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... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?

First off - I love the new kit with Celestine and her Seraphim Guard ... but I wouldn't be a true Sisters fan if I didn't have ... concerns ... about something. And here's what concerns me, aside from still needing to SEE some more plastic Sisters kits: SoB have way too often been the whipping girls for the various enemies of Mankind. The Sisters make a valiant, self-sacrificial last stand against hopeless odds ... in essence, they get Worfed so that whatever flavor of SM shows up to actually save the day gets to really bask in the limelight. It's ... frustrating.

So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I really like Draenei in WoW and Sisters of Battle in WH40k.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the "evil guy's punching bag" factions for some reason.

"St Celestine at the head of a Black Templars Crusade into the Cadian Gate", he said in the video. I'm still not convinced "Sisters" will be involved beyond Celestine and her bodyguards - I want confirmation of that before I start worrying about narratives or anything.

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?
...
So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I love you guys. There is just no stopping.
You know that you basically play an army of jeanne d'arc's in a distopian sifi setting right, and that martyrdom is actually a rule in your codex ?
Ever considered what this is going to mean for the general theme of the army fluff ?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?
...
So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I love you guys. There is just no stopping.
You know that you basically play an army of jeanne d'arc's in a distopian sifi setting right, and that martyrdom is actually a rule in your codex ?
Ever considered what this is going to mean for the general theme of the army fluff ?

I second that.
Why are my army the whipping boys!? Because that's the story they were modelled off.

lolwut the theme of SoB is get beaten so thr SM look tougher?

nooooooope

Won't all the Sisters just die when the Grey Knights come in and need to anoint their armour with Sisters blood so they can go up against the demons that will be passing through?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
... get crushed by Chaos at Cadia?
...
So here is my plea to GW - please please please do not make (or do not have made) Saint Celestine and the SoB the fall girls of Gathering Storm and beyond!

I love you guys. There is just no stopping.
You know that you basically play an army of jeanne d'arc's in a distopian sifi setting right, and that martyrdom is actually a rule in your codex ?
Ever considered what this is going to mean for the general theme of the army fluff ?

I've, uh, read Sisters of Battle lore.

They're not really the Joan of Arc type.

They're more the intolerant, religious zealot nutjobs who burn nonbelievers at the stake and would not be able to tolerate the reality that the Emperor did not want humanity to have any religion whatsoever, if they knew that was even a thing.

Their god literally destroyed the concept of human religion and did not fancy himself a god, merely a powerful human.

I mean, there's a reason my own personal army's fanfiction has them being debrainwashed by alien technology to a degree that loyal Imperial citizens would consider them heretics, and they took refuge on a non-Imperial planet that was so utterly terrified of the Imperium they literally installed FTL engines into their planet and fled to a part of the galaxy beyond the Astronomican's light, to avoid any Imperial forces coming across them.

And that reason is that I cannot enjoy playing an army as inherently evil as Sisters of Battle are, so I had to invent my own fanfiction to be able to play my army.

You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game for you ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game die you ?

I'm a roleplayer. I'm comfortable with fanfiction.

It's also worth noting that literally no other game in existence has an army like Sisters of Battle in their plastic model ranges. I checked. Repeatedly.

*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

We'll give the bad guys a few more minutes to work them over before saving the day. After all, if we save a lot of them, it won't look as heroic to beat the great evil of the day!

But seriously, the downside to being in the first campaign book means that the next one you can get beaten down so they can sell whatever new models for the other faction. The only exception has been the Tau, who got two releases in the same campaign, thus didn't have to lose at all.

I mean, the wolves were holding back the Daemons and Chaos in book one, then the thousand sons and Magnus show up, and despite sort of reinforcements from every major chapter showing up in the Fenris system, Magnus completely wrecks house.

Maybe Celestine can break something important before being forced to cheese it. Take down a Daemon Primarch they don't want to make a model for, maybe? I mean, Celestine beating down Lorgar is something I am a-ok with, personally. What other Daemon Primarch would be more fitting for her to take on, after all?

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

We'll give the bad guys a few more minutes to work them over before saving the day. After all, if we save a lot of them, it won't look as heroic to beat the great evil of the day!

But seriously, the downside to being in the first campaign book means that the next one you can get beaten down so they can sell whatever new models for the other faction. The only exception has been the Tau, who got two releases in the same campaign, thus didn't have to lose at all.

I mean, the wolves were holding back the Daemons and Chaos in book one, then the thousand sons and Magnus show up, and despite sort of reinforcements from every major chapter showing up in the Fenris system, Magnus completely wrecks house.

Maybe Celestine can break something important before being forced to cheese it. Take down a Daemon Primarch they don't want to make a model for, maybe? I mean, Celestine beating down Lorgar is something I am a-ok with, personally. What other Daemon Primarch would be more fitting for her to take on, after all?

Erm, just want to mention something about Celestine's possible death on Cadia...

According to the lore for Celestine dating back to the Witch Hunters' Codex, she is effectively immortal, and shows up on the most dire battlefields, and has done so for literally thousands of years since her death (seriously, they tolled ALL the bells for her death). Even her rules include a special rule where she can literally ignore her death, and in 3e it used to be a permanent ability that could be used an infinite number of times (more recently they limited her to one attempt per game only).

The factual answer to any "which special character would win this fight if the combat persisted until death?" used to be Celestine in literally every instance she was capable of harming her opponent, because without the restriction on turn limits she could just keep coming back to life and fighting until she died until she got lucky enough to deal enough wounds to kill the target, which would happen eventually due to probability allowing for any possible dice roll to happen given enough attempts. The idea that a person could not guess the outcome of 100 dice rolls in a row based on pure luck goes out the window if you simply keep guessing and rolling an infinite number of times.

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

Let's be honest now, Varian hogged all of the spotlight. The minute Varian died we have Tyrande and Genn getting attention, though I suppose if you are a Draenei fan it could be a little frustrating that the Legion expansion has such little Draenei presence. The Paladin order hall only has one Draenei! I'm pretty sure the priests only have one as well.

Probably a knee jerk reaction from Blizzard after the steaming turd that was WoD. You can tell Yrel was meant for more than WoD, but it probably got tossed after the fan base reacted negatively to everything WoD. At the very least, Yrel should be in the Paladin order hall over Boros.

As for Space Marines... my poor Ultramarines are soon to be the only loyalist Chapter without any special rules, relics, or warlord traits. Sure we got characters, but let's be honest, Only one of them are usable compared to Vulkan He'stan and the Khan. The real problem for people wanting to see more than space marines at this point is that the Horus Heresy has been selling so well - it sends a pretty clear signal to GW what the people want more of.

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

My head canon for my character is that he's from Stromgarde, is a fan of Warcraft 2s style of mounting their heads on pikes, and doesn't care much for the namby pambys in Stormwind and their constant slacking about the real issues. Like the Forsaken, and the Trolls.

Really, every other Alliance race has turned into a bootlick for Stormwind, which is just sad. I wish there was some friction between Tyrande/Anduin going on, since Anduin's peace mongering is so anti-Nelf interests. Though, Varians peace mongering got the Horde out of Ashenvale fluff wise, so...

As for Space Marines, the only way I could play a more vanilla, boring army is by playing Guardsmen. Literally the boring, vanilla masses!

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

We'll give the bad guys a few more minutes to work them over before saving the day. After all, if we save a lot of them, it won't look as heroic to beat the great evil of the day!

But seriously, the downside to being in the first campaign book means that the next one you can get beaten down so they can sell whatever new models for the other faction. The only exception has been the Tau, who got two releases in the same campaign, thus didn't have to lose at all.

I mean, the wolves were holding back the Daemons and Chaos in book one, then the thousand sons and Magnus show up, and despite sort of reinforcements from every major chapter showing up in the Fenris system, Magnus completely wrecks house.

Maybe Celestine can break something important before being forced to cheese it. Take down a Daemon Primarch they don't want to make a model for, maybe? I mean, Celestine beating down Lorgar is something I am a-ok with, personally. What other Daemon Primarch would be more fitting for her to take on, after all?

Erm, just want to mention something about Celestine's possible death on Cadia...

According to the lore for Celestine dating back to the Witch Hunters' Codex, she is effectively immortal, and shows up on the most dire battlefields, and has done so for literally thousands of years since her death (seriously, they tolled ALL the bells for her death). Even her rules include a special rule where she can literally ignore her death, and in 3e it used to be a permanent ability that could be used an infinite number of times (more recently they limited her to one attempt per game only).

The factual answer to any "which special character would win this fight if the combat persisted until death?" used to be Celestine in literally every instance she was capable of harming her opponent, because without the restriction on turn limits she could just keep coming back to life and fighting until she died until she got lucky enough to deal enough wounds to kill the target, which would happen eventually due to probability allowing for any possible dice roll to happen given enough attempts. The idea that a person could not guess the outcome of 100 dice rolls in a row based on pure luck goes out the window if you simply keep guessing and rolling an infinite number of times.

Well, yes, but she can still die, even temporarily. There are things that Chaos has that even the Emperor feared - such as Drach'nyen, the End of Empires. A Daemon Blade powerful enough that the Emperor literally sealed it inside a Custodes and told him to run as far as he could, and buy Humanity as much time as he could by running. I guess it depends if Drach'nyen is powerful enough to devour her soul, but considering it has feasted on the blood of the Emperor, I think our good Saint has a reason to be worried.

Personally, I think if there's going to be an epic duel in the book (there always is, even when the tau are involved!) it will be Abaddon vs Celestine.

And didn't Celestine still have to roll to come back on like a 3+?

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

Let's be honest now, Varian hogged all of the spotlight. The minute Varian died we have Tyrande and Genn getting attention, though I suppose if you are a Draenei fan it could be a little frustrating that the Legion expansion has such little Draenei presence. The Paladin order hall only has one Draenei! I'm pretty sure the priests only have one as well.

Probably a knee jerk reaction from Blizzard after the steaming turd that was WoD. You can tell Yrel was meant for more than WoD, but it probably got tossed after the fan base reacted negatively to everything WoD. At the very least, Yrel should be in the Paladin order hall over Boros.

As for Space Marines... my poor Ultramarines are soon to be the only loyalist Chapter without any special rules, relics, or warlord traits. Sure we got characters, but let's be honest, Only one of them are usable compared to Vulkan He'stan and the Khan. The real problem for people wanting to see more than space marines at this point is that the Horus Heresy has been selling so well - it sends a pretty clear signal to GW what the people want more of.

Anduin is High King now. They made a borderline pacifist the supreme commander of all Alliance military forces purely because he is the King of Stormwind.

Honestly, as a Draenei fan, given what happened in Warlords, Legion, and the Warcraft movie, I wish we'd actually stayed neglected, because we've been in the spotlight a LOT over the past couple of years, and it has sucked to watch my favorite race die by the hundreds every time we come across them.

The opening scene of the Warcraft movie, showing the Dark Portal from Draenor's end, simultaneously writes the entire Draenei Genocide fiction out of existence by having no Path of Glory and hundreds of surviving Draenei prisoners (they literally killed every Draenei the moment they found them in the game lore, the concept of taking Draenei prisoners was never entertained, as they were literally just trying to exterminate the entire species and the planet was still habitable), while also killing WAY more Draenei on-screen than died to open the Dark Portal in the game canon (only one Draenei was murdered to open the Dark Portal in the game lore, and in the game the Dark Portal is permanently active, it does NOT need "fuel") and also having the one character in the game who tried to stop the murder of Draenei (Durotan) not even view it as being immoral.

Warlords of Draenor had dead and dying Draenei literally everywhere we went, the Draenei army in Hellfire Citadel cheered for the Orc Warlord who'd been waging a war to kill them all, and the change of capitol city from Karabor to Ashran was infuriating.

In addition, the Alliance is no longer definable as an Alliance of equals, it is now a Humans-first club and every other race are second-class citizens.

Also, Space Marines have half a dozen Codices dedicated to individual chapters with full model ranges. Name any other faction that has an equivalent to THAT. Sisters of Battle don't have Codices devoted to Major Orders. IG don't have Codices devoted to individual Regiments. Eldar don't have Codices devoted to individual Craftworlds. And on and on. And no, supplements do not count, as the Space Marine Codices are not in any way merely "supplements."

I also play a lot of video games, and the number of 40k-themed video games I've seen come out that are all about Space Marines is so high that I don't even care what genre a video game is anymore, the moment I hear it's about Space Marines I just shut off the ad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, yes, but she can still die, even temporarily. There are things that Chaos has that even the Emperor feared - such as Drach'nyen, the End of Empires. A Daemon Blade powerful enough that the Emperor literally sealed it inside a Custodes and told him to run as far as he could, and buy Humanity as much time as he could by running. I guess it depends if Drach'nyen is powerful enough to devour her soul, but considering it has feasted on the blood of the Emperor, I think our good Saint has a reason to be worried.

So then she could just, like, not be on the part of Cadia with the guy wielding that weapon? The odds that they'd even meet on the battlefield during the fall of Cadia, because an invasion from orbit results in a planet-wide war. Planets are kinda big.

Personally, I think if there's going to be an epic duel in the book (there always is, even when the tau are involved!) it will be Abaddon vs Celestine.

And didn't Celestine still have to roll to come back on like a 3+?

Yes she did, but previously she could just roll again the next turn if she failed in any particular attempt.

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game die you ?

I'm a roleplayer. I'm comfortable with fanfiction.

That is fine many of us 40k players are also RPG player's s but what do you like about the game that is 40k?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You seem to have a lot of issues with 40k and your army are you sure that this is the best game die you ?

I'm a roleplayer. I'm comfortable with fanfiction.

That is fine many of us 40k players are also RPG player's s but what do you like about the game that is 40k?

It is the only game in existence with anything like Sisters of Battle. That's literally the only reason I didn't play something else and drop 40k entirely - there's nothing like Sisters of Battle anywhere else in tabletop gaming. Or in video games for that matter.

 Pouncey wrote:
I really like Draenei in WoW and Sisters of Battle in WH40k.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the "evil guy's punching bag" factions for some reason.

You paid attention to the "plot" and story of Wow after mid TBC? You have guts.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I really like Draenei in WoW and Sisters of Battle in WH40k.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the "evil guy's punching bag" factions for some reason.

You paid attention to the "plot" and story of Wow after mid TBC? You have guts.

I started playing Warcraft games in 2007. You may recognize that as the year that TBC came out.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
*plays a human in wow and space marines in 40k*

A proud Boringville citizen.

I wasn't going to comment, but Stormwind Humans and Space Marines are my most hated factions in their relative franchises, and for the same reason - they hog the limelight too damned much.

Let's be honest now, Varian hogged all of the spotlight. The minute Varian died we have Tyrande and Genn getting attention, though I suppose if you are a Draenei fan it could be a little frustrating that the Legion expansion has such little Draenei presence. The Paladin order hall only has one Draenei! I'm pretty sure the priests only have one as well.

Probably a knee jerk reaction from Blizzard after the steaming turd that was WoD. You can tell Yrel was meant for more than WoD, but it probably got tossed after the fan base reacted negatively to everything WoD. At the very least, Yrel should be in the Paladin order hall over Boros.

As for Space Marines... my poor Ultramarines are soon to be the only loyalist Chapter without any special rules, relics, or warlord traits. Sure we got characters, but let's be honest, Only one of them are usable compared to Vulkan He'stan and the Khan. The real problem for people wanting to see more than space marines at this point is that the Horus Heresy has been selling so well - it sends a pretty clear signal to GW what the people want more of.

Anduin is High King now. They made a borderline pacifist the supreme commander of all Alliance military forces purely because he is the King of Stormwind.

Honestly, as a Draenei fan, given what happened in Warlords, Legion, and the Warcraft movie, I wish we'd actually stayed neglected, because we've been in the spotlight a LOT over the past couple of years, and it has sucked to watch my favorite race die by the hundreds every time we come across them.

The opening scene of the Warcraft movie, showing the Dark Portal from Draenor's end, simultaneously writes the entire Draenei Genocide fiction out of existence by having no Path of Glory and hundreds of surviving Draenei prisoners (they literally killed every Draenei the moment they found them in the game lore, the concept of taking Draenei prisoners was never entertained, as they were literally just trying to exterminate the entire species and the planet was still habitable), while also killing WAY more Draenei on-screen than died to open the Dark Portal in the game canon (only one Draenei was murdered to open the Dark Portal in the game lore, and in the game the Dark Portal is permanently active, it does NOT need "fuel") and also having the one character in the game who tried to stop the murder of Draenei (Durotan) not even view it as being immoral.

Warlords of Draenor had dead and dying Draenei literally everywhere we went, the Draenei army in Siege of Orgrimmar cheered for the Orc Warlord who'd been waging a war to kill them all, and the change of capitol city from Karabor to Ashran was infuriating.

In addition, the Alliance is no longer definable as an Alliance of equals, it is now a Humans-first club and every other race are second-class citizens.

Also, Space Marines have half a dozen Codices dedicated to individual chapters with full model ranges. Name any other faction that has an equivalent to THAT. Sisters of Battle don't have Codices devoted to Major Orders. IG don't have Codices devoted to individual Regiments. Eldar don't have Codices devoted to individual Craftworlds. And on and on. And no, supplements do not count, as the Space Marine Codices are not in any way merely "supplements."

I also play a lot of video games, and the number of 40k-themed video games I've seen come out that are all about Space Marines is so high that I don't even care what genre a video game is anymore, the moment I hear it's about Space Marines I just shut off the ad.

Anduin being High King means nothing, as he has done nothing since the pre launch of Legion. Even his orders to Genn and Roberts went ignored, and the Skyfire blew the hell out of the Forsaken fleet before dying in return. Genn literally robbed godhood from Sylvanas in Stormheim, and by god was it a glorious moment - Anduin literally had nothing to do with it in the only zone where the Alliance and Horde take up screen time.

The only reason any of the Alliance leaders will defer to Stormwind now is because Stormwind is by far the largest nation in population - it provides the most troops, it provides the ships. None of this is really represented well in game, but some of the books go over it in minor detail.

Yes, they did the Draenei's genocide no justice at all, but the Warcraft movie is non-canon to WoW. It was merely glossed over in the movie (disgustingly) undoubtedly due to time constraints and the fact it was supposed to be a retelling of Warcraft Orcs and Humans. I have so many complaints about that movie in general, though - I was ready to walk out if the box had a naaru in it.

As for Space Marines, I think Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be merged into the codex Black Templar style, making Death Company and Deathwing Knights the unique units and roll everything else in as upgrades and chapter tactics. Honor guard with jump packs or command squads with tl plasma guns isn't much of a stretch and would cut down on the book bloat.

Of course, having four different marine releases every year makes them more money than releasing anything else, so...

As for video games, of course you are going to take your most iconic part of the setting to make games out of it. like it or not, Marines are the bread and butter of their setting, and a video game developer will want to make as big a return on investment as possible - and Space Marines are their most popular faction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, yes, but she can still die, even temporarily. There are things that Chaos has that even the Emperor feared - such as Drach'nyen, the End of Empires. A Daemon Blade powerful enough that the Emperor literally sealed it inside a Custodes and told him to run as far as he could, and buy Humanity as much time as he could by running. I guess it depends if Drach'nyen is powerful enough to devour her soul, but considering it has feasted on the blood of the Emperor, I think our good Saint has a reason to be worried.

So then she could just, like, not be on the part of Cadia with the guy wielding that weapon? The odds that they'd even meet on the battlefield during the fall of Cadia, because an invasion from orbit results in a planet-wide war. Planets are kinda big.

Personally, I think if there's going to be an epic duel in the book (there always is, even when the tau are involved!) it will be Abaddon vs Celestine.

And didn't Celestine still have to roll to come back on like a 3+?

Yes she did, but previously she could just roll again the next turn if she failed in any particular attempt.

(Going backwards up)

I vaguely remember that now, but I rarely saw Sisters in my times in third edition. Typically it was Guard, Nids, Marines and Eldar.

Celestine and Abaddon will fight because rule of cool demands it. Besides, Abaddon will want to demoralize his foe, and killing Celestine for a while would do that. Well, it would demoralize the guardsmen, the Sisters would probably just fight harder in the memory of the martyred saint.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Anduin being High King means nothing, as he has done nothing since the pre launch of Legion. Even his orders to Genn and Roberts went ignored, and the Skyfire blew the hell out of the Forsaken fleet before dying in return. Genn literally robbed godhood from Sylvanas in Stormheim, and by god was it a glorious moment - Anduin literally had nothing to do with it in the only zone where the Alliance and Horde take up screen time.

That's like not caring that Vol'jin was the Horde Warchief because he literally only did two things between being promoted and dying.

The only reason any of the Alliance leaders will defer to Stormwind now is because Stormwind is by far the largest nation in population - it provides the most troops, it provides the ships. None of this is really represented well in game, but some of the books go over it in minor detail.

Hey, remember Warcraft 1 and 2, when Stormwind's entire territory was completely overrun by an Orc army bent on genocide?

Yeah, that was less than 40 years ago. You don't get to be any sort of relevant military power after that kind of defeat.

Blizzard just ignores the lore and says that Stormwind's the most powerful. No losses or gains can ever sway that, they write that they are and expect it to be so. As a spectator, I call bs while knowing my opinion will not change it. I simply call bs on things that shouldn't happen but do in fiction.

Yes, they did the Draenei's genocide no justice at all, but the Warcraft movie is non-canon to WoW. It was merely glossed over in the movie (disgustingly) undoubtedly due to time constraints and the fact it was supposed to be a retelling of Warcraft Orcs and Humans. I have so many complaints about that movie in general, though - I was ready to walk out if the box had a naaru in it.

The Warcraft movie is considered 100% canon by Blizzard, actually. It even takes place in the same universe as the game, just in an alternate timeline.

Like AU Draenor.

The Warcraft movie is exactly as canonical as the events of Warlords of Draenor.

Oh, remember when no one had seen anything but the trailer, and we were like, "The feth? Does this movie have time travel? Dalaran's flying!"

As for Space Marines, I think Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be merged into the codex Black Templar style, making Death Company and Deathwing Knights the unique units and roll everything else in as upgrades and chapter tactics. Honor guard with jump packs or command squads with tl plasma guns isn't much of a stretch and would cut down on the book bloat.

I'd be pleased as punch to have one Space Marine book with a crapload of different loadout options for units, then the various models are just cosmetic differences. Like it should be.

Of course, having four different marine releases every year makes them more money than releasing anything else, so...

No gak. That's the PROBLEM.

As for video games, of course you are going to take your most iconic part of the setting to make games out of it. like it or not, Marines are the bread and butter of their setting, and a video game developer will want to make as big a return on investment as possible - and Space Marines are their most popular faction.

Meanwhile my army, which is elite enough they go to war with Space Marine Chapters and fight them to a stalemate, has Dawn of War: Soulstorm, and that's it, that's all.

Celestine and Abaddon will fight because rule of cool demands it. Besides, Abaddon will want to demoralize his foe, and killing Celestine for a while would do that. Well, it would demoralize the guardsmen, the Sisters would probably just fight harder in the memory of the martyred saint.

"Rule of Cool" technically demands NOTHING.

The "Rule of Cool" is simply that the audience will accept more bullgak in the story if it is cool enough. It is not a mandate to provide those bullgak moments.

Were just in time for me to finally, after years in a drawer, trade off my sisters as it's just too late and not enough for me to want to dump the money I had aside for them onto them anymore. Got daemons to do that with instead now.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Anduin being High King means nothing, as he has done nothing since the pre launch of Legion. Even his orders to Genn and Roberts went ignored, and the Skyfire blew the hell out of the Forsaken fleet before dying in return. Genn literally robbed godhood from Sylvanas in Stormheim, and by god was it a glorious moment - Anduin literally had nothing to do with it in the only zone where the Alliance and Horde take up screen time.

That's like not caring that Vol'jin was the Horde Warchief because he literally only did two things between being promoted and dying.

The only reason any of the Alliance leaders will defer to Stormwind now is because Stormwind is by far the largest nation in population - it provides the most troops, it provides the ships. None of this is really represented well in game, but some of the books go over it in minor detail.

Hey, remember Warcraft 1 and 2, when Stormwind's entire territory was completely overrun by an Orc army bent on genocide?

Yeah, that was less than 40 years ago. You don't get to be any sort of relevant military power after that kind of defeat.

Blizzard just ignores the lore and says that Stormwind's the most powerful. No losses or gains can ever sway that, they write that they are and expect it to be so. As a spectator, I call bs while knowing my opinion will not change it. I simply call bs on things that shouldn't happen but do in fiction.

Yes, they did the Draenei's genocide no justice at all, but the Warcraft movie is non-canon to WoW. It was merely glossed over in the movie (disgustingly) undoubtedly due to time constraints and the fact it was supposed to be a retelling of Warcraft Orcs and Humans. I have so many complaints about that movie in general, though - I was ready to walk out if the box had a naaru in it.

The Warcraft movie is considered 100% canon by Blizzard, actually. It even takes place in the same universe as the game, just in an alternate timeline.

Like AU Draenor.

The Warcraft movie is exactly as canonical as the events of Warlords of Draenor.

Oh, remember when no one had seen anything but the trailer, and we were like, "The feth? Does this movie have time travel? Dalaran's flying!"

As for Space Marines, I think Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be merged into the codex Black Templar style, making Death Company and Deathwing Knights the unique units and roll everything else in as upgrades and chapter tactics. Honor guard with jump packs or command squads with tl plasma guns isn't much of a stretch and would cut down on the book bloat.

I'd be pleased as punch to have one Space Marine book with a crapload of different loadout options for units, then the various models are just cosmetic differences. Like it should be.

Of course, having four different marine releases every year makes them more money than releasing anything else, so...

No gak. That's the PROBLEM.

As for video games, of course you are going to take your most iconic part of the setting to make games out of it. like it or not, Marines are the bread and butter of their setting, and a video game developer will want to make as big a return on investment as possible - and Space Marines are their most popular faction.

Meanwhile my army, which is elite enough they go to war with Space Marine Chapters and fight them to a stalemate, has Dawn of War: Soulstorm, and that's it, that's all.

Celestine and Abaddon will fight because rule of cool demands it. Besides, Abaddon will want to demoralize his foe, and killing Celestine for a while would do that. Well, it would demoralize the guardsmen, the Sisters would probably just fight harder in the memory of the martyred saint.

"Rule of Cool" technically demands NOTHING.

The "Rule of Cool" is simply that the audience will accept more bullgak in the story if it is cool enough. It is not a mandate to provide those bullgak moments.

Voljin was the speed bump on the road to Kosaks waifu becoming Warchief. Varian at least got to go out like a boss.

Stormwind has all of the refugees from the northern nations (being the only place to go) which accounts for its numbers. It also sat the Third War out relatively unscathed.

Ironforge got reamed during the second war with only the capital city standing, and Dun Morogh was liberated by the Alliance armies passing through. The gnomes still haven't retaken Gnomergan. The Night Elves have been fighting a constant war for over a decade in universe, and we're never extremely populous to begin with. The Draenei are the refugees of a tiny percentage of the original Eredar population, after most of them were murdered. The Gilneans are the same, to a lesser degree.

The Horde has an even smaller population that isn't really relative to Stormwind's power within the Alliance. The fact that either faction can continue fighting as they have is absolutely bonkers, but out of all of the above, there is in universe reasons why Stormwind, and the Alliance, is on top. Everyone got gakked on in the past 40 years of Warcraft.

If the Warcraft movie is considered canon by Blizzard, but in an alternate universe, that is still effectively the same as it having no canonical implications on the universe that WoW takes place in. Other than another place they could pull a Guldan from, of course, which seems to have been the entire reason they made WoD.

And if the problem with them making more space marines because it makes them more money, you need to convince everyone to stop buying Space Marines so they don't feel the need to make four different types of space marines to pad their bottom line. The fault isn't with GW, it's with people (like myself, I suppose) eating up Space Marine releases. Or with more people not buying into non-Marine releases.

I mean, I own four BAC boxes and a prospero box, buy Ultramarines bits from FW to make my UM stand out from the peasantry, bought enough ASM and Devs to make a Skyhammer loaded with Grav, and more. I'm not even the craziest one I know when it comes to that, either.

Do you really think that Abaddon and Celestine won't face off? I'm actually curious, because she seems like the kind of person that Abaddon would target. And Celestine seems to be the kind of heroic figure that would go straight to where the fighting is thickest, so likely where Abaddon is.

(For the record, I own UM, GKs, IKs, Harliequins, and Daemons for 40k, and Empire for fantasy.)

Edit: forgot my small deathwing, Tau, and my 30 custodes... I might need to see Plastic anonymous.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Voljin was the speed bump on the road to Kosaks waifu becoming Warchief. Varian at least got to go out like a boss.

Stormwind has all of the refugees from the northern nations (being the only place to go) which accounts for its numbers. It also sat the Third War out relatively unscathed.

Lordaeron was wiped out and are now the Forsaken. Dalaran is neutral and has no interest in joining the Alliance. Gilneas walled itself off until Cata and are now represented by the Worgen. Stromgarde left the Alliance of Lordaeron and never joined the new Alliance faction. Kul Tiras has been mostly MIA. Alterac betrayed the Alliance and now form the Syndicate faction.

So, what refugees? Most of the northern nations never wanted any part of the modern Alliance, and the survivors of Lordaeron who fled with Jaina ended up either dying in the mana bomb or being tortured to death in the streets of Orgrimmar after the Horde navy captured the civilian refugee ships.

Ironforge got reamed during the second war with only the capital city standing, and Dun Morogh was liberated by the Alliance armies passing through. The gnomes still haven't retaken Gnomergan. The Night Elves have been fighting a constant war for over a decade in universe, and we're never extremely populous to begin with. The Draenei are the refugees of a tiny percentage of the original Eredar population, after most of them were murdered. The Gilneans are the same, to a lesser degree.

Stormwind City burned to the ground in the First War. The Gnomes retook Gnomeregan during Cataclysm, it remains a dungeon for gameplay purposes only. The Night Elves have many forces that have never been represented adequately in their lore after Warcraft 3, and their civilization spanned the entirety of Kalimdor, which you can't do without a huge population, so no, they don't have low numbers. The Draenei were attacked by Stormwind forces during Cataclysm because humans are too dumb to tell a Draenei from a demon while the Draenei provide care and aid to Stormwind refugees. The Gilneans are some of those "Refugees" you just attributed to Stormwind's strength, because they surrendered their entire country to Sylvanas to save Lorna Crowley's life.

The Horde has an even smaller population that isn't really relative to Stormwind's power within the Alliance. The fact that either faction can continue fighting as they have is absolutely bonkers, but out of all of the above, there is in universe reasons why Stormwind, and the Alliance, is on top. Everyone got gakked on in the past 40 years of Warcraft.

The Horde lost so much of their military during MoP that canonically, the only reason they still exist as a faction is because the Alliance is willing to tolerate their existence as sovereign nations.

And if everyone got crapped on THAT badly, the Legion should never have had an issue conquering Azeroth.

If the Warcraft movie is considered canon by Blizzard, but in an alternate universe, that is still effectively the same as it having no canonical implications on the universe that WoW takes place in. Other than another place they could pull a Guldan from, of course, which seems to have been the entire reason they made WoD.

No, not an alternate universe. An alternate timeline. There's a difference, please look it up.

And if the problem with them making more space marines because it makes them more money, you need to convince everyone to stop buying Space Marines so they don't feel the need to make four different types of space marines to pad their bottom line. The fault isn't with GW, it's with people (like myself, I suppose) eating up Space Marine releases. Or with more people not buying into non-Marine releases.

Yeah, I once suggested someone play Sisters of Battle because the army needs the support. I was told to shut up and get out. Meanwhile the player suggesting Deathwatch wasn't argued with at all. Want a link? It happened on Dakka a day or two ago.

I mean, I own four BAC boxes and a prospero box, buy Ultramarines bits from FW to make my UM stand out from the peasantry, bought enough ASM and Devs to make a Skyhammer loaded with Grav, and more. I'm not even the craziest one I know when it comes to that, either.

Do you really think that Abaddon and Celestine won't face off? I'm actually curious, because she seems like the kind of person that Abaddon would target. And Celestine seems to be the kind of heroic figure that would go straight to where the fighting is thickest, so likely where Abaddon is.

Honestly, I think they'll face off. It'll just be stupid and make no sense when it happens, because there's no reason for Celestine to test her immortality against a weapon that killed the fething EMPEROR.

"Oh look, that's Abaddon, he's got the weapon that killed the Emperor. I'm gonna just go over there, where he's not, because I can literally fly and he cannot. Then I'm gonna kill his buddies who only have boltguns and chainswords."

You... do realize that not all of Lordaeron fell? There are even in game NPCs that reference running from Lordaeron to Stormwind. Ol' Emma is a prominent example for anyone who loiters in Stormwind. Sky Admiral Rogers is a Hillsbrad (thus, Lordaeron) native.

Stromgarde is in the Alliance, with the faction that represents it being the League of Arathor, and its surviving heir (Danath) currently MIA on the broken shore (warrior chain).

The Night Elves make up for their low numbers with the fact that nature literally rises to help them. I'm pretty sure their new found mortality and lack of children is referenced in one of the recent books (Wolfheart, I believe?).

The Gnomes didn't retake Gnomergan beyond the front door, essentially. Thermaplugg detonated another radiation bomb during the Operation: Gnomergan quests.

The Legion is only failing because plot. Or Khadgar, or something. They seem to be more interested in trying to use subterfuge, when, the backstory had built them up as capable of steamrolling Azeroth.

So, as for alternate timeline vs alternate universe... it still has no bearing on WoW proper, so who cares? Lothar is a shrimp when he's supposed to be a mountain, Dalaran flies and Stormwind didn't fall. Being an alternate timeline means it has a lower chance of affecting main WoW! Unless they pull some Caverns of Time malarkey.

And yeah, I saw the thread about the battle forces. Now is a good time to get at least some of the basics for Sisters (well, HQs and Celestine at least).

 Crazyterran wrote:
You... do realize that not all of Lordaeron fell? There are even in game NPCs that reference running from Lordaeron to Stormwind. Ol' Emma is a prominent example for anyone who loiters in Stormwind. Sky Admiral Rogers is a Hillsbrad (thus, Lordaeron) native.

Stromgarde is in the Alliance, with the faction that represents it being the League of Arathor, and its surviving heir (Danath) currently MIA on the broken shore (warrior chain).

Literally the problem is that Blizzard constantly ignores the massive losses humans have taken and continue to take. Their narrative is that Stormwind is the strongest military in the Alliance, and no matter how many of them die, they have continued to stick to that.

The Night Elves make up for their low numbers with the fact that nature literally rises to help them. I'm pretty sure their new found mortality and lack of children is referenced in one of the recent books (Wolfheart, I believe?).

Night Elves don't have low numbers to begin with. Their territory is massive, bigger than Stormwind's. They, in all likelihood, outnumber humans even without their allies.

And regarding Wolfheart, in that book, Ashenvale was retaken by the Night Elves without any help from Stormwind. Meanwhile, years later (so no, not a recent book) in the aftermath of the Siege of Orgrimmar, Varian signs away Azshara, a sacred Night Elf forest, to the Horde, in exchange for the Horde fething withdrawing troops from Ashenvale. They didn't need to do that, the Night Elves already pushed them out of it. And further, withdrawing troops from the victor's territory is a standard part of what the side that lost a war did, so there's no sense in making a concession to have the Horde do it anyways.

The Gnomes didn't retake Gnomergan beyond the front door, essentially. Thermaplugg detonated another radiation bomb during the Operation: Gnomergan quests.

You ever done the Gnomeregan dungeon? Thermaplugg's dead, so are all his cronies and troggs.

The Legion is only failing because plot. Or Khadgar, or something. They seem to be more interested in trying to use subterfuge, when, the backstory had built them up as capable of steamrolling Azeroth.

Likewise, Stormwind is only powerful because plot.

Also, the Legion are idiots. They have summoners capable of summoning other, equal summoners by themselves, and don't realize that with exponents they can have a million-strong force wherever they want within a few minutes. Feth summoning big stuff, just summon unstoppable swarms of weak demons and overwhelm with numbers, since if they die they just go back to the Twisting Nether and can be summoned again almost immediately.

So, as for alternate timeline vs alternate universe... it still has no bearing on WoW proper, so who cares? Lothar is a shrimp when he's supposed to be a mountain, Dalaran flies and Stormwind didn't fall. Being an alternate timeline means it has a lower chance of affecting main WoW! Unless they pull some Caverns of Time malarkey.

Warcraft lore doesn't even have alternate universes whatsoever.

Also, please look into the lore of Warlords of Draenor if you want to see two separate timelines interacting.

And yeah, I saw the thread about the battle forces. Now is a good time to get at least some of the basics for Sisters (well, HQs and Celestine at least).

After 13 years, I wish GW would stop being coy and just be up front with us. Say, "These are the kits coming out for Sisters of Battle over the next year, the months each kit comes out in, how much they cost," and literally every detail possible about the kits themselves. This is not a time for "wait and see" because for us that's been a road to disappointment for literally over a decade.

Orgrimmar is/was the leading force of the Horde, despite the amount of Orcs being in it being whatever they stuffed into a few boats.

I have done the Gnomergan dungeon probably hundreds of times over the last twelve or thirteen years. It doesn't change the fact that there has been no retaking of Gnomergan, considering the Rad Bomb during Operation Gnomergan.

The Gnome starting area now is evacuating leper gnomes (including the PC) from the blast area and curing their leprosy.

Having large territory doesn't mean much in terms of population in WoW - the Orcs control Northern Barrens, Durotar, Southern Barrens post Tides of War, as well as outposts throughout the world. Yet, population that can make it across the great sea in a few boats.

It'd be nice if GW gave us more heads up, but this Cadia thing is only like a week in advance if you take off the week between Xmas and New Years.

guyz, pls, no more wow

 Crazyterran wrote:
Orgrimmar is/was the leading force of the Horde, despite the amount of Orcs being in it being whatever they stuffed into a few boats.

Not anymore. Most of the Orc military died during MoP. The Orcs are now one of the weakest factions on the Horde, because most of them stood with Garrosh and died for him.

Consequently, while Vol'jin was Warchief, Trolls were the face of the Horde. Now Sylvanas is Warchief and the Forsaken are the face of the Horde.

I have done the Gnomergan dungeon probably hundreds of times over the last twelve or thirteen years. It doesn't change the fact that there has been no retaking of Gnomergan, considering the Rad Bomb during Operation Gnomergan.

If we can't even push into Gnomeregan because it's too radioactive, how exactly does the dungeon exist?

The Gnome starting area now is evacuating leper gnomes (including the PC) from the blast area and curing their leprosy.

Yeah, I played it.

Having large territory doesn't mean much in terms of population in WoW - the Orcs control Northern Barrens, Durotar, Southern Barrens post Tides of War, as well as outposts throughout the world. Yet, population that can make it across the great sea in a few boats.

In order to hold a large territory, you need a lot of troops to actually, you know, HOLD it. With, like, soldiers and stuff. So people don't just ignore the "Keep out" signs and do what they want since no one's around to stop them.

It'd be nice if GW gave us more heads up, but this Cadia thing is only like a week in advance if you take off the week between Xmas and New Years.

I'm suggesting that Sisters of Battle in particular be given an exception due to the circumstances of the last two decades of general neglect and mistreatment.