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 Pouncey wrote:

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

CSM players have only now gotten the first steps to becoming more than punching bags for the story. Like I said, we're bloody thankful for that. They've also started to realise that even if only for certain Legions/powers that a unified aesthetic is perfect. Hell, I personally believe the CSM range should have its aesthetic deeply rooted in 30k armour and weapon designs as opposed to just sculpting trims on current Imperial kits.

Dark Eldar players were literally ignored for about a decade - then had almost all their special characters conveniently forgotten about. I think they're allowed to be a bit annoyed.

GSC players can rejoice that 6 editions later people remember they existed and give them rules again.

Legion of the Damned players...are still stuffed - I mean sure, they can run as SM or they can use an odd detachment that takes away half the units they'd probably converted and painted up. But something.

Ork players feel pretty damn neglected on a rules front. Their codex is a hot mess of underperformance to be honest.

If you think SM players have been complaining then stop sipping Traditio's Kool-Aid, thanks.

 Pouncey wrote:

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

But the only armies that can claim worse mistreatment than Sisters of Battle are ones that have been Squatted, so the assertion that all armies are equally as mistreated as Sisters of Battle is erroneous, and it has been such a common statement for people to make that I have a negative reaction to it.

My negativity in this thread is not about the CURRENT situation, it is about the assertion that all armies had it as bad as Sisters.

Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

You, uh... might want to read the title of the thread you're posting in.

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:


Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

You, uh... might want to read the title of the thread you're posting in.

REVENGE

pm713 wrote:New Celestine, new Canoness, TWO new Detachments, new and improved rules or at worst copy and pasted rules with the exception of Celestine who will get rules with the shiny new model.

Hatred just makes me think you're way too invested in this emotionally. Everyone gets the nasty end of the stick by GW.

No one who plays 40K has more reason to be salty than Sisters of Battle players. The reason their army has had a consistent aesthetic since 3rd ed? They haven't gotten anything new since 3rd ed.

Chaos players have had an embarrassment of riches by comparison. They've at least had new physical dexes since then, and a fairly extensive plastic model range that you could mix-and-match with. I quite liked the 4th ed dex. Built a robust little renegade chapter force with it. I didn't take it to tournaments, but it was fun to play in pickup games. Since 6th ed dropped alone, Chaos players have gotten a codex, Black Legion, Khorne Daemonkin, and Traitor's Hate. Sisters players have had the stale digital dex. Right when Chaos players are gleefully celebrating Traitor Legions, Imperial Agents drops. GW could have taken the opportunity to give Sisters the rules update they need so badly. Instead, they get a worse set of rules - no Celestine. Not even a good meta-formation - instead Sisters get a worse version of a CAD. Then the Celestine model gets pulled. Sisters players had every reason to assume they were getting the shaft from GW yet again.

So, any Chaos players who are comparing their woes to what Sisters players have been going through can shut the feth up. GW has at least been trying to give Chaos players something new. They may have gone about it in a clueless, bungling fashion, but Chaos players have at least not been completely ignored by the company. They've been getting new product, and most of the range is in plastic.. Imperial Agents being so bad when Traitor Legions is so good is salt in the wound for Sisters players.

A few Sisters players have voiced their displeasure in Chaos threads? The situation is kind of like having your neighbor celebrate winning the lottery when you've just been told you have terminal cancer. You might then understand how they might be inclined to be wet blankets.

FInally, Sisters players have every reason to be jaded and suspicious. If you beat a dog every day for ten years, then one day pet the dog and give him treats, the dog isn't going to simply accept this as the new normal right away. We've seen the new Celestine and her Seraphim bodyguards, but we have no way of knowing they are anything other than a token effort for the upcoming 13th Black Crusade release, with Celestine intended to get murdered by Abaddon to up the drama. Sisters players are completely justified in being skeptical until we see pictures of new plastic Sisters models. So, stop pointing to the new Celestine and saying "See, it's all going to be better now", because history is on the side of skepticism on this one.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

A few Sisters players have voiced their displeasure in Chaos threads? The situation is kind of like having your neighbor celebrate winning the lottery when you've just been told you have terminal cancer. You might then understand how they might be inclined to be wet blankets.

So how many levels of irony is it for a Dark Angels player to be complaining about CSM players in a Sisters thread?

Did we literally go to a new level from this alone?

So I guess I'm a book 40k nerd? I also love playing sisters.

In like 80% of cases in the books/canon the sisters USUALLY take everyone with them.

Like it's not even a surprise anymore:
-In the black templar novels the sisters hold off to the last person taking a massive ork invasion down.
-In the comics, literally an entire group of them get enslaved to a daemon for 100 years, and even then they resist until their destruction and screw over the daemon prince when the inquisition/saint take it down.
-In the red/black novels they manage hold off the enemy forces so that a single sister can escape with the item the chaos dudes are looking for.

It is their "thing", humanity is CONSTANTLY over-run with no resistance.

What sets the sisters apart is IF you try to take the planet/city/whatever they are on, you are GOING to get a hell of a fight. Like it's not even a troupe, they will literally smash the hell out of anything trying to fight them before they all die.

*Edit: What is hilarious is when I play it's usually the same situation, they go until the last turn and all die, but the person I'm playing is sweating bullets the entire time due to their tenacity. (Those 6++ saves always seem to happen when I most need them lol.)

 koooaei wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:


Try leaving the goalposts alone. Nobody made that assertion. The assertion is that SoB players don't get sympathy because they derail discussion about any other factions model line into a discussion about how "Sisters have been mistreated", exactly what you're doing here.

You, uh... might want to read the title of the thread you're posting in.

REVENGE

Exalted! lol

I am one of those who thinks the Sisters of Battle have been neglected and want to see new models. I am also skeptical about announcements and will believe it when I see it. I know Sisters are not the only range that have been neglected, people have mentioned Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines.

My view is that GW should spend more time doing things for these factions: Sisters, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines the already established factions before going out and creating a new one. They let these groups sit for years without any improvement and instead roll out a new factions like Deathwatch: Mechanicus, Skittari and Imperial Knights. I fear that these new groups will probably be neglected and left to stagnate like the Sisters and instead of supporting and expanding them, GW will instead choose to create yet another newer faction.

 sfshilo wrote:
So I guess I'm a book 40k nerd? I also love playing sisters.

In like 80% of cases in the books/canon the sisters USUALLY take everyone with them.

Like it's not even a surprise anymore:
-In the black templar novels the sisters hold off to the last person taking a massive ork invasion down.
-In the comics, literally an entire group of them get enslaved to a daemon for 100 years, and even then they resist until their destruction and screw over the daemon prince when the inquisition/saint take it down.
-In the red/black novels they manage hold off the enemy forces so that a single sister can escape with the item the chaos dudes are looking for.

It is their "thing", humanity is CONSTANTLY over-run with no resistance.

What sets the sisters apart is IF you try to take the planet/city/whatever they are on, you are GOING to get a hell of a fight. Like it's not even a troupe, they will literally smash the hell out of anything trying to fight them before they all die.

*Edit: What is hilarious is when I play it's usually the same situation, they go until the last turn and all die, but the person I'm playing is sweating bullets the entire time due to their tenacity. (Those 6++ saves always seem to happen when I most need them lol.)

That's awesome. More of that theme of tenacity, please!

Haha oh wow - so SoB fans should be thankful for 13 years of no releases because the result is a consistent model range. Amazing.

The other "argument" seems to be: you guys got four new figures, be happy already! This totally ignores that many SoB fans are really happy about these new figures. But unsurprisingly, they don't cover 13 years of neglect. Or did you seriously think the only thing we could ever want is a resin Canoness plus a plastic special character and her two-figure retinue?

To be clear - the point is not that CSM shouldn't get new models, or that whatever other faction shouldn't get new models. The point is, SoB also need some new models.

On top of that, this thread is not even about the lack of support for Sisters ... it's about the tendency to throw them under the bus in the fluff for the sake of glorifying the precious, precious Space Marines. I am aware that IG and non-IoM factions often get the same treatment. It is no less annoying when the only reason a CSM storyline exists is so that the SM can triumph (or, almost as bad, when some loser Chapter is invented to get smacked so the popular ones remain unscathed).

What I'd really like to see is a story or campaign where the IG or a Space Marine chapter is in a tight spot, and Sisters save the day. Take the upcoming 13thBC, for instance. It would be badass if, say, Creed went down, the Cadian resistance was about to buckle, and Celestine shows up to rally the defenders into a fighting retreat instead of a complete rout. Or, Helbrecht gets ripped apart, but Celestine shows up to rally the Black Templars to a counterattack that buys time for something that slows down Abaddon. Something along those lines would be cool.

I've never said Sisters shouldn't get new models.

But at the same time, I've pointed out that Sisters would benefit greatly from a Grey Knight style release - 1-2 boxes would literally cover more than half their range, considering their aesthetic and the fact that a base Sister in Power Armour is like 90% of your army.

But at the same time a lot of Sisters players want a Dark Eldar scale rework. Take this from a Chaos player - you don't want constant staggered releases otherwise your army will start looking like a hot mess.

Please note - Sisters players have this habit of wandering into 80% of the threads and stirring up a gakfest about their army. End of the day, people are tired of it. Even more so when you realise that all the rumour folks were saying late January-February and you're all flipping tables in December.

Real talk time - Imperial Agents is much like Traitor Legions was - a consolidation of all the digital supplements, campaign supplements and dataslates in a single product.

Do I feel it was perhaps a bit rushed? Maybe. But the Warhammer Live video was stressing the fact next year is 40k's 30th anniversary. So perhaps it makes sense to get those two books out beforehand so they can focus on the planned campaign and storyline progression itself.

Are Space Marines GW's Mary-Sue? Yes.

But let's be real here - they're by far the easiest range to assemble, easiest range to paint and easiest range to play. Their stats aren't complicated, their special rules make them disregard the more complicated aspects of the game and their very image is a key part of 40k's IP. A GW Space Marine is a very, very distinct thing in its appearance and is a sort of brand recognition by itself.

Hell, the Space Marines are integral to 30k as well - you know, that series of books BL are producing that is actually doing rather well.

So yes, they will pamper them. They will preen them. They will heap love and glory on them. If you're honestly surprised by that then I'll be straight up and call you a fething idiot.

It's the same reason Cygnar and Cryx get so much love in Warmachine. It's the same reason that 'feature' ships are artificially better in X-Wing compared to less known, less prominent background ships. It's all to do with brand recognition and their borderline paranoia with regards to their IP.

Yea, verily, ya'll want a series of books where Sisters are not punching bags or sacrificial fodder. That will never happen in 40k.

Black Library on the other hand? Well, there was the Faith and Fire series and that was okay in itself. But the same could be said of the Night Lords and Word Bearers trilogies.

The other reason Sisters aren't being thrust so openly into the limelight? Their theme has very, very strong religious nods to it. They are carrying around their equivalent of crosses and rosary beads. They're literal Nuns with guns. And religion is a mighty uncomfortable subject for a company to throw in the limelight simply because of how people will react - you'd get both sides attacking them over it and that would not be good in the slightest.

Non-Imperial factions regularly get crapped on in 40k's background. Chaos are literally a 10,000 year old punching bag that GW seem to want to wander between genuine malice and THE EVULZ.

I can't recall Orks actually having any sort of meaningful success...ever.

Tyranids are there for the bug hunt trope - because it gets really uncomfortable pushing forward the wholesale slaughter of an intelligent species.

And Eldar? Well, let's be frank. Elves in Space. There's that Trope covered.

At this point in time the rules are also incredibly distant from the fluff as well and, well GW don't exactly care too much about who dies and who doesn't.

I doubt we're going to see an AoS scale nuke of 40k starting with the Sisters. If anything it looks like they're probably going to make the setting go from 5 Minutes to Midnight on the Doomsday Clock to 4 Minutes to Midnight.

Please try to resist making idiotic arguments on behalf of others. No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM. The point is, it's overdone. It's boring. It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction. In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want. So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

 Manchu wrote:
Please try to resist making idiotic arguments on behalf of others. No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM. The point is, it's overdone. It's boring. It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction. In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want. So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

I don't think it's idiotic, I think it's a damn relevant point that hey, guess what, Sisters of Battle, just like the Guard, Orks, CSM, Tau, etc. are just foils to the poster boy that is the Space Marine. Does it suck you guys haven't been getting updated releases? Yeah, but that's typical for any army not Space Marines. Hell, Daemons are only now just getting some new plastic monstrous creatures. Some of those models are editions old as well.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Some of those models are editions old as well.

Oh some of them are? Quelle domage.

Also, I don't think you quite understand the conversation - DarkStarSabre and I both agree - and you seem to agree as well - that it would be dumb to be surprised that GW showers the SM with praise and glory. My point was, no one is surprised by that. But the obvious reasoning doesn't make it any better.

 Manchu wrote:
Please try to resist making idiotic arguments on behalf of others.

Irony is delicious.

No one here is surprised that GW coddles the SM.

Really? What was the point of this entire thread then? If you're not surprised then why are you going on about it? It's been a staple approach they have taken for YEARS. They're not going to stop and go 'Oh feth, the Sisters players at Dakka are upset, we better change our approach to this.' No chance in hell mate.

The point is, it's overdone. It's boring.

Just like every other SoB complaint, rant or derailing on this forum. Huh.

It's poor storytelling. It doesn't even make the SM more interesting or special; it just diminishes the brand of every other faction.

You ever wonder why fairytales all follow the same sort of pattern? Why mythology has a similar approach? Why so many movies, TV series and books have the same boring and poor approach? Because it works. It may not appeal to you. But if it ain't broke they're not going to fix it. It still hooks in new players. It still establishes the SM as the Ultimate Good Guys. It still supports their IP. It's a tried and tested method - the whole damsel in distress approach. Going back thousands of years in human history...it's there. It's a pretty gakky approach, sure, but it's one that works and that is exactly why they do it.

In a word, it's a dumb way to sell models

It's worked up til now.

and GW is just beginning to come out of its decade-long stupidity coma. GW is just beginning to show an interest in what its customers think and want.

Six to one, half a dozen to the other. They're making concessions, I'll give them that. But for all Traitor Legions' good points it still uses the core CSM codex - which is still horrendously overpointed, has inflated unit costs based on a random table and some of the most asinine rules I've ever seen. What its customers wanted here was a new Codex. We got a compromise.

Sisters got a compromise with IA - you got your rules in hardback format. You got them all in one place with a detachment to boot. A compromise, considering that TL and IA were also GW's way of trimming down supplementary and digital materials.

So now is the time to say, YES making new Sisters models is great THANK YOU and NO PLEASE don't undermine the faction by continuing along with this moronic trope of SM needing to rescue or clean up after the Sisters.

Thing is - this happens on a regular basis. Because the Sisters are more often than not the FIRST real line of defense for a planet. The covenant stationed there is the first defense and when they go dark the Imperium sends other forces in. This is an unfortunate part of the way they are established in the setting.

HOWEVER, take note of the artwork shown recently - it shows Celestine at the head of a host. It shows her alongside the Black Templars - a chapter known for aggressively taking the initiative. This does not imply that the Sisters done fethed up and the Imperium is cleaning up. This implies that the Sisters and Templars are the forces being sent in as a counter-attack. As a crusade.

Even the Shield of Baal supplements did the Sisters some good - yeah, they had to be bailed out. But they continued fighting until the very end. Which, as someone said a few posts back is the Sisters' way.

If you're not surprised then why are you going on about it?

Are you really having trouble distinguishing between someone being surprised at X versus someone objecting to X?

Let's just start there, I guess.

I take it back, I do hope Sisters got squatted. It'd be a merciful end rather than them dragging this out for editions to come.

 Manchu wrote:

If you're not surprised then why are you going on about it?

Are you really having trouble distinguishing between someone being surprised at X versus someone objecting to X?

Let's just start there, I guess.

No. I'm failing to see the point of it. You can object to it without turning it into the same old gakfest that these forums see on every other Rumour thread or every other discussion thread from Sisters. But hey, if you did that we wouldn't be here now, would we?

I feel this is a suitable image for exactly what you are doing.

In short, you're venting. That's great. Wonderful. Fantastic. Why are the rest of us being subjected to this again?

Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Why are the rest of us being subjected to this again?

I see. So you just don't understand how a forum works. Reading and posting in a thread are completely voluntary. No one is forcing you to have this discussion. Even when SoB fans complain in "muh Chaos thread" you don't have to read their posts, much less respond to them. You see, this whole time you have chosen to get into the very discussion you claim is such a terrible burden on you. So go now, be free! You were only ever a prisoner in the salt mine of your own building.

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

Someone gets it. Look at the art people. What we've seen so far doesn't say the Sisters need help.

It says that they are the help.

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

But its the End Times of 40k, 40k is going to get Sigmarized!!

/s

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

I don't know how it can be premature when I am referencing considerably over a decade of the same stuff. And keep in mind that we are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia in a book called "the Fall of Cadia."

Let's just refresh our memories about the OP - I did NOT say "GW will feth over Sisters yet again" - I DID say, "please GW do not feth over Sisters yet again."

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Why are the rest of us being subjected to this again?

I see. So you just don't understand how a forum works. Reading and posting in a thread are completely voluntary. No one is forcing you to have this discussion. Even when SoB fans complain in "muh Chaos thread" you don't have to read their posts, much less respond to them. You see, this whole time you have chosen to get into the very discussion you claim is such a terrible burden on you. So go now, be free! You were only ever a prisoner in the salt mine of your own building.

Might I recommend for you then...Tumblr? Or even Facebook? Is Myspace still around? What about Livejournal?

Because, a lot of these threads are posted, in general for discussion. Not for adamant pity parties from the same salty subsection of the forum that less than a few weeks ago was so god damned toxic that one of the guys giving us the leaks had said elsewhere that he was reluctant to give out any information here because of the abuse he had received previously from them.

I mean, hey, you made a guy who spilled the beans - quite reliably and quite on point - say 'Feth Dakka, they're bloody nasty there.'

And someone else has already pointed out that your worries are remarkably premature - you're worrying about your faction being damsels in distress in need of rescue when the imagery we've seen of them so far shows them doing the rescuing with minimal distress.

A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

 Manchu wrote:

TheTuninator wrote:
Worry about Sisters being marginalized this story seems a bit premature when the one bit of art we have on Cadia so far is Celestine blowing a hole in a Greater Demon whilst descending at the head of an entire army of Seraphim.

I don't know how it can be premature when I am referencing considerably over a decade of the same stuff. And keep in mind that we are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia in a book called "the Fall of Cadia."

We also are talking about Sisters' role in defending Cadia(and maybe more, since the warzone/campaign books aren't necessarily relegated to a single planet) as part of a book called "Fall of Cadia", which is the opening volume in a series called "Gathering Storm".

We get it though. Sisters have been marginalized. But realistically, the same damn thing could be said about Wood Elves before The End Times of WHFB...where they ended up playing a relatively significant role.

 Manchu wrote:
A discussion forum is for ... discussion! Believe it or not. Only one of the two of us is objecting to this being a discussion, DarkStarSabre. And it ain't me.

And yet when there is discussion - you immediately go on the defensive. Adorable.

And who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

While you are apparently counting chickens before they hatch and believing your army is in dire straits in a campaign supplement's fluff despite all evidence available at the moment showing otherwise.

Hmmm.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We get it though. Sisters have been marginalized. But realistically, the same damn thing could be said about Wood Elves before The End Times of WHFB...where they ended up playing a relatively significant role.

Kan, I definitely believe that GW can turn a corner on these issues. I think that has already begun! This thread is about hoping GW continue to go in that direction, specifically regarding Sisters of Battle.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
who said I was objecting to the discussion. I am objecting to the same old tired whine that bleeds over into multiple threads on a regular basis.

So you aren't objecting to the discussion, you are simply objecting to the discussion. Got it.