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Hello all,

I've always been a fan of the Imperial Guard; specifically the Tallarn, Steel Legion, and Cadians. Recently I've acquired a decently sized force (I'd say around 1750) for cheap. It's mostly troops with some tanks (3 leman russ' (one with Pask) and 1 hellhound). I've been watching battle reports with IG and they seem to do fairly poorly. However, lots of the comments on said battle reports typically talk about how the list was poor and doomed to fail. Now, I'm on a HUGE losing streak. Dark Angels and Chaos are my two big armies and they haven't one me any games since January. That's right, I haven't won a single game since January.

The point is, I'm looking to build a strong guard list and researching and watching battle reports have not helped all too much. I'm reading through 1d4chan for tips but who knows who accurate it actually is. I'm leaning towards Blob Guard due to the amount I already have but Apocalypse is very popular in my area. We typically have an Apocalypse game every 2 months or so and I imagine Tank Guard would perform better. I am open to both options.

I'm starting to ramble at this point so I'll sum up what I'm hoping to achieve: A strong 1500 point list (tends to be our meta for casual games) that performs well and a decent 2500 list for Apocalypse that also performs well. If there's any questions about the force I already have feel free to ask.

Go all in with either tanks or infantry, don't do combined arms. Then hope your rock army meets a scissors army, someone who either can't deal with 6+ AV14 hulls, or 150+ infantry. Guard are in the same spot your other two armies were in a year ago. The biggest piece of advice you're probably going to hear is the always inane "get some allies".

Dont. Wait until 8th and (hopefully) a new codex is released. Although realistically this will mean waiting until Codex Space Marines 8th ed, Codex Eldar 8th ed and possibly Codex [other flavour of Mary Sue here]. Then, assuming that the next IG codex is not just another steaming pile of crap, come back and ask again.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Hello all,

I've always been a fan of the Imperial Guard; specifically the Tallarn, Steel Legion, and Cadians. Recently I've acquired a decently sized force (I'd say around 1750) for cheap. It's mostly troops with some tanks (3 leman russ' (one with Pask) and 1 hellhound). I've been watching battle reports with IG and they seem to do fairly poorly. However, lots of the comments on said battle reports typically talk about how the list was poor and doomed to fail. Now, I'm on a HUGE losing streak. Dark Angels and Chaos are my two big armies and they haven't one me any games since January. That's right, I haven't won a single game since January.

The point is, I'm looking to build a strong guard list and researching and watching battle reports have not helped all too much. I'm reading through 1d4chan for tips but who knows who accurate it actually is. I'm leaning towards Blob Guard due to the amount I already have but Apocalypse is very popular in my area. We typically have an Apocalypse game every 2 months or so and I imagine Tank Guard would perform better. I am open to both options.

I'm starting to ramble at this point so I'll sum up what I'm hoping to achieve: A strong 1500 point list (tends to be our meta for casual games) that performs well and a decent 2500 list for Apocalypse that also performs well. If there's any questions about the force I already have feel free to ask.

I personally STRONGLY prefer the infantry route, with Artillery back up. Im writing an article about it right now because its come up so frequently, recently.

I should note that this is "All you need is a 50 man blob with five power axes, two Primaris Psykers at ML2 who know Invisibility and three priests and some allies" Jancoran.

But in a way he is right, FW Artillery platforms are utterly amazing.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
I've been watching battle reports with IG and they seem to do fairly poorly. However, lots of the comments on said battle reports typically talk about how the list was poor and doomed to fail.

The thing is, just about all IG lists are poor by virtue of the options available in the codex. If you are looking to get out of a losing streak Guard is not the army for you I'm afraid to say. I got out of my losing streak by transitioning away from Guard, with allies slowly taking up more and more points in my list. There are many problems with guard but I think the following is the main issue.

The worst problem is that none of your units can function on their own, they all need to be supported by another unit to be even decently effective at their intended role which means the true, practical cost of your units is much higher than is listed in the codex. For example you want to field a Leman Russ. Great, but your expensive heavy tank will be destroyed instantly by even the weakest units in assault so you need a unit to screen it. You can either pay 60 more points for a veteran squad, or 130 points for a minimum platoon. Now your tank can last 1 more turn before the assault wave hits but its true cost is that much higher. The infantry you purchased are also totally useless without support (and weapon upgrades) of their own; they will run away after a couple casualties from small arms fire and thus are incapable of screening your tank unless you take something to support them by buffing morale. So now they cost more, which means your tank cost more. But your tank is extremely vulnerable without them, so what choice do you have? This process repeats for every single unit in the codex and also means that when the game is underway if a piece is taken out of that complex structure of interdependent units your whole army crumples very quickly. To continue our example: the priest you took to make your tank screening infantry immune to morale dies to barrage, or a challenge, or bad placement, or a precision shot etc. Now your infantry run. Now your tank dies. One unit dying causes a horrible cascading reaction that ends up affecting all the units that depended upon that now dead unit to function.

Now, with the above in mind, consider that all your units are T3, 5+ or vehicles with 3HP and have no mobility to get out of harms way. You can see why this army just doesn't work in 7th.

Guard can work but it depends on what you want to do with them
For example I could see a double cad guard army based around infantry platoons + artillery behind 2 aegis defense lines working. Back this up with mech vets vendettas and hell hounds and you will probably have a decent army but hope you don't go against ignores cover heavy armies like Tau or Noise marines.
The alternative is mech vet span

 master of ordinance wrote:
I should note that this is "All you need is a 50 man blob with five power axes, two Primaris Psykers at ML2 who know Invisibility and three priests and some allies" Jancoran.

But in a way he is right, FW Artillery platforms are utterly amazing.

I never suggested invisibility. Also: I am right. No I said 40. Misquoting me does nothing for your case. The unit is excellent.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Hello all,

I've always been a fan of the Imperial Guard; specifically the Tallarn, Steel Legion, and Cadians. Recently I've acquired a decently sized force (I'd say around 1750) for cheap. It's mostly troops with some tanks (3 leman russ' (one with Pask) and 1 hellhound). I've been watching battle reports with IG and they seem to do fairly poorly. However, lots of the comments on said battle reports typically talk about how the list was poor and doomed to fail. Now, I'm on a HUGE losing streak. Dark Angels and Chaos are my two big armies and they haven't one me any games since January. That's right, I haven't won a single game since January.

The point is, I'm looking to build a strong guard list and researching and watching battle reports have not helped all too much. I'm reading through 1d4chan for tips but who knows who accurate it actually is. I'm leaning towards Blob Guard due to the amount I already have but Apocalypse is very popular in my area. We typically have an Apocalypse game every 2 months or so and I imagine Tank Guard would perform better. I am open to both options.

I'm starting to ramble at this point so I'll sum up what I'm hoping to achieve: A strong 1500 point list (tends to be our meta for casual games) that performs well and a decent 2500 list for Apocalypse that also performs well. If there's any questions about the force I already have feel free to ask.

Hey Paul, I can't say I've played much in the past year, but I'd like to offer my help since I know how annoying it is when people just talk about how "there's no hope", etc. I've got an infantry list that ran 5-0, before I couldn't make the 2-hour drives to meet up with my group. We were pretty casual and I was limited by my desire to run models that I actually own. The easiest room for improvement is to dump the the assassin from this list, replace him with more infantry and a regimental standard. I like to use Primaris Psykers as my warlord since they are ICs, and very hard to kill if you put them in a large blob of guardsmen or in a transport with a squad, just don't put him in the same squad as a commissar. I make liberal use of heavy flamers since they will melt most assault units, the eradicator is also a super cheap tank that will dominate anything that isn't marines or Necrons, and it ain't terrible there either just through sheer volume of fire.

I like to flank with vets in taurox and scions. Taurox have rough terrain mods and scions have move through cover, which means you can basically barrel those taurox through terrain and get those cover saves, while scions can deep strike directly into terrain without any risk. These units will probably die horribly, but they're too much of a threat to ignore with BS4 and other armies will often send expensive elite units to chase down your puny 100 point squads. Camo cloaks and trip mines on veterans make them annoyingly hard to kill in cover or in assault.

HQ

Command Squad
- melta bombs
- carapace armor
- 2 plasma, 1 heavy flamer
- Chimera (BS4 plasma gunboat in a chimera, with a heavy flamer for torching assault units)

Primaris Psyker (this is more for fun, used him as my warlord)
- Biomancy or Divination

Eversor Assassin (again for fun, probably best to dump him)

Troops

2x Vet Squads (for targeting high value targets or holding objectives, I swear heavy flamers are amazing)
- Taurox
- Camo
- 2x melta guns
- heavy flamers

Platoon Squad (eh, give them an autocannon or something and sit them on an objective)

30 man blob with a commissar, melta bombs, and flamers (tank support and objective contesting, they can tie up much pricier units for a long, long time)

Elites

2x scions (5-man, deep-strike onto objectives or high-value targets, remember that since they have move through cover they do not take dangeorus terrain tests when deep striking into terrain!)
- 2x plasma

Heavy Support

Demolisher w/ lascannon (my model is that way from forever ago, demolisher is a good anti-anything unit, but an executioner is probably better)

Eradicator w/ heavy bolters (anti-infantry, great against anything except MEQ)

Wyvern (unless they've changed things, this unit is still broken as hell)

I was spitballing ideas with someone a while ago about using superheavies in the guard. The idea was essentially to camp your entire CAD within its armoured bulk. Think 2 CCS & 2 Veteran Squads in a Stormlord, multiplied until you max out your points. . .

**edit** found it: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709056.page

The Forge World Imperial Armour book for Guard has a few fancy things that can help you out. Notably Beast Hunter shells for the Russ Vanquisher, instant death is quite scary to the bigger creatures around.

In terms of tactics, I personally run my infantry as cheap as possible, and in very large numbers, to serve as a shield for my armored units. Conscripts are so useful.

Also, I've found that anything that can outflank is extremely helpful for guard, as the Imperial Guard as a whole lacks mobility.

Dont. Wait until 8th and (hopefully) a new codex is released.

Especially, since Inquisition got nerfed.

8th isnt coming until 2018 is nigh. No sense waiting that long.

If you can. Grab Imperial Armor: Volume One, Second Edition.

SOme of the points costs are still wonky, but the crazy tanks, weapons and more inside can REALLY throw opponents for a loop.

A Vanquisher armed with Beast Hunter shells (small blast instant death goodness) 1 shotted Kharne the Betrayer in a recent match, then did the same to an upgraded WarBoss later on.

Manticores get more missiles types and all sort sof craziness. Not to mention the Artillery that dropped out of the IG codex such as the Colossus and Gryphon is all set to go

 TheSilo wrote:

Troops

2x Vet Squads (for targeting high value targets or holding objectives, I swear heavy flamers are amazing)
- Taurox
- Camo
- 2x melta guns
- heavy flamers

Elites

2x scions (5-man, deep-strike onto objectives or high-value targets, remember that since they have move through cover they do not take dangeorus terrain tests when deep striking into terrain!)
- 2x plasma

Question - wouldn't be more efficient give melta to scions and plasma to vets? You can deepstrike scions and approach a sensible target close, vets will have to move on the field and shoot from the hatch, a 24" will come in use earlier...

I agree on HF! Underrated! And now that one unit can fire just 2 weapons, no need for 3 melta or 3 plasma!

 Jancoran wrote:
8th isnt coming until 2018 is nigh. No sense waiting that long.

Rumors point to summer 2017

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
8th isnt coming until 2018 is nigh. No sense waiting that long.

Rumors point to summer 2017

Rumors are just that. But even if it comes to fruition, thats a long time to get some painting and basing done and get the hang of things.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Go all in with either tanks or infantry, don't do combined arms. Then hope your rock army meets a scissors army, someone who either can't deal with 6+ AV14 hulls, or 150+ infantry. Guard are in the same spot your other two armies were in a year ago. The biggest piece of advice you're probably going to hear is the always inane "get some allies".

I agree wholeheartedly. either choose that you want to have a metric butt-tonnne of footsloggin' guardsmen, or loads and loads of tanks, dont go down the middle route, an eggs in one basket approach seems to work best

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Troops

2x Vet Squads (for targeting high value targets or holding objectives, I swear heavy flamers are amazing)
- Taurox
- Camo
- 2x melta guns
- heavy flamers

Elites

2x scions (5-man, deep-strike onto objectives or high-value targets, remember that since they have move through cover they do not take dangeorus terrain tests when deep striking into terrain!)
- 2x plasma

Question - wouldn't be more efficient give melta to scions and plasma to vets? You can deepstrike scions and approach a sensible target close, vets will have to move on the field and shoot from the hatch, a 24" will come in use earlier...

I agree on HF! Underrated! And now that one unit can fire just 2 weapons, no need for 3 melta or 3 plasma!

I like to have longer range on the scions, since otherwise a bad deep strike scatter can make them mostly irrelevant, and since they have the 4+ save they're a little more resilient with plasma.

The snare mines and cloaks on the veterans make them very stubborn in cover, which is why I prefer that kit instead of carapace armor (also it's cheapter). But you could go with plasma instead of melta. I just like to move the transports 12" on turn one and then close with a tough target on turn 2, where the meltas can shine.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't a little disheartening. 'Don't Play Guard' seems to be a common suggestion where ever I ask and it definitely has me worried about sinking more money into them. Nevertheless, looks like I'll have to choose between bodies and tanks. I'll just have to decide that on my own and figure out what better fits my play style.

Question - wouldn't be more efficient give melta to scions and plasma to vets? You can deepstrike scions and approach a sensible target close, vets will have to move on the field and shoot from the hatch, a 24" will come in use earlier...

I think Melta Guns would be better on the Scions as well for Deep Strike hunting, even with the potential to scatter. You're already relying on a good amount of luck to roll for reserves and not mishap, may as well go for the closer landing zone. Plus it's the better anti armor weapon, which is probably what you will need to attack in the back line. But for general use with your anti tank already covered by other units, Plasma. If there are no high AV enemies, Plasma.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't a little disheartening. 'Don't Play Guard' seems to be a common suggestion where ever I ask and it definitely has me worried about sinking more money into them. Nevertheless, looks like I'll have to choose between bodies and tanks. I'll just have to decide that on my own and figure out what better fits my play style.

Part of the problem is that tanks are god-awful in 7th ed.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't a little disheartening. 'Don't Play Guard' seems to be a common suggestion where ever I ask and it definitely has me worried about sinking more money into them. Nevertheless, looks like I'll have to choose between bodies and tanks. I'll just have to decide that on my own and figure out what better fits my play style.

If I'm going to be brutally honest...

Guard are an army that are hard up right now because they have never been given any kind of restructuring or deep lines of thought into their design since their initial inception. Martel made a mention about tanks not being great, which is a huge issue for the Guard(a part of their schtick is supposed to be the amount of armour they can field, which back in the day was reasonably priced) because they pay a premium for weapons and equipment on vehicles which are just a resounding "Meh" right now(aside from the Wyvern).

I realize that this is very disheartening, but hark! There is hope!

That hope though? It relies upon playing with individuals who prefer to have fun and make lists with variety rather than just "power units".

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't a little disheartening. 'Don't Play Guard' seems to be a common suggestion

Quitters gotta' quit.

But you dont have to be one. =)

As a sidenote, Stormswords really make marine players cry.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't a little disheartening. 'Don't Play Guard' seems to be a common suggestion where ever I ask and it definitely has me worried about sinking more money into them. Nevertheless, looks like I'll have to choose between bodies and tanks. I'll just have to decide that on my own and figure out what better fits my play style.

If I'm going to be brutally honest...

Guard are an army that are hard up right now because they have never been given any kind of restructuring or deep lines of thought into their design since their initial inception. Martel made a mention about tanks not being great, which is a huge issue for the Guard(a part of their schtick is supposed to be the amount of armour they can field, which back in the day was reasonably priced) because they pay a premium for weapons and equipment on vehicles which are just a resounding "Meh" right now(aside from the Wyvern).

I realize that this is very disheartening, but hark! There is hope!

That hope though? It relies upon playing with individuals who prefer to have fun and make lists with variety rather than just "power units".

On the flipside, Guard can field more special weapons and infantry than pretty much anyone else. There aren't a lot of units that are well equipped to handle a 50-man conscript tarpit unit with a commissar, good luck trying to secure an objective over that unit!

I think a key to IG is playing the mission. I played against a lot of people that brought shiny Lords of War or named characters or high-priced elite units, I often beat those people easily. Our fast attack and elites slots are mostly just 'bring-for-fun' units, and heavy support is much less reliable than it should be, but our troops and transports are some of the best in the game for the price. And the objectives are all about getting those objective-secured troops units onto them. Draigo and all the Grey Knight Paladins in the galaxy aren't enough to stop 50 conscripts and their hearty commissar!

 TheSilo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd be lying if I said this thread wasn't a little disheartening. 'Don't Play Guard' seems to be a common suggestion where ever I ask and it definitely has me worried about sinking more money into them. Nevertheless, looks like I'll have to choose between bodies and tanks. I'll just have to decide that on my own and figure out what better fits my play style.

If I'm going to be brutally honest...

Guard are an army that are hard up right now because they have never been given any kind of restructuring or deep lines of thought into their design since their initial inception. Martel made a mention about tanks not being great, which is a huge issue for the Guard(a part of their schtick is supposed to be the amount of armour they can field, which back in the day was reasonably priced) because they pay a premium for weapons and equipment on vehicles which are just a resounding "Meh" right now(aside from the Wyvern).

I realize that this is very disheartening, but hark! There is hope!

That hope though? It relies upon playing with individuals who prefer to have fun and make lists with variety rather than just "power units".

On the flipside, Guard can field more special weapons and infantry than pretty much anyone else. There aren't a lot of units that are well equipped to handle a 50-man conscript tarpit unit with a commissar, good luck trying to secure an objective over that unit!

I think a key to IG is playing the mission. I played against a lot of people that brought shiny Lords of War or named characters or high-priced elite units, I often beat those people easily. Our fast attack and elites slots are mostly just 'bring-for-fun' units, and heavy support is much less reliable than it should be, but our troops and transports are some of the best in the game for the price. And the objectives are all about getting those objective-secured troops units onto them. Draigo and all the Grey Knight Paladins in the galaxy aren't enough to stop 50 conscripts and their hearty commissar!

Even better, bring multiple commisars so they can't get challenged out

Ah, but see, you don't need to accept anyone's challenge, that just prevents them from using the commissar's LD. Commissar can decline the challenge, the unit still counts as stubborn, and worst case scenario you just execute a 4 point conscript (oh noes!).