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 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use. It completely bypasses the rules, the text, and everything else. That's why it was such a big issue when SW's first came out and they had that line psyker power that made you take I tests or be removed.

A great couple of games, it got me back into watching Twitch. I think the live aspect of it made it more interesting than the ones on Youtube.

 nintura wrote:
That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use.

"Don't kill my Wraithknight! I wanted to use it to kill you!"

I'm not buying it. I get that losing a model is not fun for the person losing it, but that's the game. Helfrost is not spammable, most of the weapons that have it are single-shot non-TL affairs, and there's precisely two melee weapons I'm aware of that have it, one of which is a Relic and the other of which is a Thunder Hammer only equippable by Iron Priests. It's fine.

 BBAP wrote:

 nintura wrote:
That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use.

"Don't kill my Wraithknight! I wanted to use it to kill you!"

Is there a purpose for taking anything in the game other than facilitating the enemies' deaths?

The wraith knight doesn't get removed by helfrost becuse of being a GMC. That mostly what the complaints are abotu if you ask me. This is exactly the reason why magnus should have been a GMC.
Or in a more sane world, eternal warrior should really stop that too.

Or GMC also gets removed so that everyone is on the same boat.

Yea. Making everythign OP is no way to balance stuff, but I'd rather have everything be OP than the current "this cycle of codices is OP so let's tone down the volume on the next cycle" thing

 Gunzhard wrote:

Ruin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

40K has "a very high learning curve", and the codex is BRAND new... but completely irrational overreactions are only ok when it's negative about GW apparently.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough*AHAHAHAHAHAHA

In 40k you often know the results just looking at the list. Please don't go on this way. You will just hurt yourself.

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use. It completely bypasses the rules, the text, and everything else. That's why it was such a big issue when SW's first came out and they had that line psyker power that made you take I tests or be removed.

So then get angry about magnus, ya know the giant flying monster with 2 D shots a turn (3 if your opponent has D). Get angry about the wraithknights and the S, not a silly rule that has never come into play in any game I have played.

 Roknar wrote:
Yea. Making everythign OP is no way to balance stuff, but I'd rather have everything be OP than the current "this cycle of codices is OP so let's tone down the volume on the next cycle" thing

"When everyone is OP, no one is," was the philosophy behind the Overwatch character design. Ultimate abilities in particular, I think.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Ruin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

40K has "a very high learning curve", and the codex is BRAND new... but completely irrational overreactions are only ok when it's negative about GW apparently.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough*AHAHAHAHAHAHA

In 40k you often know the results just looking at the list. Please don't go on this way. You will just hurt yourself.

What's funny is that just looking in this thread alone, you can see that plenty of folks haven't learned the game yet. I'd agree that the list does, unfortunately, most often determine the win... but there is absolutely a very high learning curve. Blame GW and their scattered rules, or too many codex and too many supplements if you want - but I've yet to meet anyone that knew all the rules.

Do you know all the rules Kaiyanwang?

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Ruin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

40K has "a very high learning curve", and the codex is BRAND new... but completely irrational overreactions are only ok when it's negative about GW apparently.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough*AHAHAHAHAHAHA

In 40k you often know the results just looking at the list. Please don't go on this way. You will just hurt yourself.

What's funny is that just looking in this thread alone, you can see that plenty of folks haven't learned the game yet. I'd agree that the list does, unfortunately, most often determine the win... but there is absolutely a very high learning curve. Blame GW and their scattered rules, or too many codex and too many supplements if you want - but I've yet to meet anyone that knew all the rules.

Do you know all the rules Kaiyanwang?

I don't accept any comparison between WMH and 40k, but concerning the rest, I take the point and go home with the tail low.
(I know a good bunch, but I would be probably be taken by surprise by formations alone).

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Ruin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

40K has "a very high learning curve", and the codex is BRAND new... but completely irrational overreactions are only ok when it's negative about GW apparently.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*cough*AHAHAHAHAHAHA

In 40k you often know the results just looking at the list. Please don't go on this way. You will just hurt yourself.

What's funny is that just looking in this thread alone, you can see that plenty of folks haven't learned the game yet. I'd agree that the list does, unfortunately, most often determine the win... but there is absolutely a very high learning curve. Blame GW and their scattered rules, or too many codex and too many supplements if you want - but I've yet to meet anyone that knew all the rules.

Do you know all the rules Kaiyanwang?

I don't accept any comparison between WMH and 40k, but concerning the rest, I take the point and go home with the tail low.
(I know a good bunch, but I would be probably be taken by surprise by formations alone).

Hah wow, answers with humility are so unexpected here, and I have to admit I know nothing about WMH.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use. It completely bypasses the rules, the text, and everything else. That's why it was such a big issue when SW's first came out and they had that line psyker power that made you take I tests or be removed.

So then get angry about magnus, ya know the giant flying monster with 2 D shots a turn (3 if your opponent has D). Get angry about the wraithknights and the S, not a silly rule that has never come into play in any game I have played.

Ive played magnus. He's not a serious threat. I got first turn against a tau player, and did a whopping two wounds with both S: D hits. Yes, that's unlucky, but he doesn't do much damage for a 650 point model. Yes, he absorbs a gak load of shots, but he did not impress me at all. Exalted sorcerers on the other hand are much better. But for 650 points, Magnus is not impressive.

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use. It completely bypasses the rules, the text, and everything else. That's why it was such a big issue when SW's first came out and they had that line psyker power that made you take I tests or be removed.

So then get angry about magnus, ya know the giant flying monster with 2 D shots a turn (3 if your opponent has D). Get angry about the wraithknights and the S, not a silly rule that has never come into play in any game I have played.

Ive played magnus. He's not a serious threat. I got first turn against a tau player, and did a whopping two wounds with both S: D hits. Yes, that's unlucky, but he doesn't do much damage for a 650 point model. Yes, he absorbs a gak load of shots, but he did not impress me at all. Exalted sorcerers on the other hand are much better. But for 650 points, Magnus is not impressive.

I am not speaking of overall power of magnus, just Strength D.

I've played against him, and ignoring the passive death toll he took on my army, he has abillities that can (and will given statistical rolls) completely remove models from play, which is apparently "toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use".

And I agree. S: D should not remove a model. It should be super powerful for sure. But not strictly remove. It could be something as simple as d6+3 if you roll a 6. Sure it has a chance to kill your big model, but it isn't guaranteed at least. There's no reason to progress from 1 wound > d3 wounds > d6 wounds > remove. That kind of power leap is just uncalled for.

Too many things have EW anyway, I welcome anything that gets rid of e'm easy.

 nintura wrote:
And I agree. S: D should not remove a model. It should be super powerful for sure. But not strictly remove. It could be something as simple as d6+3 if you roll a 6. Sure it has a chance to kill your big model, but it isn't guaranteed at least. There's no reason to progress from 1 wound > d3 wounds > d6 wounds > remove. That kind of power leap is just uncalled for.

I completely agree.

My argument simply lies in the fact that the rule is good, but it is so situational, as most of the of big guys you wanna remove with it need to either fail multiple rolls (Invuln/armour/cover saves depending, LoS, then a S test) or fail a S test, one a six or something of the sort.

It isn't an issue and doesn't really deserve to be complained about.

 nintura wrote:
And I agree. S: D should not remove a model. It should be super powerful for sure. But not strictly remove. It could be something as simple as d6+3 if you roll a 6. Sure it has a chance to kill your big model, but it isn't guaranteed at least. There's no reason to progress from 1 wound > d3 wounds > d6 wounds > remove. That kind of power leap is just uncalled for.

D doesn't straight up remove a model though. 2-5 is d3 wounds saveable as normal, which is totally fine.
6 causes a massive 6+d6 wounds, which is enough to kill like 95% of models in one shot, including forgeworld superheavies. And that's just from the guaranteed wounds.
Yet you could still save against that and have it be fine, but nooo they had to go and make that unsaveable.

Considering all the re-rollable invulnerable saves and abundance of 3+ invulnerables a 6 would be quite manageable. It could even ignore cover saves and still be ok imho.
One slip up though and you are fittingly destroyed. And the really big stuff comes with void shields to warrant that kind of destructive power.
Removing all saves though means it may as well outright remove models.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too many things have EW anyway, I welcome anything that gets rid of e'm easy.

Then you lack strategy and like easy "I win" buttons.

Ruin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


People kept saying that about Warmahordes but all I remember is turn one death's from a balanced and fair competitive gameset.

So? This is no the fault of the rules. With respect; that's the fault of the player. Yes, WMH has a very high learning curve and you have to be aware of threat ranges of things etc. (which is less of problem now with premeasuring). But to blame your caster getting assassinated on turn 1 because of the rules of the game is patently false. You can block charge lanes, LOS, have things with counter charge. All these things and more can prevent such a thing from occurring.

I guess then it wasn't for me, considering that everyone I seemed to play with seemed to run assassin lists and I was just straight up new it just soured my opinion on the matter.

Deathblow:" The models suffers a hit that wound automatically and causes it to lose D6+6 wounds instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit."

It doesn't remove the model, but it also has the instant death special rule and counts as S10, which eternal warrior and GMC both turn into d3 wound instead.

What eternal warrior doesn't do, is turn "remove outright" into d3. GMC on the other hand does. Hence why Magnus went poof.

 nintura wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too many things have EW anyway, I welcome anything that gets rid of e'm easy.

Then you lack strategy and like easy "I win" buttons.

OR perhaps I am so good that I don't need the EW crutch to keep my important units alive. Who knows? Or I dislike the face that character X doesn't go poof when an artillery shell the size of him falls on him, but character Y goes poof when a meltagun is pointed at him.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too many things have EW anyway, I welcome anything that gets rid of e'm easy.

Then you lack strategy and like easy "I win" buttons.

OR perhaps I am so good that I don't need the EW crutch to keep my important units alive. Who knows? Or I dislike the face that character X doesn't go poof when an artillery shell the size of him falls on him, but character Y goes poof when a meltagun is pointed at him.

Then you haven't read any of the story. They are meant to survive. This isn't real life, it's sci-fi. Otherwise all artillery would have infinite range and AP 1. They don't. And power armor/terminator armor is far superior to anything

Well I think its stupid, and I am more than happy to remove them with as little effort as possible. Or rather, I'd be happy to do so if I could fit some of that sweet remove from play stuff in my lists, oh well.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well I think its stupid, and I am more than happy to remove them with as little effort as possible. Or rather, I'd be happy to do so if I could fit some of that sweet remove from play stuff in my lists, oh well.

Exactly. Because that's what YOU want. You want the easy way. You don't want your opponent to have fun playing a game. Removing models is not fun, it doesn't require strategy, it's luck. People spend hundreds of dollars and weeks painting a big model, so what's the point of not getting to use them. That's whats toxic.

There's a good part of the models with EW that about infantry sized, too. And I want to have fun in the game, shooting a guy with enough shells to blow a tank and have him walk off almost unhurt is no fun for me.

Ideally, nothing would have EW and there'd be a lot less infantry models with more than a wound, but hey...

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

Here there is none accusing GW (at least, in this instance) of a "rigged corporate charade". You failed spectacularly to understand what people complained about.
We are well aware of the design issue of GW rules. those are not trivial, because they had an impact on the demise of one of their main line (WHFB).

People are not criticising what happened per se, but the fact that GW seems to ignore their own rules. This suggest to most of us that they have not faith in their system, and for a reason, because is an unbalanced, convoluted mess that casts a shadow on a system we all love, or at least want to love. The design team shows more often than not to be clueless and amateurish, and this is just another example. For further evidence of how sloppy they are, check the Codex: Imperial Agents thread.

The frost weapon is just an example of what's wrong with 40k nowadays: useless, unclear, redundant rules that stack on each other, and incoherent fluff added to special snowflakes loved by a designer (this specific designer is infamous for that) that just does not fit with the universe, while other factions are left in the dust. What happens in the report just triggered comments on the weapon. Again, you failed spectacularly to understand that, too.

What does fun means? For me, is to play with my friends a well designed game. None of us is a competitive cheesemonger, but we want to be challenged by the game and by each other, and this can be possible only with a decent ruleset. Asking for something smart is asking for having fun.

Did I say anyone said it was a 'rigged corporate charade'? I wasn't quoting anyone. People said that GW is using it to push models. I don't think a 650 point magnus worth 130 dollars dying instantly does that. What did I not get exactly?

"we are well aware of....." Are you speaking for everyone? I was unaware of these forums being a hivemind.

As for the design team, they weren't playing the game. This wasn't a game to test rules or make rules. They didn't forget rules actually, the rhino died in the enemy turn so the charge was legal. And if they did make any mistakes, so what? I don't think I've played a single game of 40k were someone doesn't forget some obscure rule because the bloated, unorganized ruleset is confusing. And yes, the design team is responsible for that, but that wasn't a factor in the twitch stream. Did you even watch the stream or are you making accusations based on what your hivemind thinks?

Frost weapons came out almost 3 years ago. The most you'll see in a tournament list is 2 stormwolves worth. What's actually wrong with 40k these days is scatbikes, wraiths, and grav, not obscure silly rules that might as well not exist like hellfrost. I get it, you don't like space wolves, and that's fine, but special snowflake rules? Oh you mean like thousand sons getting to fly around on discs and having special demons, special terminators, and a primarch that other legions can't have! Or do you hate Thousands Sons too? I'm curious as to what specific armies fit your narrow minded criteria. Games Workshop has been expanding lore and factions for a long time now, and you can either continue to complain about it, or just....you know.....suck it up or stop playing. Me personally, if I don't like playing a game, I don't play it. Decent rulesets make it easier to play games well, you are correct, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from having fun with the current rules. As long as you stay away from cheese (which is really easy to do) then you can have a great time with 40k. Smart =/= fun for everyone.

 Don Savik wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

Here there is none accusing GW (at least, in this instance) of a "rigged corporate charade". You failed spectacularly to understand what people complained about.
We are well aware of the design issue of GW rules. those are not trivial, because they had an impact on the demise of one of their main line (WHFB).

People are not criticising what happened per se, but the fact that GW seems to ignore their own rules. This suggest to most of us that they have not faith in their system, and for a reason, because is an unbalanced, convoluted mess that casts a shadow on a system we all love, or at least want to love. The design team shows more often than not to be clueless and amateurish, and this is just another example. For further evidence of how sloppy they are, check the Codex: Imperial Agents thread.

The frost weapon is just an example of what's wrong with 40k nowadays: useless, unclear, redundant rules that stack on each other, and incoherent fluff added to special snowflakes loved by a designer (this specific designer is infamous for that) that just does not fit with the universe, while other factions are left in the dust. What happens in the report just triggered comments on the weapon. Again, you failed spectacularly to understand that, too.

What does fun means? For me, is to play with my friends a well designed game. None of us is a competitive cheesemonger, but we want to be challenged by the game and by each other, and this can be possible only with a decent ruleset. Asking for something smart is asking for having fun.

Did I say anyone said it was a 'rigged corporate charade'? I wasn't quoting anyone. People said that GW is using it to push models. I don't think a 650 point magnus worth 130 dollars dying instantly does that. What did I not get exactly?

"we are well aware of....." Are you speaking for everyone? I was unaware of these forums being a hivemind.

As for the design team, they weren't playing the game. This wasn't a game to test rules or make rules. They didn't forget rules actually, the rhino died in the enemy turn so the charge was legal. And if they did make any mistakes, so what? I don't think I've played a single game of 40k were someone doesn't forget some obscure rule because the bloated, unorganized ruleset is confusing. And yes, the design team is responsible for that, but that wasn't a factor in the twitch stream. Did you even watch the stream or are you making accusations based on what your hivemind thinks?

Frost weapons came out almost 3 years ago. The most you'll see in a tournament list is 2 stormwolves worth. What's actually wrong with 40k these days is scatbikes, wraiths, and grav, not obscure silly rules that might as well not exist like hellfrost. I get it, you don't like space wolves, and that's fine, but special snowflake rules? Oh you mean like thousand sons getting to fly around on discs and having special demons, special terminators, and a primarch that other legions can't have! Or do you hate Thousands Sons too? I'm curious as to what specific armies fit your narrow minded criteria. Games Workshop has been expanding lore and factions for a long time now, and you can either continue to complain about it, or just....you know.....suck it up or stop playing. Me personally, if I don't like playing a game, I don't play it. Decent rulesets make it easier to play games well, you are correct, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from having fun with the current rules. As long as you stay away from cheese (which is really easy to do) then you can have a great time with 40k. Smart =/= fun for everyone.

You know the points cost of those sorcerers on discs? How about 190 base with no other upgrades? For a toughness 5 3+/4++ with only 2 master levels. My 1850 army with Magnus had a whopping 19 models in it, and 10 of those were rubrics. Care to guess how hard that is to take objectives when you have 2 squads? Those terminators? 250 points for 5 while you get what? 5 for 170? Yeah, they get +1 invuln save, but no ap 2 weapons and their heavy weapons are a joke. 30 points for a half assault cannon? 20 points for a half typhoon missile launcher that has half the range, half the uses? Yes the army is tough sure. But it's tiny. Everything is overpriced.

Is there really a market for unedited, livestreamed WH40k tabletop gameplay?