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Huron Blackheart is notable as having defected to Chaos after the Badab War, well after the Heresy happened and the Space Marines were chapter-based rather than legion-based. As a result, his forces ended up looking dramatically different from the bog-standard CSM army, though he didn't get to keep as much cool gear, etc. Back in 2nd edition, Huron could take some limited entries from Codex: Space Marines, though they cost more, and in exchange any Daemons he took cost more points too (so...in practice, you took him if you wanted Speeders/Cyclone Terminators).

I propose the following addition to Huron, mostly as a fluff change rather than as a competitive patch. Let me know if there are any abusive combos that can come from it, or if it seems par for the course:

Renegade of the 41st Millenium: If Huron Blackheart is your Warlord, and your primary detachment is a Combined Arms Detachment, then for each unit of Chaos Space Marines (including Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Bikers, Chaos Terminators, Raptors, Chosen, and Havocs) that you include in his detachment, you may select one unit from Codex: Space Marines, with the following restrictions:
-HQs, relics or special banners may not be selected, nor may Legion of the Damned, Venerable Dreadnoughts or Crusader Squads.
-Any unit that has a Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant upgrade must take that upgrade.
-You may not include any Grav weapons.
-Any such unit taken loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and counts as having no Chapter Tactics.

Any such units taken count as having Faction: Chaos Space Marines, and any and all Characters have the Champion of Chaos special rule.

Would folks be cool with a houserule like this?

Why deny grav? I mean, it's an ancient technology, right? So fluff wise... everyone should have it.

It could be high maintenance like land speeders.

I think grav just doesn't feel ancient because it's pretty new to the game in real life. That and chaos tends to rely more on daemonifying stuff to make it better, rather than relying on better technology.

Also, these houserules seem fine. Could definitely do with a few drawbacks though. Off the top of my head, no squad should be allowed veterans of the long war. Despite Huron having it, I think this is because of his absolute hatred of the imperium for melting half of his body off, rather than him being an actual vet of the long war.

I'd also not take any units from the space marine codex that have an equivalent in the chaos codex because:

1. It'll be a mess to look at/organise. I think it's a bit redundant to have access to both types of basic marines, both types of Rhinos, both types of sorcerors, etc.
2. It makes more sense to me that Huron has access to a normal chaos marine squad and not a tactical squad. Or just a hybrid of the two, like say the basic chaos troops with combat tactics but they can't take veterans (Or marks if taking them out fits the fluff. I don't think it does though, but I don't know much about the Red Corsairs. They seem to dabble a good bit with chaos, but don't seem to have the same hold as one of the big legions would.).

I think a nice way to approach this would be to take units that have absolutely no equivalent in the chaos codex (Scouts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, etc) and put them into the chaos codex, while also limiting things that feel a bit too heretical (Perhaps 0-1 possessed? Perhaps we have assault marines without ATSKNF instead of Raptors?) for the Tyrants legion. I'd also reduce the points cost by one or two points to reflect that the marines are likely the weaker minded traitors, otherwise they wouldn't have defected. Perhaps give them no access to veterans, MAYBE reduce their leadership by one to reflect that the Red Corsairs are populated almost entirely by turncoats. This would let you field more troops, which kinda reflects the fact that the Red Corsairs are a massive army. I'd aso remove the chaplain entirely, since the Dark Apostle is an equivalent.

Possible gamebreaking things to look out for would be stuff like putting daemonic possession on certain vehicles or space marines HQ's taking chaos wargear. That could potentially get messy quite quickly.

In any case, this sounds like an interesting project. Good luck with it and merry Christmas!

I think this more is something for a supplement to cover. After all, the Red Corsairs and Crimson Slaughter should have a play style that's somewhere in the middle without taking the best of both worlds to make them feel less great.

This is basically what the Tyrant's Legion list in IA9-10 is, but having had two Space Marine Codexes come out since I will acknowledge it needs an update.

The Tyrant's Legion had the 5e-book Ultramarine Chapter Tactics (may choose to fail Morale tests if necessary) and The Tyrant's Due (+1 to cover saves received because of intervening Auxilia units, but the Auxilia then take d3 wounds), an integrated set of Auxilia units (somewhere between Guard and Cultists), and the Centurion (functionally a Commissar for Auxilia units that was an Astral Claws Space Marine junior officer). Their Chapter Tactics (in the Badab 6e update) give Stubborn, may not choose to fail Morale tests, and Skilled Rider to Bikes/Scout to Land Speeders.

So depending on whether you're trying to represent the Astral Claws before, during, just after, or long after the Badab War you might want to emphasize different elements. Long after they've probably lost or broken a lot of the loyalist tools and haven't been able to hold onto as many followers and just using the CSM book might be the right approach, but if you're going for during or just after I'd suggest hacking on the Tyrant's Legion list rather than mixing current Marines and current CSM.

a fat guy wrote:
I think grav just doesn't feel ancient because it's pretty new to the game in real life. That and chaos tends to rely more on daemonifying stuff to make it better, rather than relying on better technology.

Grav weaponry was available in Rogue Trader and 2E. I think it vanished during 3rd.

 Stormonu wrote:

a fat guy wrote:
I think grav just doesn't feel ancient because it's pretty new to the game in real life. That and chaos tends to rely more on daemonifying stuff to make it better, rather than relying on better technology.

Grav weaponry was available in Rogue Trader and 2E. I think it vanished during 3rd.

2e-grav worked like the current 30k graviton guns, they were no-AP blasts that inhibited movement. In 30k the current 40k grav-guns are experimental tech accessible to the Mechanicum only (and maybe the Iron Hands, but I'll have to double-check).

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Huron Blackheart is notable as having defected to Chaos after the Badab War, well after the Heresy happened and the Space Marines were chapter-based rather than legion-based. As a result, his forces ended up looking dramatically different from the bog-standard CSM army, though he didn't get to keep as much cool gear, etc. Back in 2nd edition, Huron could take some limited entries from Codex: Space Marines, though they cost more, and in exchange any Daemons he took cost more points too (so...in practice, you took him if you wanted Speeders/Cyclone Terminators).

I propose the following addition to Huron, mostly as a fluff change rather than as a competitive patch. Let me know if there are any abusive combos that can come from it, or if it seems par for the course:

Renegade of the 41st Millenium: If Huron Blackheart is your Warlord, and your primary detachment is a Combined Arms Detachment, then for each unit of Chaos Space Marines (including Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Bikers, Chaos Terminators, Raptors, Chosen, and Havocs) that you include in his detachment, you may select one unit from Codex: Space Marines, with the following restrictions:
-HQs, relics or special banners may not be selected, nor may Legion of the Damned, Venerable Dreadnoughts or Crusader Squads.
-Any unit that has a Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant upgrade must take that upgrade.
-You may not include any Grav weapons.
-Any such unit taken loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and counts as having no Chapter Tactics.

Any such units taken count as having Faction: Chaos Space Marines, and any and all Characters have the Champion of Chaos special rule.

Would folks be cool with a houserule like this?

I would really like chaos legions and renegades to be split into two different supplements. Therefore I support this cause.