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The line different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner is not an exclusion

1 I try and use my rad grenade to replace an attack in melee

2 rad grenade has no profile see unusual grenade rule

3 unusual grenade as you have no profile you cannot make a melee or throw attack unless it's in the rad grenade special rules

4 check rad grenade special rules it isnt

5 you cannot replace a melee attack

Nowhere does it say if you cannot make a melee attack your not an unusual grenade

U02dah4 wrote:
Mr charistoph while i agree with most of what you wrote unusual grenades are a specificly defined special rule in the grenades section of the main rule book that reads

"Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"

It is the lack of a profile that makes rad grenades unusual


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Ceann wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Also going back a couple but the unusual grenade rule has no restrict on on replacing a melee attack as part of that rule says you can't make an attack

Dude.

The box that says unusual grenades tells you what unusual grenades do.

The paragraph above that tells you what an unusual grenade IS.
You only consult the box labeled unusual grenades IF you are replacing a melee attack to use one.

We are not doing that. Please read that whole section.

You can say we are not doing that all you want but me and the three gaming groups I play at are going to do it because that's the raw the above section does not apply to unusual grenades the bit your referring to is referring to the entire grenades section and the unusual grenades special rule overides that as you can't make a melee attack without a profile

You are told.
Explicitly.
SEE BELOW.
To refer to the below, unusual grenades, when making a melee attack replacement with a grenade.

Are we making a melee attack with rad grenades?

No.

I understand what the shiny box that says unusual grenades says. The text above that tells you the circumstances in which you would read this box and use what it says. You continue to reiterate the contents of the box but you ignore the part about when you are told to use the box.

Rad grenades do not make or replace an attack.

See above sequence

You are not making one because the unusual grenades rule prevents you but point 4 is defining it's rules as special

The lack of profile it is referencing is a melee profile for grenades, which they do not have, you cannot punch someone with a grenade, which is why grenades have a shooting profile.

How do you make a melee attack with a grenade that doesn't have a melee profile?

That is what an unusual grenade is, and the rules for melta and haywire allow you to make a pseudo melee attack against vehicles without counting as a second melee weapon.


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U02dah4 wrote:
See above sequence

You are not making one because the unusual grenades rule prevents you but point 4 is defining it's rules as special

Without the unusual grenade rule you could not use meltabombs or haywire grenade.

They replace a melee attack.
I hope you understand now.

Please read the text above unusual grenades.

It is a rule for making melee attacks for grenades. If you are not making a melee attack with a grenade then you do not need to consult the unusual grenades text.

Ceann wrote:


You are told.
Explicitly.
SEE BELOW.

Incorrect. You are told . . .

"Different grenades have different profiles when used in this manner, as explained below."

The bit about Unusual Grenades is an insert describing an exception for grenades that don't have profiles and can't be used as a shooting or Melee weapon. The insert isn't part of "as explained below" since (1) it's an insert and (2) doesn't have to do with the subject being explained ('different profiles').

U02dah4 wrote:Mr charistoph while i agree with most of what you wrote unusual grenades are a specificly defined special rule in the grenades section of the main rule book that reads

"Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise these grenades cannot be thrown or used as melee weapons"

It is the lack of a profile that makes rad grenades unusual

And I'm just trying to get him to recognize that this is "not normal". It is as much the "not normal" that defines the special rule as anything else.

That and he REALLY needs to work on quoting things properly. It is often hard to understand what he is addressing sometimes.

Ceann wrote:It doesn't state all grenades reduce a Stat by one, if you read them they do not all say that. They have permission to do so by virtue of being wargear they are not to do so.

Immaterial. It is different from the normal operations of the game, so it is breaking the game's rules.

Ceann wrote:The pistol type has a rule that counts it as an extra weapon in assault. Where is the confusion?

Reread the Pistol Type rule again. You may be reading an old rulebook then.

Ceann wrote:If you go to a unit that has chapter tactics it will be listed under the special rules section of the datasheet. With the words special rules.

And the actual explanation of which is in the Appendix under its own section like the Ranged Weapons and Melee Weapons. The point is that the actual definition of special rule is more important than its location. Understand?

Ceann wrote:Word games with unusual. Unusual grenades are a rule for grenades that replace a melee attack, otherwise you could punch a cultist with a meltabomb, or count as having two weapons. Hence the need for a section elaborating on how to use grenades that replace a melee attack. Rad grenades do not replace a melee attack which I'd required to reference unusual grenades.

Umm, no. The word games with unusual were to demonstrate the point of the concept of "special rule".

Unusual Grenades do not replace a Weapon's Attack unless they specifically state they do. In fact, they "cannot be thrown or used as a Melee weapon." Grenades only replace Melee Attacks when a, "model... use(s) such a grenade as a Melee weapon".

Or are you saying that a unit with Assault Grenades charging through Terrain can either use all their Attacks at Initiative 1 or no Attacks at all?

Meltabombs are not an Unusual Grenade by the pop-out's definition.

Ceann wrote:Can everyone move 12, no... look at the unit types section and a units data sheet. As you can see a unit has a unit type and each type will show the base moment of units of that type. So any unit that I'd a calvary unit can move 12, infantry are a different type of unit.

Is moving more than 6" breaking the basic rules of the game?


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Ceann wrote:
The lack of profile it is referencing is a melee profile for grenades, which they do not have, you cannot punch someone with a grenade, which is why grenades have a shooting profile.

How do you make a melee attack with a grenade that doesn't have a melee profile?

That is what an unusual grenade is, and the rules for melta and haywire allow you to make a pseudo melee attack against vehicles without counting as a second melee weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
See above sequence

You are not making one because the unusual grenades rule prevents you but point 4 is defining it's rules as special

Without the unusual grenade rule you could not use meltabombs or haywire grenade.

They replace a melee attack.
I hope you understand now.

Please read the text above unusual grenades.

The "Unusual Grenades" is separation from the normal process of reading. The "as explained below" is referring to Assault Grenades, Krak Grenades, etc., not just what is below it on the epub screen. It also says to use their special rules....

And Inquisition Rad Grenades don't carry any Weapon Profile...

It breaking the rules is your opinion.
Page 8 states wargear is allowed to subtract.
It is subtracting, what rule is being broken?

I don't have my codex with me at the moment if you have some point you are failing to make about pistols then state it rather than alluding to it and wondering why I didn't come back with the bone you were looking for.

Chapter tactics are identified on a data sheet as a special rule. From what I recall codex do not commonly have dedicated special rules sections, being located in the appendix is for ease of access. The important part is that it is labeled as a special rule.

What unusual grenades do is irrelevant, I understand it is a box with text in it. Above the box it details the circumstances under which you consult said box. Making a melee attack replacement is that circumstance, which we are not doing. Anything in that box is therefore void of relevance.

Only one model in a unit throws a grenade, that model does not make attacks, the others do. For assualt, they are not making a shooting attack, the rules for grenades assaulting is that they provide something when equipped.

Is moving more than 6 breaking a rule... not sure if you are being intentionally dense here. Units have a unit type, each unit type dictates it's base movement and rules attached to that unit type. Probably why unit type is listed on datasheets. Weapons have a base type, heavy assault pistol etc and have the base rules for those types.

It almost seems like you think there are a small number of base rules and everything is a special rule modifying those rules, this is not the case.

Ceann wrote:
The lack of profile it is referencing is a melee profile for grenades, which they do not have, you cannot punch someone with a grenade, which is why grenades have a shooting profile.

How do you make a melee attack with a grenade that doesn't have a melee profile?

That is what an unusual grenade is, and the rules for melta and haywire allow you to make a pseudo melee attack against vehicles without counting as a second melee weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
See above sequence

You are not making one because the unusual grenades rule prevents you but point 4 is defining it's rules as special

Without the unusual grenade rule you could not use meltabombs or haywire grenade.

They replace a melee attack.
I hope you understand now.

Please read the text above unusual grenades.

It is a rule for making melee attacks for grenades. If you are not making a melee attack with a grenade then you do not need to consult the unusual grenades text.

Umm

Both melta bombs and haywire grenades have profiles therefore they are not an unusual grenade
these are there profiles
melta bomb R- S8 AP1 armourbane unwieldy
Haywire grenade R- S2 AP- Haywire

you'll find both these in the melta bomb and haywire sections of the grenades rules in additions both sections give you rules for using them in assaults such as melta bombs being exclusive to assaults and not able to be thrown

Ceann wrote:
It breaking the rules is your opinion.
Page 8 states wargear is allowed to subtract.
It is subtracting, what rule is being broken?

Ceann, what's the definition of a 'basic rule'?

U02dah4 wrote:

Ceann wrote:
The lack of profile it is referencing is a melee profile for grenades, which they do not have, you cannot punch someone with a grenade, which is why grenades have a shooting profile.

How do you make a melee attack with a grenade that doesn't have a melee profile?

That is what an unusual grenade is, and the rules for melta and haywire allow you to make a pseudo melee attack against vehicles without counting as a second melee weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
See above sequence

You are not making one because the unusual grenades rule prevents you but point 4 is defining it's rules as special

Without the unusual grenade rule you could not use meltabombs or haywire grenade.

They replace a melee attack.
I hope you understand now.

Please read the text above unusual grenades.

It is a rule for making melee attacks for grenades. If you are not making a melee attack with a grenade then you do not need to consult the unusual grenades text.

Umm

Both melta bombs and haywire grenades have profiles therefore they are not an unusual grenade
these are there profiles
melta bomb R- S8 AP1 armourbane unwieldy
Haywire grenade R- S2 AP- Haywire

you'll find both these in the melta bomb and haywire sections of the grenades rules in additions both sections give you rules for using them in assaults such as melta bombs being exclusive to assaults and not able to be thrown

Sparky.

Do you see in either of those two profiles that listed the MELEE rule?
No? Me neither.
You cannot use them in melee.

But wait Ceann, we can only use these in melee!
Oh I guess they must be an unusual grenade because they do not have a profile for melee right?
Yes, Ceann, they are quite unusual.

Ok, then use the provided rules for unusual grenades.
Hmmm, no melee profile, okay, so what do the grenades say, oh wow, they give me a non melee profile to use in melee.
Now flip back a page to Melee Weapons.
Chainsword - type melee, lighting claws - type melee, powerfist - type melee.
Do you see now? Unusual Grenades allow you to make a melee attack with those profiles without them actually having the melee attribute.

So amaze.


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col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
It breaking the rules is your opinion.
Page 8 states wargear is allowed to subtract.
It is subtracting, what rule is being broken?

Ceann, what's the definition of a 'basic rule'?

You can find that on page 13 sir.
I am sure you have a BRB.

But 1 they have profile so are not unusual grenades

2 if you read that bit before the unusual grenades section the one that says "a model can use such a grenade as a melee weapon," that's what gives it permission to use it in assault not the unusual grenades rule

3 check the haywire grenade rules "Unless used in assaults against vehicles haywire grenades have no effect when used in assaults against vehicles haywire grenades have the following profile"
r- s2 ap- haywire
this also gives you permission just encase you weren't sure
note the phrase using the following profile which strongly suggests to me that it has a profile and therefore is not an unusual grenade


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melta bombs "when used in assaults against vehicles buildings gun emplacements or monstrous creatures melta bombs have the following profile"

oh wait doesn't this sound like a profile

R- S8 AP1 armourbane unwieldy
IT IS!!!!

I don't know how possibly more obtuse you could be with this.

Some grenades can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements etc but have to be clamped into place.

A model can use such a grenade as a melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack. DIFFERENT GRENADES HAVE DIFFERENT PROFILE WHEN USED IN THIS MANNER.... AS EXPLAINED BELOW.

What is below my good man???
Unusual Grenades.

What manner you say???
Against vehicles or gun emplacements or FMC GMC as a melee weapon sir!

Are we using Rad grenades in this manner?
What manner sir?
As a melee weapon, as explained below.
No sir, I don't think we are using Rad grenades as a melee weapon.
So we don't need to reference "as explained below - Unusual Grenades"?
No sir, we do not.

Thank the heavens Godfrey.

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Ceann, what's the definition of a 'basic rule'?

You can find that on page 13 sir.
I am sure you have a BRB.

So what is it? Apparently you have not read it since your usage does not correspond to its definition. So what do you think the definition is?

Ceann wrote:
I don't know how possibly more obtuse you could be with this.

Some grenades can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements etc but have to be clamped into place.

A model can use such a grenade as a melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack. DIFFERENT GRENADES HAVE DIFFERENT PROFILE WHEN USED IN THIS MANNER.... AS EXPLAINED BELOW.

What is below my good man???
Unusual Grenades.

What manner you say???
Against vehicles or gun emplacements or FMC GMC as a melee weapon sir!

Are we using Rad grenades in this manner?
What manner sir?
As a melee weapon, as explained below.
No sir, I don't think we are using Rad grenades as a melee weapon.
So we don't need to reference "as explained below - Unusual Grenades"?
No sir, we do not.

Thank the heavens Godfrey.

I'm being obtuse a half dozen people disagree with you not one person all day has supported you take a hint

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Ceann, what's the definition of a 'basic rule'?

You can find that on page 13 sir.
I am sure you have a BRB.

So what is it? Apparently you have not read it since your usage does not correspond to its definition. So what do you think the definition is?

Apparently you can't find a BRB and read it since you consistently fail to provide any page number references or quotes. You should acquire one.
If you otherwise have a point to make, I suggest you try to make it rather than alluding to it and expecting me to guess for you.


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U02dah4 wrote:

Ceann wrote:
I don't know how possibly more obtuse you could be with this.

Some grenades can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements etc but have to be clamped into place.

A model can use such a grenade as a melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack. DIFFERENT GRENADES HAVE DIFFERENT PROFILE WHEN USED IN THIS MANNER.... AS EXPLAINED BELOW.

What is below my good man???
Unusual Grenades.

What manner you say???
Against vehicles or gun emplacements or FMC GMC as a melee weapon sir!

Are we using Rad grenades in this manner?
What manner sir?
As a melee weapon, as explained below.
No sir, I don't think we are using Rad grenades as a melee weapon.
So we don't need to reference "as explained below - Unusual Grenades"?
No sir, we do not.

Thank the heavens Godfrey.

I'm being obtuse a half dozen people disagree with you not one person all day has supported you take a hint

You cannot answer the questions.

Are we using rad grenades, in the manner referenced, to qualify as unusual grenades?
Are we using them as a melee weapon against vehicles, gun emplacements or MC's?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Ceann, what's the definition of a 'basic rule'?

You can find that on page 13 sir.
I am sure you have a BRB.

So what is it? Apparently you have not read it since your usage does not correspond to its definition. So what do you think the definition is?

Apparently you can't find a BRB and read it since you consistently fail to provide any page number references or quotes. You should acquire one.
If you otherwise have a point to make, I suggest you try to make it rather than alluding to it and expecting me to guess for you.

My point is you do not know what the definition of a 'basic rule' is. You have not used it correctly and you do not know what the definition is. Prove me wrong.

Apparently neither do you since you can't quote the page and make your point. Prove me wrong.

Got it, Ceann. You don't know what 'basic rule' means. Therefore, your entire argument is invalid.

Right... because you won't claim where it has been used wrong. So you have an argument you wont make so therefore my argument is invalid.... lmao.


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Rad Grenades - During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the vitctims Instant Death threshold).

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

What rule applies to all wargear?

Ceann wrote:
Right... because you won't claim where it has been used wrong. So you have an argument you wont make so therefore my argument is invalid.... lmao.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rad Grenades - During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the vitctims Instant Death threshold).

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

Show permission in the basic rules for grenades to reduce Toughness

Page 8 brb, under modifiers....

Basic rules apply to all models in the game unless stated otherwise.

Does this effect apply to all models? Yes.

Do all wargear have this rule?

Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively.
If you think there is something illegal here, point out exactly why you think so.
If no one finds anything illegal then we have to accept that it is indeed legal and valid according to the rules.

You didn't answer the question.

Do all wargear have this rule?

"During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the victim's Instant Death threshold)."

Well you aren't pointing anything out wrong.
So I guess were all done here.
If there is a basic rule being broken let me know what it is.

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

Wargear is permitted to modify and it is doing so.
If you think otherwise point out the rules I break.

Do you agree that only rad grenades have this rule and that not all wargear have this rule?

"During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the victim's Instant Death threshold)."

State your point, the answer to the question is obvious.
Unless you feel enfeebled otherwise.
The attempt to be coy is boring.

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

Wargear is permitted to modify and it is doing so.
If you think otherwise point out the rules I break.

Do you agree then that this is not a basic rule?

"During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the victim's Instant Death threshold)."

It is a rule on a piece of wargear.