Give him a lesser (for the +2S staff), 2 greater rewards and he'll be able to absorb a lot of hits and wreck stuff for you in close combat.
Psychic-wise, being able to take Paradox makes him a good summoner if you go Malefic. Otherwise I just makes him go full divination to get prescience / the 4++ / misfortune and most importantly Precog. A fully kited LoC with precog is a real killing machine (even flicker fire is pretty strong when you reroll to hit and to wound).

Thousand Son DP's of Tzeentch casting empyric shield from the Ectomancy discipline get 2+ invul save rerollable and achieve god mode. Think big

The War Sect could be good with Exalted Sorcerers. They're squishy on their own, but with Discs they can keep up with the flyers and hide behind terrain. They won't need LoS to act as buff buddies (ha), and the Daemons can dish out offense.

A Tetrad + Oracles could be fun, and would (barely) fit.

I tried to write an oracles flying circus list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/711374.page#9083275

So I keep coming back to the Oracles being the best option because it allows you to spend what you want, rather than having to really commit (like the Tetrad)

FW + 2 LoC + a CAD with, say, Belakor, a Disc Herald with Grimiore and a 9 Screamers could have an amazing board presence. Belakor can cast Shrouding so that the Oracles and Screamerstar have a 2+ re-rollable Jink.

 Galef wrote:
So I keep coming back to the Oracles being the best option because it allows you to spend what you want, rather than having to really commit (like the Tetrad)

FW + 2 LoC + a CAD with, say, Belakor, a Disc Herald with Grimiore and a 9 Screamers could have an amazing board presence. Belakor can cast Shrouding so that the Oracles and Screamerstar have a 2+ re-rollable Jink.

I just don't feel that a 2nd LoC is good, without impossible robe its not that survivable to keep on the ground unless your keeping it near bela the whole time and its not that great of a shooting platform to keep in the air either.

What are some good tzeentch units that need deepstriking (taking advantage of oracle formation), i dont see much discussion about this

maybe scarab occult termies?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

I just don't feel that a 2nd LoC is good, without impossible robe its not that survivable to keep on the ground unless your keeping it near bela the whole time and its not that great of a shooting platform to keep in the air either.

I have had more than enough success with a single LoC well before the Robes existed. Even without the Robes, I think LoCs are the best Greater Daemon out of the 4.

Having said that, I am only suggesting 2 LoCs to take more advantage of the Formation. I.e. the most models getting re-roll 1's as I can get. I don't consider a 3rd LoC for the exact saem reasons as you dislike the 2nd.
For me, a LoC without Robes is still better than a DP with armour. Since I would take Belakor alongside a Oracles formation anyway, having the 2nd LoC as a beatstick Summoner just makes sense.

-

I would agree the LOC is one of the best melee options out there and use mine more for melee then as a flying shooting platform. I've had mixed results with the Robe though and a few times have lost my LOC on the first wound.

I'm a bit frustrated they did not allow Magnus to be a LOW for Demons though...considering he is a demon primarch it makes no sense to me. I hope they add him as a LOW for the next demons codex though. (my local area tournaments usually limit sources to 1 cad plus allies so it's harder to get him in a flying circus list).

It makes perfect sense that Magnus isn't a Daemon LoW. Why would he lead an army of Daemons when he has an army of soldiers that were literally made for him/from him.
People keep focusing on the "Daemon" part of him and ignoring the "Primarch" part.
When Magnus goes to war, it will be with CSM. Daemons are welcome to tag along, but Magnus cares not to lead them.

Tactically I thought of another reason to use the 2nd LoC. Paradox. Since obviously the first LoC will have the Robes, the other gets Paradox.
WIth the Oracles bonus, you make be able to prolong having to use Paradox until the last spell you cast. For example, if I want to summon a unit, Paradox makes casting a WC3 power guaranteed on 5 dice. If I through 5 dice, but I roll some 1s the LoC can reroll those before choosing to use Paradox.
This could leave Paradox as a way to draw out the opponent dispel dice and save Paradox until the last power you want to cast. The Oracles bonus may allow this to happen as rerolling 1s can easily make a power succeed when so many dice are rolled.

I tried the following last week-end:
Omniscient Oracles:
Kairos (warlord)
LoC lvl3 with 2x Greater, 1x Lesser and Paradox
LoC lvl3 with 1x Exalted (Grimoire) and 1x Greater

CSM Night Lords Allied Detachment:
DP of Tzeentch lvl3 with wings, spell familiar and the Stormbol Plate
10x Cultists
Heldrake with baleflamer

CSM Iron Warriors Allied Detachment:
DP of Tzeentch lvl3 with wings, spell familiar and the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton
10x Cultists[/list]

It was an interesting army, but obviously lacking board control. However, the paradox LoC allowed me to summon one unit every turn so that wasnt too bad. Maybe swap the heldrake for more board control in the future ?
Anyway, Night Lords and Iron Warrior seems to be the best two legions DP. They both provide a 2+ armor relic, and some sweet bonuses on the side: Iron Warrior grant FNP6+ and IWND, Night Lord give you stealth and +1 cover (=2+ jink)

For the record, I was facing a War Convocation with a ton of gravs so my 2+ armor DP were in a bad place. Hopefully I had first turn and the treason of tzeentch power, so I simply made one unit fire at the other, destroying it easily. The two LoC were on the ground advancing rapidly for a turn 2 charge. I just ignored the IK and destroyed everything else with psychic powers and some close combat.

personally I think whichever combo can generate the most warp charges with FW + Magnus is going to be the most effective.