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 Imateria wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


Aspect Warriors:
I'd much rather see aspect warriors have less impressive raw firepower or a higher price tag and keep their special rules. The special rules are what give most units their unique play style and personality.

I think rules wise the only Aspect Warriors that need much changing are the Howling Banshees and the Shining Spears, neither of which are much good. As for the others, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks and Dark Reapers are fine as is, Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders though need a notable points increase.

I say Shining Spears get Hit And Run instead of Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders are already stupid mobile as is. They don't need to be able to get out of combat too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


Aspect Warriors:
I'd much rather see aspect warriors have less impressive raw firepower or a higher price tag and keep their special rules. The special rules are what give most units their unique play style and personality.

I think rules wise the only Aspect Warriors that need much changing are the Howling Banshees and the Shining Spears, neither of which are much good. As for the others, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks and Dark Reapers are fine as is, Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders though need a notable points increase.

I say Shining Spears get Hit And Run instead of Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders are already stupid mobile as is. They don't need to be able to get out of combat too.

I think it's one of those rules that's good for showing fluff but nobody remembered balance is a thing.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


Aspect Warriors:
I'd much rather see aspect warriors have less impressive raw firepower or a higher price tag and keep their special rules. The special rules are what give most units their unique play style and personality.

I think rules wise the only Aspect Warriors that need much changing are the Howling Banshees and the Shining Spears, neither of which are much good. As for the others, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks and Dark Reapers are fine as is, Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders though need a notable points increase.

I say Shining Spears get Hit And Run instead of Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders are already stupid mobile as is. They don't need to be able to get out of combat too.

I think it's one of those rules that's good for showing fluff but nobody remembered balance is a thing.

I think it also might have been for simplicity's sake. Rather than adding a "new" rule that behaved kinda/sorta like Hit and Run...they just threw H&R on there and called it a day.

Personally, if it were me?

I would add the following to Flickerjump:

Also when the target of a declared Charge, a Warp Spider unit can opt to Flickerjump away if they have not done so against shooting attacks that round.

Gives a bit more utility to Flickerjump, but makes it so that the controlling player has to pick and choose when to Flickerjump.

Additionally for the "1 in 3" versus "It's all in the kits" debate:

Windriders can be upgraded to Zephyrborne for an additional "X points per model". Units of Zephyrborne remove the restriction of one in every three models bearing a weapon from the Eldar Heavy Weapons list and gain additional <Ballistic Skill/Initiative/whatever>.

I think the simplest change to Warp Spiders is:

Change their type to Infantry, and remove Hit & Run and reword Flickerjump as follows:

"Once per full game turn (meaning you must wait for every player to have a turn before you can use it again), a unit of Warp Spiders may Flickerjump. To do this, nominate a single direction and move 2d6" in that direction, ignoring any intervening models or terrain. Any models that end up in impassible terrain or within 1" of an enemy unit must instantly take a Dangerous Terrain test or take a wound with no Armor Save allowed; move any such models the minimum distance needed to clear any such obstructions."

It would allow for some tricky stuff (using Flickerjump to avoid being hit by a Mawloc, or to jump in front of a unit just as it's about to be assaulted), but it would ultimately reduce their overall mobility as they're jumping once per turn rather than potentially 2-3 times. It also means they're an "aggressive defense" line infantry unit, rather than a DS alphastrike unit of doom.

Beyond that, I'm a fan of giving Dire Avengers a 3+ save (they *are* the Aspect Temple dedicated to the balanced art of attack and defense), and giving Guardian Jetbikes a 4+ save. It would be fitting with the "fragile Jetbike" trope in turn.

While not the easiest and quickest thing to do, IMHO the best imaginable thing GW could make to ballance Eldar while keeping all the flavour is to actually... expand them. Make different craftworlds unique again, let only Saim Hann take 1-in-3 bikes as troops and only Saim Hann 3-in-3 bikes as FA or HS, but at the same time disallow Wraithknights and few other choices in Saim Hann armies. Put similiar restrictions and unique playstyles on all described Craftworlds and establish some nice rules (improved and rebalanced Pale Courts) for creating your own...

As to quick solutions: Warp Spiders with s5 and scatterlasers remaining 4 shots but 24" s5 weapons on bikes is what works best in my games and makes shuricanons relevant option again.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Honestly, scatter lasers are good, but they're only really OP when you can spam a ton of them cheaply. On things like falcons and serpents, you're basically paying over 100 points for a durable, non-rending assault cannon.

True, but don't forget that assault cannons are 20 points on all platforms. They also don't have the range that scatter laser have which is easily equivalent to the loss of rending points-wise. Especially when you consider that all scatter lasers come with BS 4 now. Back when guardians, jetbikes and war walkers all had BS3, the 5 point tag made more sense.

Zustiur wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Honestly, scatter lasers are good, but they're only really OP when you can spam a ton of them cheaply. On things like falcons and serpents, you're basically paying over 100 points for a durable, non-rending assault cannon.

True, but don't forget that assault cannons are 20 points on all platforms. They also don't have the range that scatter laser have which is easily equivalent to the loss of rending points-wise. Especially when you consider that all scatter lasers come with BS 4 now. Back when guardians, jetbikes and war walkers all had BS3, the 5 point tag made more sense.

Assault Cannons also have much better AP.

pm713 wrote:

Zustiur wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Honestly, scatter lasers are good, but they're only really OP when you can spam a ton of them cheaply. On things like falcons and serpents, you're basically paying over 100 points for a durable, non-rending assault cannon.

True, but don't forget that assault cannons are 20 points on all platforms. They also don't have the range that scatter laser have which is easily equivalent to the loss of rending points-wise. Especially when you consider that all scatter lasers come with BS 4 now. Back when guardians, jetbikes and war walkers all had BS3, the 5 point tag made more sense.

Assault Cannons also have much better AP.

Which doesn't matter in cover, as the Scatterlasers don't care.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Zustiur wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Honestly, scatter lasers are good, but they're only really OP when you can spam a ton of them cheaply. On things like falcons and serpents, you're basically paying over 100 points for a durable, non-rending assault cannon.

True, but don't forget that assault cannons are 20 points on all platforms. They also don't have the range that scatter laser have which is easily equivalent to the loss of rending points-wise. Especially when you consider that all scatter lasers come with BS 4 now. Back when guardians, jetbikes and war walkers all had BS3, the 5 point tag made more sense.

Assault Cannons also have much better AP.

Which doesn't matter in cover, as the Scatterlasers don't care.

Don't know about you but the boards I play on include things like cover that isn't as good as your armour. In fact some parts aren't even cover.

AP 4 is a failure because of ease of getting a 5+ cover save.

Martel732 wrote:
AP 4 is a failure because of ease of getting a 5+ cover save.

4+ is better than 5+. Again there's also no cover sometimes. That's a thing.

Actually, I like the Zephyrborne idea.

Maybe make Windriders as they were in 6e but reducing their save to 4+ (1 heavy weapon in 3, and then only shuriken cannons), but then allow, for 10ppm, an upgrade to be Zephyrborne Jetbikes, changing their battlefield role to Fast Attack, gaining A2, Sv 3+ and having the ability to take a heavy weapon on each model.

Of course, that should go along with scatter lasers changing to S5 AP-, and going up to 15 points. So, now "scatpacks" are 42ppm instead of 27 and take a Fast Attack slot.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
AP 4 is a failure because of ease of getting a 5+ cover save.

4+ is better than 5+. Again there's also no cover sometimes. That's a thing.

It's not ENOUGH better for what the heavy bolter and assault cannon give up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, I like the Zephyrborne idea.

Maybe make Windriders as they were in 6e but reducing their save to 4+ (1 heavy weapon in 3, and then only shuriken cannons), but then allow, for 10ppm, an upgrade to be Zephyrborne Jetbikes, changing their battlefield role to Fast Attack, gaining A2, Sv 3+ and having the ability to take a heavy weapon on each model.

Of course, that should go along with scatter lasers changing to S5 AP-, and going up to 15 points. So, now "scatpacks" are 42ppm instead of 27 and take a Fast Attack slot.

You don't need to do all that, actually. Proper pricing of the scatterlaser makes it so it doesn't matter how many they take. 4+ armor instead of 3+ changes their dynamic a LOT as well. Making the scatterlaser Str 5 also completely changes the dynamic as well.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, I like the Zephyrborne idea.

Maybe make Windriders as they were in 6e but reducing their save to 4+ (1 heavy weapon in 3, and then only shuriken cannons), but then allow, for 10ppm, an upgrade to be Zephyrborne Jetbikes, changing their battlefield role to Fast Attack, gaining A2, Sv 3+ and having the ability to take a heavy weapon on each model.

Of course, that should go along with scatter lasers changing to S5 AP-, and going up to 15 points. So, now "scatpacks" are 42ppm instead of 27 and take a Fast Attack slot.

You don't need to do all that, actually. Proper pricing of the scatterlaser makes it so it doesn't matter how many they take. 4+ armor instead of 3+ changes their dynamic a LOT as well. Making the scatterlaser Str 5 also completely changes the dynamic as well.

That's a good point. That's actually why I suggested making the scatter laser S5 and the starcannon S7 earlier, simply to fix the weird internal balance.

I don't see why we have to kill the Scatterlaser profile. Make them 15 points and make Windriders 4+.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't see why we have to kill the Scatterlaser profile. Make them 15 points and make Windriders 4+.

There's always spite. Also, 15 pts is still too cheap for 4 36" S6 shots in 7th ed. S6 is simply far too valuable. 80% of vehicles just crumble. As for the 4+, that would have to be playtested as AP 4 is very much an Imperial thing.

I don't see why Windriders should get a better save out of their bikes than Reavers or Skyweavers, to be honest. Make them all 4+.

Because a misprint in rogue trader made it so.

 Robin5t wrote:
I don't see why Windriders should get a better save out of their bikes than Reavers or Skyweavers, to be honest. Make them all 4+.

The reasoning was that Windriders are actually armored, with Guardians having a 5+ save versus Wyches[the unit that got mounted on Reavers] having a lesser save, same with the Harlequins only having an Invuln on Skyweavers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, I like the Zephyrborne idea.

Maybe make Windriders as they were in 6e but reducing their save to 4+ (1 heavy weapon in 3, and then only shuriken cannons), but then allow, for 10ppm, an upgrade to be Zephyrborne Jetbikes, changing their battlefield role to Fast Attack, gaining A2, Sv 3+ and having the ability to take a heavy weapon on each model.

Of course, that should go along with scatter lasers changing to S5 AP-, and going up to 15 points. So, now "scatpacks" are 42ppm instead of 27 and take a Fast Attack slot.

Ehhh...I'd keep them as a Troops slot. Rangers to Pathfinders doesn't change their Battlefield Role.

And while we're at it, Pathfinders need to make a comeback.

Martel732 wrote:
... as AP 4 is very much an Imperial thing...

Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome, with the most AP4 weapon profiles of any Codex in Warhammer 40k to date, the newest members of the Imperium!

*drumroll*

The Tau!

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
... as AP 4 is very much an Imperial thing...

Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome, with the most AP4 weapon profiles of any Codex in Warhammer 40k to date, the newest members of the Imperium!

*drumroll*

The Tau!

Okay, them too. When I think Tau, I think ion accelerator. My apologies.

No clearly Tyranids are the AP4 faction. Their guns don't really get any better
Can we get our honorary imperial citizenship too?

But that means the change to 4+ might be enough. Sounds like the Tau can make them jink a lot.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
... as AP 4 is very much an Imperial thing...

Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome, with the most AP4 weapon profiles of any Codex in Warhammer 40k to date, the newest members of the Imperium!

*drumroll*

The Tau!

Okay, them too. When I think Tau, I think ion accelerator. My apologies.

Just because the Blood Angels are third behind Tau and Tyranids (Who have been summarily disqualified for inflating their count with a fake weapon. I mean, "flamespurt cannon"? Imaginary. And named by someone even worse than GW's naming team.) (/kidding) doesn't mean the rest of the Imperium is overloaded with AP4 weaponry.

Heavy bolter. Assault cannon. Auto cannon. Heavy flamer.

Heavy bolters are especially common as hull weapons and sponson weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy bolter. Assault cannon. Auto cannon. Heavy flamer.

Heavy bolters are especially common as hull weapons and sponson weapons.

And ion weapons/missile pods (in Tau)/Spore Mines and venom cannons (Tyranids) aren't common?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy bolter. Assault cannon. Auto cannon. Heavy flamer.

Heavy bolters are especially common as hull weapons and sponson weapons.

And ion weapons/missile pods (in Tau)/Spore Mines and venom cannons (Tyranids) aren't common?

Strictly speaking, the Imperial equivalents are far more common simply because of the number of armies contained within them that have access to those weapons.

Basically every Imperial army(and Chaos Marines and now even Genestealer Cultists) have access to Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, and Heavy Flamers in one form or another. Whether it's a vehicle mounted version or an infantry version, I can field far more Heavy Bolters or Autocannons than I can Ion Weapons or Missile Pods in a Tau list.

Ion Rifles are AP4 and are on Pathfinders only, Interceptor Drones(on the Sun Shark Bombers) have twin-linked Ion Rifles. Cyclic Ion Blasters are AP4 as well and are only available to Crisis Suits/Commanders. Quad Ion Turrets are AP4 and only available on the Razorshark Strike Fighter. The Cyclic Ion Raker is AP4 and only available to Ghostkeels.
Ion Cannons are AP3(only available to Hammerheads) and Ion Accelerators are AP2(on all variable fire modes) are only available to Riptides.
Missile Pods are similarly restrictive, only recently becoming available to Fire Warriors with the turrets added in the Strike and Breacher Teams. Otherwise, they're strictly on Crisis Suits. Broadsides, Hammerheads, Riptides, Devilfish, and Stormsurges get Smart Missile Systems rather than Missile Pods. Strike and Breacher Teams can also take SMS for their turret options.
The SMS are AP5 rather than AP4 as well.

I can't comment on Tyranids as I don't have to deal with them much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy bolter. Assault cannon. Auto cannon. Heavy flamer.

Heavy bolters are especially common as hull weapons and sponson weapons.

And ion weapons/missile pods (in Tau)/Spore Mines and venom cannons (Tyranids) aren't common?

Strictly speaking, the Imperial equivalents are far more common simply because of the number of armies contained within them that have access to those weapons.

Basically every Imperial army(and Chaos Marines and now even Genestealer Cultists) have access to Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, and Heavy Flamers in one form or another. Whether it's a vehicle mounted version or an infantry version, I can field far more Heavy Bolters or Autocannons than I can Ion Weapons or Missile Pods in a Tau list.

Ion Rifles are AP4 and are on Pathfinders only, Interceptor Drones(on the Sun Shark Bombers) have twin-linked Ion Rifles. Cyclic Ion Blasters are AP4 as well and are only available to Crisis Suits/Commanders. Quad Ion Turrets are AP4 and only available on the Razorshark Strike Fighter. The Cyclic Ion Raker is AP4 and only available to Ghostkeels.
Ion Cannons are AP3(only available to Hammerheads) and Ion Accelerators are AP2(on all variable fire modes) are only available to Riptides.
Missile Pods are similarly restrictive, only recently becoming available to Fire Warriors with the turrets added in the Strike and Breacher Teams. Otherwise, they're strictly on Crisis Suits. Broadsides, Hammerheads, Riptides, Devilfish, and Stormsurges get Smart Missile Systems rather than Missile Pods. Strike and Breacher Teams can also take SMS for their turret options.
The SMS are AP5 rather than AP4 as well.

I can't comment on Tyranids as I don't have to deal with them much.

This was my point. I've seen IG lists with 40 heavy bolters.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy bolter. Assault cannon. Auto cannon. Heavy flamer.

Heavy bolters are especially common as hull weapons and sponson weapons.

And ion weapons/missile pods (in Tau)/Spore Mines and venom cannons (Tyranids) aren't common?

Strictly speaking, the Imperial equivalents are far more common simply because of the number of armies contained within them that have access to those weapons.

Basically every Imperial army(and Chaos Marines and now even Genestealer Cultists) have access to Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, and Heavy Flamers in one form or another. Whether it's a vehicle mounted version or an infantry version, I can field far more Heavy Bolters or Autocannons than I can Ion Weapons or Missile Pods in a Tau list.

Ion Rifles are AP4 and are on Pathfinders only, Interceptor Drones(on the Sun Shark Bombers) have twin-linked Ion Rifles. Cyclic Ion Blasters are AP4 as well and are only available to Crisis Suits/Commanders. Quad Ion Turrets are AP4 and only available on the Razorshark Strike Fighter. The Cyclic Ion Raker is AP4 and only available to Ghostkeels.
Ion Cannons are AP3(only available to Hammerheads) and Ion Accelerators are AP2(on all variable fire modes) are only available to Riptides.
Missile Pods are similarly restrictive, only recently becoming available to Fire Warriors with the turrets added in the Strike and Breacher Teams. Otherwise, they're strictly on Crisis Suits. Broadsides, Hammerheads, Riptides, Devilfish, and Stormsurges get Smart Missile Systems rather than Missile Pods. Strike and Breacher Teams can also take SMS for their turret options.
The SMS are AP5 rather than AP4 as well.

I can't comment on Tyranids as I don't have to deal with them much.

The stock Eldar vehicle armament has pseudo-Rending, but I wouldn't call Rending an 'Eldar thing'. Similarly the stock Tau vehicle armament is AP5, that doesn't make AP5 a 'Tau thing' (that said S5/AP5 might as well be).

I thought I was pointing out the silliness of Martel's initial statement that AP4 is 'an Imperial thing', but we've actually come across a deeper point here, that Imperial stock vehicle armament has better AP than its xeno equivalents. Take that, 'Xeno shooting beats Imperial shooting' thesis!

But said AP is largely worthless because of cover and the low quality of armor being negated.

Xeno shooting is much better than Imperial shooting because of specific mathematical phenomena that GW has put into the game. And the platforms. The difference in platforms is enormous.

Heavy bolters are vastly inferior to scatterlasers because of the loss of strength and a shot. The step from S5 to S6 is enormous in 7th. Much more important than AP 6 to AP 4.