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I want you guys to think about that for a second before you wish to insult Fantasy players.

I find this quote amusing considering it was Fantasy players who loved to harp on and hate anyone who said anything positive about AoS in any sense of the word.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

Now this is really amusin! Comprehend why it's great while at the same time not knowing a thing about the Stormcast at all, namely the fact that they aren't any of those things really. They are human, they feel fear, they even interact with their descendants and need to eat sleep and all those sorts of things as they continue to fight against such odds while even fearing their own death. They do become emotionless but thats because as they die they lose everything that makes them human, they become emotionless focused purely on the goal without caring who they were or once were.

Heck they lose and fight, the thing of the matter is that it's gone from low fantasy to high fantasy where good actually has a chance of doing something meaningful and carving out their own hope in this universe out to shat on them. The tone has drastically shifted as a result of course but I have no clue why you at all think that they are somehow better then Chaos + 1 or otherwise!

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

And the End Times are considered by most to be part of AoS, because most tend to hate it as a result of what it led to.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I want you guys to think about that for a second before you wish to insult Fantasy players.

I find this quote amusing considering it was Fantasy players who loved to harp on and hate anyone who said anything positive about AoS in any sense of the word.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

Now this is really amusin! Comprehend why it's great while at the same time not knowing a thing about the Stormcast at all, namely the fact that they aren't any of those things really. They are human, they feel fear, they even interact with their descendants and need to eat sleep and all those sorts of things as they continue to fight against such odds while even fearing their own death. They do become emotionless but thats because as they die they lose everything that makes them human, they become emotionless focused purely on the goal without caring who they were or once were.

Heck they lose and fight, the thing of the matter is that it's gone from low fantasy to high fantasy where good actually has a chance of doing something meaningful and carving out their own hope in this universe out to shat on them. The tone has drastically shifted as a result of course.

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

And the End Times are considered by most to be part of AoS, because most tend to hate it as a result of what it led to.

We hated on AoS because GW killed our game, made us into bad guys, prevented us playing our game at their stores, took our money and bait and switched us making us think AoS was 9th edition Fantasy. All this considering Total War: Warhammer was on the horizon and everything was looking up for Fantasy including End Times increasing interest exponentially because the setting was moving forward. I mean both 40k and Fantasy stagnated and the idea that characters were dying left and right made things hurtful but awesome. Saying this as somebody that liked Queek and the Skaven in his Clan get totally destroyed we still got to see Skaven and many Bad Guy races kick some much deserved ***. It was a long time coming and it felt great. They went way too far though.

------

Amusing because you don't understand the power level between crappy *** empire soldier and the other enemies that exist. The Empire was more like the Imperial Guard. Sigmarines fill the role of space marines because space marines are genetically engineered BA's that spit acid. You can't relate to that and 40k even makes points that you can't. If you can't relate to their struggle why should you care about them? What makes the Empire great is you can relate to farmer turned soldier looking out for his family or even a guardsman of the imperial guard. Space marines and sigmarines aren't like that. They aren't frail, fragile or weak. You don't understand. Also emotionless equals boring. I can't relate or care about an emotionless husk.

Yes and that's why it sucks. Good needs to be an underdog. The point is success against the odds. If the bad guy is weaker than the good guys where's the struggle? Why should i care? This is what AoS fails at and what LotR succeeded at. Big Bad that almost surely will win and good guys that almost surely will lose. People care because there's a chance the good guys will lose and in Fantasy they did. I just wish it wasn't so horrible what they did and what they did to the fans.

Oh yeah the Empire was never going to fall until End Times when the world was destroyed. As i said 40k and Fantasy needed new events and changing of hands which GW doesn't have enough balls to do until they murder a setting or faction apparently due to sales (or supposedly). Besides what makes you think AoS will be any different if it lasts for 5 more years or longer?

End Times aren't part of AoS. If GW considers it it's only because they killed Fantasy. AoS players didn't play during End Times but Fantasy players did. It is no more a part of AoS than 30k players playing out the horus heresy is exactly 40k. In fact it's less due to all the drastic changes, no sigmarines, the Old World and just about everything. There's far too much difference.

We hated on AoS because GW killed our game, made us into bad guys, prevented us playing our game at their stores, took our money and bait and switched us making us think AoS was 9th edition Fantasy. All this considering Total War: Warhammer was on the horizon and everything was looking up for Fantasy including End Times increasing interest exponentially because the setting was moving forward.

Should note I played WHFB (Orcs!) , so it's not as if I joined for AoS alone, and according to GW the End Times didn't really do much to increased sales exponentially at all. (Given Kirby's word anyways)

Amusing because you don't understand the power level between crappy *** empire soldier and the other enemies that exist. The Empire was more like the Imperial Guard. Sigmarines fill the role of space marines because space marines are genetically engineered BA's that spit acid. You can't relate to that and 40k even makes points that you can't. If you can't relate to their struggle why should you care about them? What makes the Empire great is you can relate to farmer turned soldier looking out for his family or even a guardsman of the imperial guard. Space marines and sigmarines aren't like that. They aren't frail, fragile or weak. You don't understand. Also emotionless equals boring. I can't relate or care about an emotionless husk.

You do know those people are still around and fighting right...? They are called the Free People who certainly are trying to forge themselves a new place in this world despite the fact that Chaos controls nearly most of the realms barely safe within Sigmar's walls, and you took my emotionless quote out of context so very hard didn't you? I said they only became such after being killed and reforged, which even they feared because they wanted to keep their humanity, they don't want to die off to become as horrific as the ones who have been reforged constantly.

Yes and that's why it sucks. Good needs to be an underdog. The point is success against the odds. If the bad guy is weaker than the good guys where's the struggle? Why should i care? This is what AoS fails at and what LotR succeeded at. Big Bad that almost surely will win and good guys that almost surely will lose. People care because there's a chance the good guys will lose and in Fantasy they did. I just wish it wasn't so horrible what they did and what they did to the fans.

In Fantasy there was literally no chance of good winning, it was a decrept husk that was always on the edge of constant disaster while various elector counts bicker and fight, the dwarfs were killing themselves off and the Elf's problems are halfway their own due to Malekith's issues.

And you are acting as if they are going around, mace in hand and swinging apart constant hordes of chaos singing merrily about the bloody paste that's adorning their boots. Chaos nearly WON their victory at hand and now good is fighting back, but its still very much a struggle and it certainly isn't SIGMARINES ARE THE BEST AND WINNING EVERYTHING as you like to say now.

Oh yeah the Empire was never going to fall until End Times when the world was destroyed

So then there's no underdog then, no chance for good or any sort of tale there. It's a dog with a guillotine over its head then?

End Times aren't part of AoS. If GW considers it it's only because they killed Fantasy. AoS players didn't play during End Times but Fantasy players did. It is no more a part of AoS than 30k players playing out the horus heresy is exactly 40k. In fact it's less due to all the drastic changes, no sigmarines, the Old World and just about everything. There's far too much difference.

You are one of the few I've seen that don't consider the End Times tied to AoS, most consider it an abomination alongside it from what I can tell due to it's death of the old world.

Oh yeah the Empire was never going to fall until End Times when the world was destroyed. As i said 40k and Fantasy needed new events and changing of hands which GW doesn't have enough balls to do until they murder a setting or faction apparently due to sales (or supposedly). Besides what makes you think AoS will be any different if it lasts for 5 more years or longer? 

Well I imagine that the first year saw AoS get a background effecting Summer campaign and the lore saw lots of places get conquered and reconquered by other races would say it'll be different.

End Times aren't part of AoS. If GW considers it it's only because they killed Fantasy.

Indeed they are, Sigmar and his pantheon vividly remember them and rarely recall the horrors of it and End Times even served to foreshadow AoS as it set the explanation of heroes from one world becoming gods for the next and what people thought was that famous Grey Knight(Khal Draigo? My 40k knowledge is poor I'm afraid) in the realm of chaos was actually a Hallowed knights Stormcast commander who even got shown being thrown into Nurgle's realm in the AoS books.

AoS players didn't play during End Times

Very much not true, alot of fantasy veterans like myself played through it and some good lads on the tga forum even made the End Times compatible with AoS gameplay so they could enjoy it further.

Despite all that, I understand where you're coming from though.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

Replace 9th age (ehhhhhhhh) with 6th Ed. and I'd be on board in a heartbeat, as well as several people in my area.

6th Edition is still a step backward. It was a good system because Tuomas Pirinen made holistic changes. However there are improvement in 8th, supporting attacks is one such improvement, it makes rank and file units more valuable. Steadfast needs to go though.

9th edition needs to take the best of 6th, enough from 9th age and whatever was left of 7th and 8th. Repackage the army lists to include everything from 5th edition onwards points balance them once for all time based on all the army lists together and produce a static 9th edition that can stand on its own two feet as a standalone game.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

Any and all arguments about the WHFB background being boring, stale or static is just a non-argument to me. I'm not after a TV show, I'm after a wargame. Sure, the warhammer universe as you describe with nothing much really changing would make a crappy TV show, whereas the world as we know it ending sounds like a cracking season finale. But I'm not after a story, I'm after a setting. At the risk of sounding too "forge the narrativey", the static nature of the WHFB world allowed you to make your own stories and fight any battle you choose. It was open. Want to see what "happens" if the Empire gets invaded by Chaos "for real", then gather a couple of friends together and play a campaign around that scenario. If the Chaos player(s) win(s), then you can consider the storyline advanced; the next thing that happens in the WHFB world is that the Empire falls to this Chaos invasion. But guess what, the Empire haven't actually all died because the storyline is static, so when you play a pick-up game with your Empire the week after the campaign, it still makes sense in relation to the background of the warhammer world. Unlike, say, Tomb Kings, who have, to my knowledge (admittedly it's not great on AoS fluff but the models aren't around so I think I'm right) simply died or disappeared. Now if I play an AoS game with Tomb Kings, it doesn't make sense in relation to the AoS world. What a great storyline advancement, it's provided such a great setting for our games /sarcasm.

Short version is that the background of a wargaming universe should provide a setting on which you build, the storyline doesn't need to be advanced and shouldn't need to be. It's not a TV show. Have some imagination and don't just assume that because GW didn't (until end times/AoS) advance the storyline, nothing is happening or could happen.

I also echo those talking about Total War. It is a shame that GW decided to make the move to AoS just as Total War: Warhammer came out. It would've been nice if they'd given it a year or two to see if it helped, maybe link the game to the hobby more, and maybe release some better battalions. Whilst I don't personally know anyone who's gotten into the game through Total War: Warhammer, it would be nice if GW brought back a mass-battle version for these players and for the wider community.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
my dwarf army cost about $400, with army book, for warhammer. my grudgebound throng, yeah it cost $400 with grand order alliance,. it was not cheaper either way.

Just saying though that prices like that prevent people from entering the game. Look at how popular Total War: Warhammer is. Sure people complain but it's infinitely cheaper than Fantasy or Age of Sigmar is and **** it is it ever popular even with the negative reviews based around DLC prices. I doubt strategy or some complication takes away much from the game so much as sheer price and absolute **** treatment of the player base. I mean they even listen to their fans. They extend chaos warriors DLC to up to the first week, they have FreeLC and they allow much more than GW ever has. Keep in mind AoS as it is now with the more intelligent new head of the GW company vs when the previous company head that was the village idiot killed Fantasy off is much different. A better comparison would be how Kirby handled Fantasy and AoS and the answer to both is poorly just as he poorly handled the company. If the new head of GW management handled Fantasy there's a good chance he would've made a smart decision that wouldn't screw over the fans which is why Sisters are getting released to a degree and more factions are getting love in 40k.

pretty much my point, the argument that AoS is cheaper just has not proven true to me. just to build my one battallion costs the same as my 2,000 point army was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

Replace 9th age (ehhhhhhhh) with 6th Ed. and I'd be on board in a heartbeat, as well as several people in my area.

which one was 6th? that the empire vs orcs box?

Absolutely, that's the one. If you play it with Ravening Hordes army lists, it is the most fair version of WFB you will ever play. The army books are where it went off the rails, and rather than replace the bad books, they changed the core rules. Baffling...

Ravening Hordes was great. It saved me from canning WHFB altogether after I spent a couple years in 5th edition and wanted something more than D&D with models.

Indeed the army book power creep went to insane levels and by two years into 7th I put it all away for a few years because it had gotten stupid, stale, scriptable, and super easy to abuse again.

 Orlanth wrote:
6th Edition is still a step backward. It was a good system because Tuomas Pirinen made holistic changes. However there are improvement in 8th, supporting attacks is one such improvement, it makes rank and file units more valuable. Steadfast needs to go though.

9th edition needs to take the best of 6th, enough from 9th age and whatever was left of 7th and 8th. Repackage the army lists to include everything from 5th edition onwards points balance them once for all time based on all the army lists together and produce a static 9th edition that can stand on its own two feet as a standalone game.

Sometimes you need to take a step backwards. If your current system doesn't work, and a previous system works albeit slightly off, then it's more of a prerogative to make the small fixes to the older system than to try to completely overhaul the newer system. You see, to me I don't think 8th added anything that really needs brought along except the new units, IF you can stat and point them in a way that they'd fit in 6th.

8th's magic system was totally stupid and imbalanced, and adding the PD rules from 7th to 6th fixes the only bad thing about magic in that edition.

Random charge is one of my biggest complaints. Even if it's an outlier, there is a chance that a Dwarf unit can charge farther than a cav unit in 8th. The fact that it is even POSSIBLE for that to happen should be enough to raise an eyebrow or two.

Having a multitude of attacks means that the points values of each unit is completely off, which also means that certain units become no brainer choices, whereas in every other edition you had real hard choices to make with armament. 7th killed that with so many army books giving models every damn option possible. Black Orcs? Slayers? Yeah, it's every bit as bad as CSMs having shooting AND CC layout at the same time. Where is the negative to that?

Also 6th meant Swarms were actually useful, whereas from 7th on they were worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Ravening Hordes was great. It saved me from canning WHFB altogether after I spent a couple years in 5th edition and wanted something more than D&D with models.

Indeed the army book power creep went to insane levels and by two years into 7th I put it all away for a few years because it had gotten stupid, stale, scriptable, and super easy to abuse again.

We don't often agree, but you nailed it this time. And to be frank, I think there was only three or four books that needed rewritten in 6th. That isn't a bad record. Though the one they DID rewrite as a precursor to 7th was one that DIDN'T need rewritten.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

There's just sooo much wrong with those arguments:

First thing first: how does ANY of what you've said actually constitute a bad sign, aside from the panic buys of last chance? I bought IoB's reincarnation and it was to begin my other two armies of AoS, and so did a friend of mine who wanted the rules for those elves. So your point of IoB's re-release is a flawed argument,further reinforced by the fact that they did the same with AoBR turning into battle for Vedros, or the re-edition of DV for 6->7th. GW likes to re-has their starters from time to time. GHB's added new rules and ways of playing, it's an expansion in the same way Planetary assault was for 40k. Matched play was literally designed by fans (the basis and assitance at least).

I fail to see the fun on the big kits. In fact, it hurt my mawkrushas's feelings.

You haven't played a lot of AoS competitively, haven't you? Nagash's is garbage tier. And I seriously mean it. In so far in the two big tournaments there's only been ONE death player in any of the two top fives. And it was a FEC (ghouls) list, no sign of Nagash anywhere close. Hell, even Tomb Kings whom the net will flaunt as extremely powerful didn't get beyond seventh place at warlords. But yeah, death placed second in a tournament and didn't figure at all in the following one's top 5. It's broken as feth. The fact that the top 5 armies were totally different despite there being no new army release shows us how unbalanced the game is.

That joe shmuck died and got a visit by sigmar and was offered the chance of getting a gakload of steroids and a shot at payback.Stormcasts are those that died at the hands of chaos right after losing EVERYTHING AGAIN and being on the verge of being wiped out. And he says yes, goes back and is angry. And even as his humanity is gnawed away bit by bit he'll remember that. And "stronger than that faceless horror"? What? Stormcasts are stronger than humans but nowhere the ridunkoloussness of space marines, they struggle to face the gak they are thrown away. For hell's sake, the guys from the starter set are slaughtered to a man by Archaon himself (and there was much joy). Stormcasts got crumpled during the tome pestilens, tome ironjawz and I think tome everchosen if not more. Basically these guys are smacked quite often and it's shown they are not the top dog. Like, at all.

And emotionless husk? Does this seem emotionless to you?

‘Lend me your might! If you can still
hear me, if you care still for the lives and
deeds of mortal men, then grant me as
much of your power as you might spare,
so that I may be avenged upon the slayers
of my folk, that I might kill them and kill
them and never rest, not until every last
drop of Chaos-ruined blood has been
spilt and washed away from the soil of
Amcarsh by clean rains. I do not ask to
be saved. I do not plead for my life. I ask
only for strength. I ask only to be
avenged!’

The audio-drama makes it more dramatic, guy's screaming from atop his lungs in rage and impotence. And this is a stormcast making the shouts.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

There's just sooo much wrong with those arguments:

First thing first: how does ANY of what you've said actually constitute a bad sign, aside from the panic buys of last chance? I bought IoB's reincarnation and it was to begin my other two armies of AoS, and so did a friend of mine who wanted the rules for those elves. So your point of IoB's re-release is a flawed argument,further reinforced by the fact that they did the same with AoBR turning into battle for Vedros, or the re-edition of DV for 6->7th. GW likes to re-has their starters from time to time. GHB's added new rules and ways of playing, it's an expansion in the same way Planetary assault was for 40k. Matched play was literally designed by fans (the basis and assitance at least).

I fail to see the fun on the big kits. In fact, it hurt my mawkrushas's feelings.

You haven't played a lot of AoS competitively, haven't you? Nagash's is garbage tier. And I seriously mean it. In so far in the two big tournaments there's only been ONE death player in any of the two top fives. And it was a FEC (ghouls) list, no sign of Nagash anywhere close. Hell, even Tomb Kings whom the net will flaunt as extremely powerful didn't get beyond seventh place at warlords. But yeah, death placed second in a tournament and didn't figure at all in the following one's top 5. It's broken as feth. The fact that the top 5 armies were totally different despite there being no new army release shows us how unbalanced the game is.

That joe shmuck died and got a visit by sigmar and was offered the chance of getting a gakload of steroids and a shot at payback.Stormcasts are those that died at the hands of chaos right after losing EVERYTHING AGAIN and being on the verge of being wiped out. And he says yes, goes back and is angry. And even as his humanity is gnawed away bit by bit he'll remember that. And "stronger than that faceless horror"? What? Stormcasts are stronger than humans but nowhere the ridunkoloussness of space marines, they struggle to face the gak they are thrown away. For hell's sake, the guys from the starter set are slaughtered to a man by Archaon himself (and there was much joy). Stormcasts got crumpled during the tome pestilens, tome ironjawz and I think tome everchosen if not more. Basically these guys are smacked quite often and it's shown they are not the top dog. Like, at all.

This is correct a stormcast strength fluff wise is about the level of a chaos warrior. A vampire strength wise is stronger than a stormcast according to mannfred

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
6th Edition is still a step backward. It was a good system because Tuomas Pirinen made holistic changes. However there are improvement in 8th, supporting attacks is one such improvement, it makes rank and file units more valuable. Steadfast needs to go though.

9th edition needs to take the best of 6th, enough from 9th age and whatever was left of 7th and 8th. Repackage the army lists to include everything from 5th edition onwards points balance them once for all time based on all the army lists together and produce a static 9th edition that can stand on its own two feet as a standalone game.

Sometimes you need to take a step backwards. If your current system doesn't work, and a previous system works albeit slightly off, then it's more of a prerogative to make the small fixes to the older system than to try to completely overhaul the newer system. You see, to me I don't think 8th added anything that really needs brought along except the new units, IF you can stat and point them in a way that they'd fit in 6th.

8th's magic system was totally stupid and imbalanced, and adding the PD rules from 7th to 6th fixes the only bad thing about magic in that edition.

Random charge is one of my biggest complaints. Even if it's an outlier, there is a chance that a Dwarf unit can charge farther than a cav unit in 8th. The fact that it is even POSSIBLE for that to happen should be enough to raise an eyebrow or two.

Having a multitude of attacks means that the points values of each unit is completely off, which also means that certain units become no brainer choices, whereas in every other edition you had real hard choices to make with armament. 7th killed that with so many army books giving models every damn option possible. Black Orcs? Slayers? Yeah, it's every bit as bad as CSMs having shooting AND CC layout at the same time. Where is the negative to that?

Also 6th meant Swarms were actually useful, whereas from 7th on they were worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Ravening Hordes was great. It saved me from canning WHFB altogether after I spent a couple years in 5th edition and wanted something more than D&D with models.

Indeed the army book power creep went to insane levels and by two years into 7th I put it all away for a few years because it had gotten stupid, stale, scriptable, and super easy to abuse again.

We don't often agree, but you nailed it this time. And to be frank, I think there was only three or four books that needed rewritten in 6th. That isn't a bad record. Though the one they DID rewrite as a precursor to 7th was one that DIDN'T need rewritten.

The problem is that army book creep was there to sell models. A legacy product can rid itself of this problem. Gw can if they get the right designer get the balance of Ravening hordes with the depth of the army books in a single volume for sale accompanying a fixed 9th edition ruleset.
What made 6th work was the holistic change under one design head. That success can be replicated.

 The Shadow wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

Any and all arguments about the WHFB background being boring, stale or static is just a non-argument to me. I'm not after a TV show, I'm after a wargame. Sure, the warhammer universe as you describe with nothing much really changing would make a crappy TV show, whereas the world as we know it ending sounds like a cracking season finale. But I'm not after a story, I'm after a setting. At the risk of sounding too "forge the narrativey", the static nature of the WHFB world allowed you to make your own stories and fight any battle you choose. It was open. Want to see what "happens" if the Empire gets invaded by Chaos "for real", then gather a couple of friends together and play a campaign around that scenario. If the Chaos player(s) win(s), then you can consider the storyline advanced; the next thing that happens in the WHFB world is that the Empire falls to this Chaos invasion. But guess what, the Empire haven't actually all died because the storyline is static, so when you play a pick-up game with your Empire the week after the campaign, it still makes sense in relation to the background of the warhammer world. Unlike, say, Tomb Kings, who have, to my knowledge (admittedly it's not great on AoS fluff but the models aren't around so I think I'm right) simply died or disappeared. Now if I play an AoS game with Tomb Kings, it doesn't make sense in relation to the AoS world. What a great storyline advancement, it's provided such a great setting for our games /sarcasm.

Short version is that the background of a wargaming universe should provide a setting on which you build, the storyline doesn't need to be advanced and shouldn't need to be. It's not a TV show. Have some imagination and don't just assume that because GW didn't (until end times/AoS) advance the storyline, nothing is happening or could happen.

Well my argument was to his that Fantasy was less stale then 40k for context., but I honest to god don't understand this. It's like if you want a setting it doesn't disappear if new things happen? I mean lets say Stormy mc stormersome of the thunderheartz tribe carved a bloody path through the Empire, shattering it and causing the empire to be splintered between various forces... Couldn't you just ignore it and play as you want anyways? I mean changing the storyline should open up many more settings as things are added or changed around, for which you could forge a narrative of the things you like or don't like.

It's just strange that you'd find it weird to play TK in AoS when you are forging your own narrative regardless, I honestly don't understand that.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

Any and all arguments about the WHFB background being boring, stale or static is just a non-argument to me. I'm not after a TV show, I'm after a wargame. Sure, the warhammer universe as you describe with nothing much really changing would make a crappy TV show, whereas the world as we know it ending sounds like a cracking season finale. But I'm not after a story, I'm after a setting. At the risk of sounding too "forge the narrativey", the static nature of the WHFB world allowed you to make your own stories and fight any battle you choose. It was open. Want to see what "happens" if the Empire gets invaded by Chaos "for real", then gather a couple of friends together and play a campaign around that scenario. If the Chaos player(s) win(s), then you can consider the storyline advanced; the next thing that happens in the WHFB world is that the Empire falls to this Chaos invasion. But guess what, the Empire haven't actually all died because the storyline is static, so when you play a pick-up game with your Empire the week after the campaign, it still makes sense in relation to the background of the warhammer world. Unlike, say, Tomb Kings, who have, to my knowledge (admittedly it's not great on AoS fluff but the models aren't around so I think I'm right) simply died or disappeared. Now if I play an AoS game with Tomb Kings, it doesn't make sense in relation to the AoS world. What a great storyline advancement, it's provided such a great setting for our games /sarcasm.

Short version is that the background of a wargaming universe should provide a setting on which you build, the storyline doesn't need to be advanced and shouldn't need to be. It's not a TV show. Have some imagination and don't just assume that because GW didn't (until end times/AoS) advance the storyline, nothing is happening or could happen.

Well my argument was to his that Fantasy was less stale then 40k for context., but I honest to god don't understand this. It's like if you want a setting it doesn't disappear if new things happen? I mean lets say Stormy mc stormersome of the thunderheartz tribe carved a bloody path through the Empire, shattering it and causing the empire to be splintered between various forces... Couldn't you just ignore it and play as you want anyways? I mean changing the storyline should open up many more settings as things are added or changed around, for which you could forge a narrative of the things you like or don't like.

It's just strange that you'd find it weird to play TK in AoS when you are forging your own narrative regardless, I honestly don't understand that.

I think the issue is more along with what you put forward stormy Mc Stormersome even though it would have screwed the empire, the rest of the world is still there, where AoS just nuked everything. In the first example, sure thats a big deal but every thing up to that mattered still, with AoS, everything from the old world is pointless now, just poof, gone, and i think thats what is upsetting most people.

Again just my observations and opinions on it.

I don't think that was the specific example seeing as he was talking about keeping the setting static in general, along with picking an AoS example with TK not being a primary army if available for people to play. (Though given some backgrounds, they may be planning a return)

He would hate Stormy mcstormersome changing the setting at all.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

There's just sooo much wrong with those arguments:

First thing first: how does ANY of what you've said actually constitute a bad sign, aside from the panic buys of last chance? I bought IoB's reincarnation and it was to begin my other two armies of AoS, and so did a friend of mine who wanted the rules for those elves. So your point of IoB's re-release is a flawed argument,further reinforced by the fact that they did the same with AoBR turning into battle for Vedros, or the re-edition of DV for 6->7th. GW likes to re-has their starters from time to time. GHB's added new rules and ways of playing, it's an expansion in the same way Planetary assault was for 40k. Matched play was literally designed by fans (the basis and assitance at least).

I fail to see the fun on the big kits. In fact, it hurt my mawkrushas's feelings.

You haven't played a lot of AoS competitively, haven't you? Nagash's is garbage tier. And I seriously mean it. In so far in the two big tournaments there's only been ONE death player in any of the two top fives. And it was a FEC (ghouls) list, no sign of Nagash anywhere close. Hell, even Tomb Kings whom the net will flaunt as extremely powerful didn't get beyond seventh place at warlords. But yeah, death placed second in a tournament and didn't figure at all in the following one's top 5. It's broken as feth. The fact that the top 5 armies were totally different despite there being no new army release shows us how unbalanced the game is.

That joe shmuck died and got a visit by sigmar and was offered the chance of getting a gakload of steroids and a shot at payback.Stormcasts are those that died at the hands of chaos right after losing EVERYTHING AGAIN and being on the verge of being wiped out. And he says yes, goes back and is angry. And even as his humanity is gnawed away bit by bit he'll remember that. And "stronger than that faceless horror"? What? Stormcasts are stronger than humans but nowhere the ridunkoloussness of space marines, they struggle to face the gak they are thrown away. For hell's sake, the guys from the starter set are slaughtered to a man by Archaon himself (and there was much joy). Stormcasts got crumpled during the tome pestilens, tome ironjawz and I think tome everchosen if not more. Basically these guys are smacked quite often and it's shown they are not the top dog. Like, at all.

And emotionless husk? Does this seem emotionless to you?

‘Lend me your might! If you can still
hear me, if you care still for the lives and
deeds of mortal men, then grant me as
much of your power as you might spare,
so that I may be avenged upon the slayers
of my folk, that I might kill them and kill
them and never rest, not until every last
drop of Chaos-ruined blood has been
spilt and washed away from the soil of
Amcarsh by clean rains. I do not ask to
be saved. I do not plead for my life. I ask
only for strength. I ask only to be
avenged!’

Yeah, yeah and throw way too much 40k grim dark space marines into Fantasy. You know what was good about Fantasy? It was the fact it was significantly different to 40k. No space marines, no constant grimdark BS, no main good guy faction on the same terms as the top bad guys and no good guys that wished they could be as good as other good guys. Every faction felt relevant rather than stormcast being the good guys everybody wish they could be or baddies wanting to be Chaos that normally never would (skaven). Dear lord do you guys even understand half of my points? Joe shmoe's battle can't be related to when he's a roided up super human in power armor than when he's a squishy normal man that could die in any horrible way at any time.

I will admit i didn't get too into AoS because it was pretty half ***ed when it came out. I tried to play it and didn't like it. You couldn't even play a game of points back then at the GW store. They wouldn't allow you to add balance when it came out. I admit they changed it a year later but by then i'd already moved on. Consider they basically **** on the Fantasy players and everything the Fantasy players liked. Basically GW always handled things too little too late or a lot too late. As much popularity AoS supposedly has i haven't seen it do so well at the local GW. Not many people are playing and at least less than played Fantasy. Perhaps other countries have it different as prices in some countries are way higher for these models but where i'm at i've seen a decrease in customers or at least games being played going from Fantasy to AoS. Fantasy needed a fix to be sure but they dialed it up to 11, added 40k into it and then half ***ed everything about it. Kirby was a dunce though and the new management seems to understand how to work a company. Shame he wasn't there to save Fantasy. I do find it interesting how much GW likes to **** on Fantasy players though. You can play any game GW made at their store and even blood bowl got re-vamped but hey screw Fantasy players. I still think the re-vamped IoB is a way to re-introduce Fantasy to have 3 games. At this point LotR/Hobbit sales are pretty much negligible.

Oh and don't take Kirby's words as worth more than something the cat threw up. End Times saw an increase in sales and i saw this myself and partly this is what bothered me about AoS because after spending 200 dollars or so to stay relevant they murdered Fantasy some months after. Why do you guys get such ****s and giggles for trolling Fantasy players? I realize you guys had a rough start but GW crapped on Fantasy. I'm sorry if they gave you a hard time but they murdered our game to give you yours. Had GW not done that you guys could do whatever you want including playing a game a flicking testicles and i wouldn't have cared. It's your money and your choice. What bothered me was how they delivered all this and how they handled it. It was a massive **** you to Fantasy players and they didn't even give us an option to play Fantasy after the average person threw down a thousand USD to play their Fantasy game.

For any who say they find it surprising i liked End Times i liked it to a degree. Some things it fixed with 8th or Fantasy and some things it went to far on. The world was moving forward and that was good (characters died, events happened and some various groups in various armies got wiped out). Sadly greenskins got left out mostly for no real reason other than not having enough time. The combination of the character profile with the monster it was riding was absolutely fantastic. It solved the whole cannons sniping characters off of really powerful monsters issue that prevented people from taking heroes or leaders on their mounts. To an extent it was still there but it wasn't as bad. The magic however was even more broken than before most notably the new undead lore (whatever the **** they called it). Nagash and some characters were broken as well. Skaven got a much needed update and got an actual worthwhile Vermin lord for its points cost though ratling cannons on stormfiends were fairly OP but probably nowhere along the lines of Nagash summoning a whole other army. I mixed on 50% for lords and heroes as it gave too much reliance on big heroes and less on the armies but stuff like vermin lords could be more easily fielded (which oddly couldn't lead skaven armies). A lot of the models made were really good barring the gumball machine of skulls look of the 3 top generals of Nagash and the really weird feet of the vermin lord. I even laughed at the little brainy skaven dude in the back of every stormfiend carried like a baby carrier as it fit the wacky feel of skaven and frankenstein feel of clan moulder (at least in my eyes). I also enjoyed the combining of some factions (all undead) but to a lesser extent the combining of elves who probably should've relied more on malekith's army vs tyrion's army and what those armies composed of rather than all 3 broken factions of elves that were even more broken when they came together.

Anyway the biggest issue i had with End Times is that it ended and Fantasy died. It seemed more like a campaign than anything and it was highly successful at that. Notice how the voices of complaints were fairly low until the final book reveals the game dies and AoS confirming that not only could we not play games taking place before the story ended but we could never play another game again. I'll admit some of the stories in End Times sounded odd and screwed over so factions hardcore but parts of it were a step in the right direction and others weren't whereas AoS didn't give a **** and just crapped all over everything that was Fantasy. Aside from the factions themselves little else about remains similar to fantasy including much of the lore.

I think that's because settings are traditionally static and never change and just provide a backdrop.

I honestly don't see the fuss either way. If one wants to play in the old world, one can just simply set their games in the old world easy enough.

You can't destroy a fictional world that never existed in the first place.

 auticus wrote:
I think that's because settings are traditionally static and never change and just provide a backdrop.

I honestly don't see the fuss either way. If one wants to play in the old world, one can just simply set their games in the old world easy enough.

You can't destroy a fictional world that never existed in the first place.

Yeah but the death of Fantasy and not allowing people to play at a GW hurts the dead game. Sure they still sell the models somewhat but it's harder if you need the rules and other things like possible movement trays, FAQ, people to play against and so on. Not to mention if you had an army that really needed an update like skaven (8 page FAQ forever now :(), bretonnia or beastmen it was even harder to stay into the game. I will never get an update with new models for my game with rules that put them on line with other 8th edition armies because the game is dead. I also have the misfortune to be unable to travel to other game stores. The point mostly being yeah you can do what you want but it'll be that much harder to play the game you once loved and the Fantasy models are still super expensive unless you buy from other companies or on ebay now which you should as a big '**** YOU!' to GW for doing what they did.

no constant grimdark BS

Pardon? Are we still.. talking about warhammer fantasy?

Dear lord do you guys even understand half of my points? Joe shmoe's battle can't be related to when he's a roided up super human in power armor than when he's a squishy normal man that could die in any horrible way at any time.

Then relate to the free people.. Or anyone else BESIDES the stormcast which are ONE FACTION, honestly at this point half your points are understood, but you keep trotting them out like they are your discussions answer to everything while ignoring anything and everything else.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Yeah, yeah and throw way too much 40k grim dark space marines into Fantasy. You know what was good about Fantasy? It was the fact it was significantly different to 40k. No space marines, no constant grimdark BS, no main good guy faction on the same terms as the top bad guys and no good guys that wished they could be as good as other good guys. Every faction felt relevant rather than stormcast being the good guys everybody wish they could be or baddies wanting to be Chaos that normally never would (skaven). Dear lord do you guys even understand half of my points? Joe shmoe's battle can't be related to when he's a roided up super human in power armor than when he's a squishy normal man that could die in any horrible way at any time.

Only that you're NOT making actual points. You're not relating to Joe as you don't see him getting the chance of doing something he'd not be able to do but needed to as something good. At the end of the day you just want him to languish and suffer while you are pleasing yourself at said "humane" torment. But give him a fighting chance his bad. Nevermind that he'll still have a high likelihood of suffering a horrible death and an even worse fate afterwards, because the gak he's thrown at has gotten worse. He's stronger now thanks to a god. feth HIM!
AoS doesn't throw you a constant stream of the same tone. It has its upbeat moments like the defense of phoenicium. It has moments of grim desperation like the assaults on chamon and aqshy too.
Stormcasts appear often enough but ALL the factions are relevant. The maw gate on ghur fell due to the Ironjaws' interventions. freeing a massive swathe of territory. The forces of Alarielle were fundamental in retaking the realm of life. Greywater Fastness, a simbol of hope of the realms, was defended by bogstandard humans and dwarfs, succeeding by a hair's breath as they pulled their trap. Not in a single point on season of war's lore Stormcasts are mentioned. And it was a big event.

.

Inconsequential butthurt and ranting.

So basically you don't know what you're talking about. Fine. DON'T TALK ABOUT BALANCE THEN. At least have the decency to look a bit on how things are before speaking out of your arssse.

Oh and don't take Kirby's words as worth more than something the cat threw up. End Times saw an increase in sales and i saw this myself and partly this is what bothered me about AoS because after spending 200 dollars or so to stay relevant they murdered Fantasy some months after. Why do you guys get such ****s and giggles for trolling Fantasy players? I realize you guys had a rough start but GW crapped on Fantasy. I'm sorry if they gave you a hard time but they murdered our game to give you yours. Had GW not done that you guys could do whatever you want including playing a game a flicking testicles and i wouldn't have cared. It's your money and your choice. What bothered me was how they delivered all this and how they handled it. It was a massive **** you to Fantasy players and they didn't even give us an option to play Fantasy after the average person threw down a thousand USD to play their Fantasy game.

Yeah, let's not take the word of the company's CEO who more than likely had more data than your local enviroment or, hell, me going through half the country this year. You're right, your store makes 99% of GW's revenue and/ anything that happened there is the source of GW's data or the template that ALL stores will follow. They gave you an option to play their new version of the Fantasy game without the need of shelling more cash (unless you wanted to). It was a massive fruck you to people who wanted to take it as such. Shinros and Klatz and a whole bunch of people played Fantasy before and don't go around lambasting AoS.

I'm not even going to bother the ton of things to point out from the rest of the comment.

Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

AoS is the best thing that could have happened for GW's fantasy line - period.

 oni wrote:
AoS is the best thing that could have happened for GW's fantasy line - period.

Now, that's not really the truth. It was a good thing given the current state (and I'm not really complaining about it) but I'm pretty sure it would have been an even better thing had they decided to take good measures from the get go rather than let the game wither away for 2 editions.

Good measures would have simply been promoting the game with advertisements and video game support. AOS was simply not necessary until they bloated and killed WFB. As has been stated by SEVERAL posters on here, the 6th Ed. era didn't have any issues with new players. It was 7th-8th that destroyed the playerbase. So yeah, publicising the game is what would have saved it. I'm wondering how much it'd cost to get the guys on Big Bang Theory to play the game on an episode? If they are even half as geeky as their characters, they'd probably do it for free. You couldn't GET better advertising. Look how much geek culture is mainstream today simply because of TV. ESPN 2 running M:TG tourneys on TV helped immensely with their player base, same could be done here.

 Just Tony wrote:
Good measures would have simply been promoting the game with advertisements and video game support. AOS was simply not necessary until they bloated and killed WFB. As has been stated by SEVERAL posters on here, the 6th Ed. era didn't have any issues with new players. It was 7th-8th that destroyed the playerbase. So yeah, publicising the game is what would have saved it. I'm wondering how much it'd cost to get the guys on Big Bang Theory to play the game on an episode? If they are even half as geeky as their characters, they'd probably do it for free. You couldn't GET better advertising. Look how much geek culture is mainstream today simply because of TV. ESPN 2 running M:TG tourneys on TV helped immensely with their player base, same could be done here.

You mean it already had video game support. Or are we going to ignore Shadows of the horned rat, Dark Omen, Mark Of Chaos with expansion, and Warhammer Online? There was a few other games but I can't really remember them.

You have those, but at the same time how many 40K players trace their start in this hobby to Chaos Gate, Final Liberation, or Rites of War? Mark of Chaos should have been able to bring in people, for the life of me I don't know why it wouldn't have. WOL was a failure if I remember correctly, something about going up against the world's larges MMORPG or something like that.


Still doesn't change the fact that some advertising would have went a long way. Do you think AOS would benefit from some mainstream advertising?

Apparently its selling better than wfb has in years. Especially state side. New setting. Easier rules. Lower price point for getting in.

AoS may not be popular every where. But neither was wfb.

Gw wont role back to the old setting. Nuking it freedom from alot of old copywrite and royality issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nothing stopping people from playing games in the old setting.

 Just Tony wrote:
You have those, but at the same time how many 40K players trace their start in this hobby to Chaos Gate, Final Liberation, or Rites of War? Mark of Chaos should have been able to bring in people, for the life of me I don't know why it wouldn't have. WOL was a failure if I remember correctly, something about going up against the world's larges MMORPG or something like that.


Still doesn't change the fact that some advertising would have went a long way. Do you think AOS would benefit from some mainstream advertising?

Warhammer Online was poorly funded and thrown out before even two of the classes was made, EA botched it hard but it's memorable considering it was a triple AAA developer doing it.

But let's be honest, nobody expected future games to be better for WHFB, Total Warhammer could've been as bad as Rome 2 at the start, The Skaven one could've been unmemorable and likewise for the rest. Also People Remember Chaos Gate and Rites of War?

And GW is attempting it now, considering such, the main issue is that they are starting it up after nearly a decade of failure to understand either the market or their playerbase. Their community site and Facebook team is surprisingly good at what they do.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

Thats not what I have heard. Which brings up another great point - none of us know wtf is going on in the Ivory Tower. But trying to keep attaching that moron's words from years ago to today is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. When he said it a few years ago, absolutely! Today? Not so much.