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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




KDK is really Codex: Gorepack.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 sfshilo wrote:
Does anyone here actually play csm?

CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.

For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.

The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....

If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.


Actually the nurgle chaos marines are fearless, and they get 5+ FNP and rerolling 1s on FNP. That's better than iron warriors.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

a fat guy wrote:
A quick google threw up this Dakka thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459903.page

Seems like they count as having used their jump packs if they deep strike, which makes sense really.


Obviously.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 Roknar wrote:
The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CAD WE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.

All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WE lol.


After some thought I would have to go with WE as well. Im not a fan of KDK as you either summon generally bad demons or pump your army wide FnP. While army wide FNP is a nice thing, I feel the tricks WE bring and the broader unit selection more than make up for it. As many like to state the gorepack is probably the best thing in the codex formation wise and you can ally one into a WE force easily and cheaply. WE's just bring more flexibility and better relics (imho) while getting turn 1 charges (maybe). The problem is Zerkers are trash. Neither KdK or WE change that. Maelstrom of Gore makes them not trash for one turn. Then its back to being a overpriced fearless khorne marked marine.

Also, and as you have stated, if you have access to IA 13, WE are the hands down winner of the two. Between the very nice Khorne Legacies and some nice tanks to put them on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Danny slag wrote:
 sfshilo wrote:
Does anyone here actually play csm?

CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.

For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.

The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....

If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.


Actually the nurgle chaos marines are fearless, and they get 5+ FNP and rerolling 1s on FNP. That's better than iron warriors.


As it should be. You should not be playing Iron Warriors for FNP. You play IW to hide in forts and blow things up with templates. And if you get lucky with warlord traits....to make Oblits un-suck. However I think the IWs got shafted pretty hard in legions. Its biggest draw is re-rolling barrage and ordinance.....which our codex has all of two units that provide either. And one of them is really really bad (defiler). If the re-roll rule was changed to add in blast it would have been very nice and a big reason to take IWs outside of fluff reasons. or better yet, it should not have been a formation bonus but a legion trait so you could use IA 13 for tanks the IW should have in the first place. Its not as bad as rubric heavy TS or WBs, so that is saying something, I guess.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 05:23:30


 
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

What does the Spartan have to do with anything?


It's one of our few reliable delivery methods, joined by the Dreadclaw and Kharybdis. If you want to guarantee something gets where it needs to be, you need one of them. So, if you're running a deathstar of sorts, like the Alpha Legion's artefacts lend themselves to, you'll need something to be the party bus. DC doesn't have the capacity, and the Spartan is more bang for your buck. You can hope the Mindveil gets you into CC with the 11" average movement, but you're also potentially spending at least one round out in the open, being wounded on 2+ from grav, with only Shrouded and a 5++ standing between them and being turned into miniature black holes.

   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Jancoran wrote:

Try it at a tournament and see what happens. No one is going to agree to that spurious logic... You wont do it to me in a game, I promise you. But if you wanna' sell that snake oil, go right ahead.


That's how it works and that's how everyone plays it. It might be an oversight in the brb cause they didn't have ds+assault in mind but jumppackers do get fleet and HOW when they charge after ds cause RAW they don't use the kumppacks to deepstrike.

Try to depict screaming angry marines dropping flat into the ground from the sky to save their jumppacks fuel to deliver a bit more devastating blow to the enemy afterwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
a fat guy wrote:
A quick google threw up this Dakka thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459903.page

Seems like they count as having used their jump packs if they deep strike, which makes sense really.


Obviously.


It's only for rokkit packs. Not for jumppacks. Rules for zaggy orks specifically stated that the jumppacks count as having been used. Cause feth orks.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 07:39:36


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

I'm so dumbfounded by the whole conversation that I think I'll disengage.

As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.

Anywho.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in ie
Furious Raptor





 Roknar wrote:
GW change their mind more often than most people change their knickers. Intent five years ago isn't much to go on tbh. And RAW in this case is pretty clear. Also despite having fixed abaddon in a previous faq for this editions codex and most people agreeing it's bollocks, people now play it as written regardless, so why should this be any different? Especially considering this is a choice.
Either way though, I think I made my position clear. I'd rather not derail the thread any further.


Does this count as derailing, since the result is that we figure out whether BL or NL is better at Raptor Talon? I think that if we use common sense a jump pack is actually used while deep striking, so it makes sense that it has already been "used".

Or you can run Black Legion against my Night Lords in some middleman country and we can see who Talons harder baby
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Jancoran wrote:

As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.


They fall down. Flat. Screaming bloody murder.
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






 Jancoran wrote:
I'm so dumbfounded by the whole conversation that I think I'll disengage.

As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.

Anywho.


No they're not. They come down from the skys crashing into the enemy with the momentum and impact of a speeding car. Or just straight into the enemy.
The latter results in a mishap in game rules and the former has you enter the game via deepstrike and then cause hammer of wrath attacks as you reach combat.
So the unit using deepstrike without counting as using their jumppack matches the lore to a T. In your case they come down with the fury of the skies and then just kinda waddle over into combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 12:43:27


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




In my games I have always counted my talon as have using the jump pack to Deep Strike (as a common sense type of thing) so have never re-rolled charges on the same turn. However, after re-reading both rules I am now not so sure. In the jump unit entry it does not say in written rules that the unit uses its jump pack to deep strike. Only that it gains the DS special rule. This is against common sense as it is but it is RAW. Now if you look at the Deep Strike special rule it also does not state how a unit enters deep strike. To the game, RAW it does not matter how a unit gains the special rule only that it has it. So, RAW in mind, I would have to say that jump units can re-roll charges the turn they Deep Strike. I myself think this is just a poorly written rule and needs to be FAQ'd soon as common sense goes against RAW. At this point you need to follow tournament rulings on the subject when playing in one or if playing in a private or pug, you need to either come to a agreement or roll on it.

For the record I have to state I will at default be playing as the talon uses the packs to DS, as that is common sense, which I value more than RAW. But from now on I will bring this issue up in future games and come to a consensus before playing.

Also, when debating the BL vs NL raptor talon and whos is better, you need to factor in crusader. Its not a huge thing. But it can help if you choose not to shoot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 12:50:06


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSM HQs when I can avoid it.

Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.

Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. (Ork Boyz get 4 on the charge for 6 points. So 1.5 pts per attack, instead of 1.33) They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed, and Chaos has the powers to buff them. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 12:50:59


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

TL did exactly what I wanted for CSM. Added cool flavour and provided enough tools to bring us up to KDK power level, which I think is about where factions should be.

 ChazSexington wrote:
DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.

I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.

Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.


I agree Alpha Legion are on the lower end of the power scale. I think a strong MSU army can be made but not necessarily better than other legions. The strength of the formation for me is in turn one shrouding; combine infiltrating chosen and CSM squads with a bike lord, bikes and drakescale plate daemon prince (both 2+ jink turn one, the DP even gets to re-roll that jink) then it's an army that gets to where it needs to be earlier in the game.

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 MagicJuggler wrote:
Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSM HQs when I can avoid it.

Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.

Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.


I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.

The problem with cultists, in this discussion anyhow, is that the legion meant to make the most use of them, does not. AL cultists cannot be marked. This hurts them badly. Furthermore AL cant take the lost and damned formation as core. Which is terrible. So as far as AL is concerned, cultists are not a good choice when using the formation and that kills the formation special rule. So yea, AL got shafted pretty hard to boot. Infil on chosen.cultists and marines is not worth much. Perhaps on plasma chosen if you have a glut of points to run them. Now you may get some mileage with a CaD and adding a lost and damned formation, but you need to ask if infil is worth giving up marks. In this case I do not think it is since you need MoK for those extra attacks and counter attack.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 13:04:22


 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






Table wrote:
In my games I have always counted my talon as have using the jump pack to Deep Strike (as a common sense type of thing) so have never re-rolled charges on the same turn. However, after re-reading both rules I am now not so sure. In the jump unit entry it does not say in written rules that the unit uses its jump pack to deep strike. Only that it gains the DS special rule. This is against common sense as it is but it is RAW. Now if you look at the Deep Strike special rule it also does not state how a unit enters deep strike. To the game, RAW it does not matter how a unit gains the special rule only that it has it. So, RAW in mind, I would have to say that jump units can re-roll charges the turn they Deep Strike. I myself think this is just a poorly written rule and needs to be FAQ'd soon as common sense goes against RAW. At this point you need to follow tournament rulings on the subject when playing in one or if playing in a private or pug, you need to either come to a agreement or roll on it.

For the record I have to state I will at default be playing as the talon uses the packs to DS, as that is common sense, which I value more than RAW. But from now on I will bring this issue up in future games and come to a consensus before playing.

Also, when debating the BL vs NL raptor talon and whos is better, you need to factor in crusader. Its not a huge thing. But it can help if you choose not to shoot.


Crusader helps a talon quite a bit actually, in theory at least. The talon can reduce leadership to make it more likely the opponent fails their morale test and then crusader gives you +1-3 to your d6 for sweeping advances. That's better than the mark of slaanesh, since sweeping advances use unmodified iniative.

And I disagree that it makes more sense to use the jump pack. The lore has them jumping out of thunderhawks or so and they're really only need to use their jump packs to break the fall just before they hit the ground or maybe ea little bit of course correction.
That leaves them plenty of fuel to either crash straight into the enemy by activating their jump packs just before they land, having them hit the enemy right away or still with the momentum of landing just a few feet away while on a diagonal descent. Aka your assault move.

They don't have to use their jump packs to gain altitude like they do once they are on the ground, that part is covered by the thunderhawk. They are actually falling in a controlled manner as opposed to jumping.
Or in the case warp talons emerging from the warp charging with gusto. They don't need their jump packs to deepstrike at all.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 13:08:37


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 Roknar wrote:
Table wrote:
In my games I have always counted my talon as have using the jump pack to Deep Strike (as a common sense type of thing) so have never re-rolled charges on the same turn. However, after re-reading both rules I am now not so sure. In the jump unit entry it does not say in written rules that the unit uses its jump pack to deep strike. Only that it gains the DS special rule. This is against common sense as it is but it is RAW. Now if you look at the Deep Strike special rule it also does not state how a unit enters deep strike. To the game, RAW it does not matter how a unit gains the special rule only that it has it. So, RAW in mind, I would have to say that jump units can re-roll charges the turn they Deep Strike. I myself think this is just a poorly written rule and needs to be FAQ'd soon as common sense goes against RAW. At this point you need to follow tournament rulings on the subject when playing in one or if playing in a private or pug, you need to either come to a agreement or roll on it.

For the record I have to state I will at default be playing as the talon uses the packs to DS, as that is common sense, which I value more than RAW. But from now on I will bring this issue up in future games and come to a consensus before playing.

Also, when debating the BL vs NL raptor talon and whos is better, you need to factor in crusader. Its not a huge thing. But it can help if you choose not to shoot.


Crusader helps a talon quite a bit actually, in theory at least. The talon can reduce leadership to make it more likely the opponent fails their morale test and then crusader gives you +1-3 to your d6 for sweeping advances. That's better than the mark of slaanesh, since sweeping advances use unmodified iniative.

And I disagree that it makes more sense to use the jump pack. The lore has them jumping out of thunderhawks or so and they're really only need to use their jump packs to break the fall just before they hit the ground or maybe ea little bit of course correction.
That leaves them plenty of fuel to either crash straight into the enemy by activating their jump packs just before they land, having them hit the enemy right away or still with the momentum of landing just a few feet away while on a diagonal descent.

They don't have to use their jump packs to gain altitude like they do once they are on the ground, that part is covered by the thunderhawk. They are actually falling in a controlled manner as opposed to jumping.


Well in the end, you certainly make a strong case. Ill give you that. And RAW you are correct. In my future games I will be talking this out before games or using the tournament ruling. Hopefully in 8th we get a better rule so this does not need to happen.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






AL Cultists are good even on their own - without the big formation. Infiltrate is not a useless bonus there. Furthermore, it buffs the magic cultist deathstar significantly. No need to spend points on Ahriman or Huron - just go for more BL sorcs. Reliable infiltrate. Endless warlords. Mindveil.

That's a really good buff for competitive gamebreaking. And it's very characterful in fun games too.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 koooaei wrote:
AL Cultists are good even on their own - without the big formation. Infiltrate is not a useless bonus there. Furthermore, it buffs the magic cultist deathstar significantly. No need to spend points on Ahriman or Huron - just go for more BL sorcs. Reliable infiltrate. Endless warlords. Mindveil.

That's a really good buff for competitive gamebreaking. And it's very characterful in fun games too.


Infiltrate is never useless. But its impact is variable. AL would have been far better off if being able to core the lost and the damned. Currently, you are hard pressed to add the formation when you have filled out a warband and taken specialist units. Furthermore on an combat basis they are weaker than other legions cultist due to not being able to mark. A doble whammy to be sure. I think the only option for AL at this point is a CaD with added formations (which you get two of under ITC). It is not that AL is bad. It is that the AL has been hindered by stupid rules. But you find that in other legions as well so they are not alone.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Why would you want to mark cultists? They end up pretty overpriced.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Table wrote:
 Roknar wrote:
The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CAD WE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.

All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WE lol.


After some thought I would have to go with WE as well. Im not a fan of KDK as you either summon generally bad demons or pump your army wide FnP. While army wide FNP is a nice thing, I feel the tricks WE bring and the broader unit selection more than make up for it. As many like to state the gorepack is probably the best thing in the codex formation wise and you can ally one into a WE force easily and cheaply. WE's just bring more flexibility and better relics (imho) while getting turn 1 charges (maybe). The problem is Zerkers are trash. Neither KdK or WE change that. Maelstrom of Gore makes them not trash for one turn. Then its back to being a overpriced fearless khorne marked marine.

Also, and as you have stated, if you have access to IA 13, WE are the hands down winner of the two. Between the very nice Khorne Legacies and some nice tanks to put them on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Danny slag wrote:
 sfshilo wrote:
Does anyone here actually play csm?

CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.

For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.

The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....

If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.


Actually the nurgle chaos marines are fearless, and they get 5+ FNP and rerolling 1s on FNP. That's better than iron warriors.


As it should be. You should not be playing Iron Warriors for FNP. You play IW to hide in forts and blow things up with templates. And if you get lucky with warlord traits....to make Oblits un-suck. However I think the IWs got shafted pretty hard in legions. Its biggest draw is re-rolling barrage and ordinance.....which our codex has all of two units that provide either. And one of them is really really bad (defiler). If the re-roll rule was changed to add in blast it would have been very nice and a big reason to take IWs outside of fluff reasons. or better yet, it should not have been a formation bonus but a legion trait so you could use IA 13 for tanks the IW should have in the first place. Its not as bad as rubric heavy TS or WBs, so that is saying something, I guess.


I was simply correcting the person who said nurgle CSM weren't fearless and didn't have FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
I'm so dumbfounded by the whole conversation that I think I'll disengage.

As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.

Anywho.


You're acting like rules are decided by applying outside of game logic. Nowhere else's do you decide rules asked on what makes sense lore-wise, so why start here. Nowhere does it say that this counts as having used the jump pack movement. You can scoff all you want, but if you're going to start applying things that aren't in the rule because "it makes sense" you should be prepared to rewrite the entire rule book.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 14:00:41


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




.. an ability that allows oblits to fire the same weapon every turn?


There's so much stuff in the TL book that it's entirely possible I missed that rule, but can you tell me where you saw that? It would be awesome if so! The "Cult of Destruction" Empyrionic Guidance Rituals state that they can fire twice in the same shooting phase (at the same target) but must do so using different attacks and cannot use a weapon that was fired in the previous shooting phase.

RE: the rest of the book -

Like others have said, we will need to give the book some time to see how it really shakes out. There is so much in this book that I fully expect some unanticipated combos popping up that could be surprisingly powerful. That said, GW is building a house on top of a completely wrecked foundation with this supplement. For me, one of the single biggest issues is how grossly over-costed 99% of the CSM units are. GW took an interesting approach here by trying to give you MORE for that same point cost (which is an interesting way of trying to make them more points efficient imo) in terms of being able to get free marks and free VOTLW for a lot of units, but I think the points values will still be what holds CSM back.

Over-all though, man do I LOVE this book. As a CSM player I honestly feel like this book gave me everything I've been wanting since the Gav Thorpe codex. Better late than never I suppose. Really though, we got legion rules, we got some very cool formations/decurions, and we got some very subtle things I would not have expected. For example, I've been saying since the 6th ED book came out that it was ridiculous to take away that LD point just so that they could charge us for VOTLW to get the point back. That's free now with a lot of these new formations. Little things like that really make me like this book. It also added back the flavor we've been missing for YEARS, and come on! How can you not be psyched about the psychic powers!

Over-all I don't know how much more powerful we got with this, but we certainly got just about everything we asked for and it's a MASSIVE improvement from where we were! Thumbs up from me for sure!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
Why would you want to mark cultists? They end up pretty overpriced.

THANK YOU. Out of everything I've seen in this thread, this was by far the worst complaint I saw.

If you care that much, Typhus still turns them into Zombies. Yeah they won't get FNP against Scatterbikes but who cares?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






You don't, not really. There is an Iron Warriors Warlord trait that lets you choose the same weapon in consecutive shooting phases. So even with that, you still cant fire the same gun twice with a cult, but it does let you shoot the same combination in two consecutive turns.
So as far as I'm concerned it's not a thing at all, I really hate all this random rolling during the army building stage. Random Warlord traits especially rub me the wrong way as they are supposed to represent your warlord, aka they are a narrative thing. Random psychic powers, with random warp charges and random harnessing said warp charges only to get randomly denied just makes me roll my eyes.
Plus it just slows down the game for no reason and makes it harder to keep track of who has what if it changes every game, or sometimes even mid game !?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 14:44:48


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Table wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSM HQs when I can avoid it.

Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.

Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.


I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.

The problem with cultists, in this discussion anyhow, is that the legion meant to make the most use of them, does not. AL cultists cannot be marked. This hurts them badly. Furthermore AL cant take the lost and damned formation as core. Which is terrible. So as far as AL is concerned, cultists are not a good choice when using the formation and that kills the formation special rule. So yea, AL got shafted pretty hard to boot. Infil on chosen.cultists and marines is not worth much. Perhaps on plasma chosen if you have a glut of points to run them. Now you may get some mileage with a CaD and adding a lost and damned formation, but you need to ask if infil is worth giving up marks. In this case I do not think it is since you need MoK for those extra attacks and counter attack.


This is why I said 1k Sons got hosed. They're really "Magnus and Friends", aka why you can build renegade lists like "Magnus, Typhus, Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, and Daemon Warp Charge batteries" or so. The actual 1k Sons and Tzaangors and stuff themselves are actually pretty crummy. Like Warpflamers for example. I always wanted to pay 7 points to replace an AP 3 Boltgun on a Slow and Purposeful model with an AP 4 flamer that occasionally gives my foe Feel No Pain. Thanks for an option nobody will ever use, GW, especially since anyone using Helm of the Third Eye is probably attaching themselves to a MOT unit of Oblits anyway.

The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.

Marking Cultists reduces their efficiency. You better have a good reason for it. Poxwalker Cultists in a Vectorium are a good trick for example. Mark of Khorne by itself isn't, and here's why:
A Cultist pays 2 points for each attack base, so 4 points, 2 attacks.
A Mark of Khorne is 2 points on a Cultist. 6 points, 2 attacks, 4 on a charge or 3 when counter-attacked.
If you wish to engage multiple units at once (and you probably do, as Cultist units can get rather large anyway), you're making a Disordered Charge, and thus don't get the bonuses from Rage, +1 attack on the charge, etc. Quite literally you're paying points to handicap yourself by justifying attacking only a single unit at a time as otherwise you're paying points for nothing. For every 2 Cultists with MoK, you could have just taken another Cultist.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Why would you want to mark cultists? They end up pretty overpriced.

THANK YOU. Out of everything I've seen in this thread, this was by far the worst complaint I saw.

If you care that much, Typhus still turns them into Zombies. Yeah they won't get FNP against Scatterbikes but who cares?


Marked cultists have their place. Its not a rock hard must take and I nor anyone has said differently. Sometimes I find myself in agreement with your posts, this time I do not. But it is interesting that you complain about marks costing to much on cultists but then proceed to tell us to bring typhus to make up for it.

The point I myself am making is that the AL , which should produce the best cultist lists by lore, is missing many options when it comes to said cultists. While others have stated AL is bad, I have not. I am simply asserting that it to bad GW missed the boat on this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Roknar wrote:
You don't, not really. There is an Iron Warriors Warlord trait that lets you choose the same weapon in consecutive shooting phases. So even with that, you still cant fire the same gun twice with a cult, but it does let you shoot the same combination in two consecutive turns.
So as far as I'm concerned it's not a thing at all, I really hate all this random rolling during the army building stage. Random Warlord traits especially rub me the wrong way as they are supposed to represent your warlord, aka they are a narrative thing. Random psychic powers, with random warp charges and random harnessing said warp charges only to get randomly denied just makes me roll my eyes.
Plus it just slows down the game for no reason and makes it harder to keep track of who has what if it changes every game, or sometimes even mid game !?


One of my biggest hopes for 8th is to make warlord traits chosen instead of random. I doubt this will happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 15:09:23


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 MagicJuggler wrote:
Table wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
Thousand Sons got hosed. I feel everyone else got a free pass. Word Bearers have two non-bonuses to their CAD, but their Warlord Table and Grand Host are good. The Malefic Tome is cheap and utilitarian enough that I honestly don't care if the rest of the relics are trash, especially since it's still possible to take a Burning Brand should I want a second HQ. As a whole, I try not to include more than two CSM HQs when I can avoid it.

Summoning on 3+ rerollable is nice, since I feel it lets me reliably summon on 5 dice. An allied Paradox Sorcerer lets me auto-summon on 5 dice too. A ML 3 Sorcerer, ML2 Herald, and 2 units of Blue Horrors is 9 WC, plus a D6=10 at the minimum, meaning I can reliably reinforce with 2 Daemon units/turn, to offset other losses. Lore of Nurgle was legitimately buffed to be a valid support discipline, so I also don't feel as bad taking a Palanquin for the extra wounds.

Fun fact: Point for point, the Chaos Cultist throws down more melee attacks than any other model in the game. 4 points for 2 attacks, or 3 on the charge. They die before they bring most to bear, and don't hit hard, but they become dangerous when buffed. The humble Cultist becomes a lot scarier when it gets Poison, S4/T4, or Furious Charge.


I think TS can build a strong list. It just does not include rubrics. And that is sad for many reasons. They certainly got shafted on the formation special rule of re-rolling ones. No one is going to take 9 units of terminators. No one. Even if they had the points. It was pointless to even include the rule.
But TS does have some very very good relics and scarab occult terminators are actualy a decent unit in conjunction with relics and buffing. I cannot comment on Tzzangers because I do not have any. On paper they look......ok when in their formation. Exalted sorcs are very good as they are pretty much a lower WS chaos lord + psyker in one unit with the added once per game blast-lance las cannon shot. Its really just rubrics and the formations that got shafted.

The problem with cultists, in this discussion anyhow, is that the legion meant to make the most use of them, does not. AL cultists cannot be marked. This hurts them badly. Furthermore AL cant take the lost and damned formation as core. Which is terrible. So as far as AL is concerned, cultists are not a good choice when using the formation and that kills the formation special rule. So yea, AL got shafted pretty hard to boot. Infil on chosen.cultists and marines is not worth much. Perhaps on plasma chosen if you have a glut of points to run them. Now you may get some mileage with a CaD and adding a lost and damned formation, but you need to ask if infil is worth giving up marks. In this case I do not think it is since you need MoK for those extra attacks and counter attack.


This is why I said 1k Sons got hosed. They're really "Magnus and Friends", aka why you can build renegade lists like "Magnus, Typhus, Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, and Daemon Warp Charge batteries" or so. The actual 1k Sons and Tzaangors and stuff themselves are actually pretty crummy. Like Warpflamers for example. I always wanted to pay 7 points to replace an AP 3 Boltgun on a Slow and Purposeful model with an AP 4 flamer that occasionally gives my foe Feel No Pain. Thanks for an option nobody will ever use, GW, especially since anyone using Helm of the Third Eye is probably attaching themselves to a MOT unit of Oblits anyway.

The Tzaangor Formation is actually fairly broken, and not in a good way. Only the Tzaangors themselves get run and charge. This means you can't actually attach anyone to their unit, even their Formation's sorcerer, meaning they're not fearless. Meaning they could hurt a few Eldar scatbikes or so conceivably...assuming they get there. Then the Wraithknight mops them up.

Marking Cultists reduces their efficiency. You better have a good reason for it. Poxwalker Cultists in a Vectorium are a good trick for example. Mark of Khorne by itself isn't, and here's why:
A Cultist pays 2 points for each attack base, so 4 points, 2 attacks.
A Mark of Khorne is 2 points on a Cultist. 6 points, 2 attacks, 4 on a charge or 3 when counter-attacked.
If you wish to engage multiple units at once (and you probably do, as Cultist units can get rather large anyway), you're making a Disordered Charge, and thus don't get the bonuses from Rage, +1 attack on the charge, etc. Quite literally you're paying points to handicap yourself by justifying attacking only a single unit at a time as otherwise you're paying points for nothing. For every 2 Cultists with MoK, you could have just taken another Cultist.


Good reply. I have to disagree with you on a few minor points. I do think you can make a strong TS list without dipping into other legions. You just wont be using more rubrics than is the bare minimum if at all. I am a fan of the occult terminators and I do not think you can argue that at worst, they are a decent unit. Once more, I cannot comment on tzzangors. I would not run them. But we can agree that GW was smoking some serious herb when writing the rules for 1ksons. Alot of wtf moments when reading Wrath of Magnus were had. The 7 point flamers probably being the most wtf moment. Despite it all, you can fashion some good solid lists with 1ksons. It could have just been SOOOO much better. And that is my overall feeling with TL. Alot of missed marks to give chaos players some rock solid lists. We are destined for b grade I am afraid. Lets hope 8th proves me wrong.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







I can at least see the case for the Scarab Occult as a support-piece. The only thing that annoys me is that the Sorcerer has the Champion of Chaos rule, and you can't sub the unit into any formation that requires Terminators (like a Black Legion Warband or Chaos Warband). You'll ideally want shoot your Inferno Boltguns first before using your Specials, because the last thing you want is your expensive ML 2 Sorcerer to turn into a spawn from an unlucky roll, just because he shot a Tactical Sergeant alongside the rest of his unit!

Other than that, I have some issues with the Alpha Legion Warlord table being trash (and having one result that arguably breaks the game), and Iron Warrior relics being trash, but other than that I'm pleasantly satisfied.
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

 Roknar wrote:
The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CAD WE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.

All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WE lol.


Personnaly i'm thinking of a WE Warband+with a CAD to field a Land Raider , Mauler and a minimum ally KDK to get the Soulgrinder, wich is far better then a defiler for much less of the price.

An alternative would be to take a Fist of the Gods, for the raider and 2-3 Vindis.

   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






Wouldn't it be easier in that case to settle for a plague hulk? They're almost as good as a soulgrinder, but you wouldn't need to get all the min req units for KDK?
Nurgle and Khorne aren't sworn enemies so it's not a complete fluff abomination at least.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 20:51:16


 
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

WHile the Plague hulk mouth weapon is a AP3 template.

The Rot cannon is just Str6, it as rending and its an AP3 ordinance weapon, but that low Strength, ugh...

I take the Soulgrinder because its still a Str8 ordinance weapon, wich with some luck can still glance AV14, but that Rot cannon ca only glance AV13 at best.

If it was Str7, then yeah i would consider it.

   
 
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