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I've just read Angels of Caliban and something is under my skin.

I'd appreciate it if someone could answer this question and/or refer me to a source book for reading.

How did Sanguinius reach Terra in time to intercept Horus, but Guilliman, Lion, and Russ do not?

I've just read Angels of Caliban which is why this is particularly nagging to me...

The Lion, Sanguinius, and Guilliman are all on Macragge after the Betrayal at Calth when the following happens:



So why does Sanguinius reach Terra first when Guilliman and Lion are all standing in the room at the same time that they learn the above?

Also, why does Lion El'Jonson reach Terra after Leman Russ? I've read on the Wiki that they were being intercepted by daemons and warp storms, but where is this written about? Is there any Heresy book or sourcebook that deals specifically with the journey of these 4 primarchs to Terra during the warp storms?

It may be because it falls under the 'script called for it' category. Something dramatic needed to happen and Sanguinus was the one chosen to be killed off

I don't think that part has been written yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And it wouldn't be in any old fluff, as the unremembered empire is all new)

I Haven't read all the HH books yet, but it is hinted at that Roboute doesn't attempt to, but instead fortifies Maccrage - The reasoning behind this I suspect is that he knows that whoever 'wins' at terra will be in no position to secure the Imperium. By not getting involved in the fight for terra, the Ultramarines will be the only force in the Galaxy capable of securing it.

The Dark Angels were playing hide and seek with the Night Lords. They also have received 'orders' from the Ultramarines to go to Ultramar and not Terra, or though I don't know if they follow those orders.

Russ had been sent with his entire legion to burn prospero, so I don't know what state his legion was in with regards to making a dash to Terra - I believe he was on route when the Emperor and Horus fought, which is why the Chaos Legions had to flee, or be crushed.

Given the distance I don't think the Ultramarines could have gotten there in time anyway. The Dark Angels were also out of position, so I think the wolves were the only ones with any real chance of making it.

sanguinus is red - he goes fasta

icn1982 wrote:
I Haven't read all the HH books yet, but it is hinted at that Roboute doesn't attempt to, but instead fortifies Maccrage - The reasoning behind this I suspect is that he knows that whoever 'wins' at terra will be in no position to secure the Imperium. By not getting involved in the fight for terra, the Ultramarines will be the only force in the Galaxy capable of securing it.

The Dark Angels were playing hide and seek with the Night Lords. They also have received 'orders' from the Ultramarines to go to Ultramar and not Terra, or though I don't know if they follow those orders.

Russ had been sent with his entire legion to burn prospero, so I don't know what state his legion was in with regards to making a dash to Terra - I believe he was on route when the Emperor and Horus fought, which is why the Chaos Legions had to flee, or be crushed.

Given the distance I don't think the Ultramarines could have gotten there in time anyway. The Dark Angels were also out of position, so I think the wolves were the only ones with any real chance of making it.

At the time the spoiler I quoted above from Angels of Caliban,



Three primarchs and three nearly full legions - the full Blood Angels legion, the full Ultramarines legion, large part of the Dark Angels legion, stragglers of the White Scars, survivors from Isstvan V - all suddenly realizing that the true Emperor is alive.

And somehow only Sanguinius gets to Terra in time.
If they all left immediately, together, they would have had Nth greater chance of reaching Terra and saving the Emperor.

So really what I'm asking is - since all three primarchs were in exactly the same place when they realized the Emperor was alive - all standing in the exact same room in fact - why didn't they all go - together - to Terra?
Why the hell wouldn't they go that instant?

Also, is there any source material on Guilliman, Sanguinius and Lion's journey to Terra?

I think that's because Lion slowed down. For this reason he's even accused of waiting to see wether the Imperium had a chance to turn the tide or not before committing onself on any side in the war. But if he's no heretic nobody knows why he didn't come to the Emperor's help.

That's just old memories i have so you'd better check my words up but that might answer your question as far as Lion is concerned.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I think that's because Lion slowed down. For this reason he's even accused of waiting to see wether the Imperium had a chance to turn the tide or not before committing onself on any side in the war. But if he's no heretic nobody knows why he didn't come to the Emperor's help.

That's just old memories i have so you'd better check my words up but that might answer your question as far as Lion is concerned.

There's nothing in Angels of Caliban that shows he believes this.

- Well it doesn't mean the Dark Angle warp engine technology is immediately able to be replicated and installed on the fleets of 2 other whole legions, or even parts of legions.

- There is also the fact that the Lion discovers the treachery of his own legion and has to go home, get into a massive brawl, destroy his home world, and become sleeping beauty.

- We don't yet know that the remaining World Eaters and Word Bearers that are running amok in the Maccrage system aren't going to pull some other card out of their sleeve that isn't going to somehow delay the ultramarines. Keep in mind the Ultramarines are extremely crippled from the Calth Betrayal. They can barely defend their own system, and even then they can only defend the core worlds. They're still trying to get control. We also know that there are Night Lords and Plague Marines in the system too along with Eldar and Dark Eldar raids.

Russ was on route with if correct thousands sons never truly put up a orbital war like they could.

So he had a rather intact fleet but yes still a long way off.
So Space Wolves even if racing would of needed time.

Also chaos gods could of slowed down warp to buy Horus time?
Kind of just made them take longer to give him his moment of destiny.

Well the whole Imperium Secundus thing was a stupid ass pull created to artificially lengthen the series, so I imagine an equally stupid ass pull will be used to get the Blood Angels to Terra while the other Legions just hang out.

I can picture it now. We're at the border of the Storm and some White Scar Librarian says there's some ancient ritual he knows that he never bothered to mention until now that'll make a hole.
They do the ritual and then an army of perpetuals working for the Cabal show up and they're all growling like wet leopards.

Guilliman says he'll hold them off, and the Lion and Sangunius set off all teary eyed. Sangunius makes it through but as the Lion is crossing the hole collapses and tchuchula or whatever is forced to teleport them to some random location.

Then we find out that by enacting the ritual to open a hole in the storm they inadvertently caused the Necrons to begin awakening and also proto-Tau are created somehow.

 koooaei wrote:
sanguinus is red - he goes fasta

This

You're asking how, after watching A New Hope, how a farm boy like Luke Skywalker is going to beat the Emperor. Just wait and it'll be explained.

Also, the wiki is going to be a bad source for you, as it pulls in info from every single source, whether it was released last week or 20 years ago and treats it all equally. The HH series is a retelling. It is not a one to one recitation of what was written before. Things are going to be different.

jareddm wrote:
You're asking how, after watching A New Hope, how a farm boy like Luke Skywalker is going to beat the Emperor. Just wait and it'll be explained.

Also, the wiki is going to be a bad source for you, as it pulls in info from every single source, whether it was released last week or 20 years ago and treats it all equally. The HH series is a retelling. It is not a one to one recitation of what was written before. Things are going to be different.

The wiki isn't a bad source for using old fluff, it's a bad source because people publish outright lies on it.

icn1982 wrote:
Given the distance I don't think the Ultramarines could have gotten there in time anyway. The Dark Angels were also out of position, so I think the wolves were the only ones with any real chance of making it.

Pretty sure DA and Wolves were heading together. It was arrival of those 2 legions that forced Horus for final gambit. And it was Russ & Lion's disagreement on the pace they had went that caused friction between the two which led to clash of swords.

tneva82 wrote:

icn1982 wrote:
Given the distance I don't think the Ultramarines could have gotten there in time anyway. The Dark Angels were also out of position, so I think the wolves were the only ones with any real chance of making it.

Pretty sure DA and Wolves were heading together. It was arrival of those 2 legions that forced Horus for final gambit. And it was Russ & Lion's disagreement on the pace they had went that caused friction between the two which led to clash of swords.

Do you know where you read about this between the Lion and Russ?

 Orblivion wrote:

jareddm wrote:
You're asking how, after watching A New Hope, how a farm boy like Luke Skywalker is going to beat the Emperor. Just wait and it'll be explained.

Also, the wiki is going to be a bad source for you, as it pulls in info from every single source, whether it was released last week or 20 years ago and treats it all equally. The HH series is a retelling. It is not a one to one recitation of what was written before. Things are going to be different.

The wiki isn't a bad source for using old fluff, it's a bad source because people publish outright lies on it.

The point is that the series is not bound by what came before, and so trying to use older lore under the assumption that it is what will happen in the series will only lead to everyone getting mad over an incorrect assumption.

This is going to be interesting to see how they pull this off.

In regards to Tuchulcha it does not provide instant travel but “flattens” the warp, calming it and allowing objects to move between the material universe and the warp without breaking the barrier that separates them. It pretty much creates a bubble or tunnel of passive warp in which you can travel but it will still take time to get to your destination.

It always irritates me when it is assumed that just because something or someone can do something amazing that it is now all powerful and can there for do anything. Tuchulcha is powerful but not that powerful, it might be able to calm the warp but the ruin storm is still impassable at this moment. Transporting a person from location to location might be a very simple and quick thing to do but that’s very different to transporting a large fleet let alone three. Also there is no way to replicate Tuchulcha so it can be used in other fleets; it is along with its other two pieces literally one of a kind.

For the Lion according to ADB when asked about the Russ and Lion road trip he mentioned that it was still in the plans for them to team up and head towards Terra, this is backed up by the events in the “Leman Russ” story but remember don’t assume that this is still true as at this point the older fluff is very likely to be changed and there is no guaranty that what we used to consider cannon will continue to remain so.

Laurie J Goulding has mentioned that he knows what is going to happen next to the Lion, so we know his story isn’t over yet. He won’t be heading to Caliban just yet as that only happens after the Heresy but I suspect that the Death guard are going to be somehow involved. My personal head cannon is that Tuchulcha is somehow responsible for the Death guards prolonged stay in the warp which will lead to Mortarion finally embracing Nurgle.

It has been mentioned that the ruin storm blocking their way to terra is slowly fading and pathways are beginning to appear. So I suspect that somewhere down the line all three Primarchs are going to have to make a choice which will separate them. Both the Lion and especially Sanguinius are going to won’t to get to Terra as soon as possible but I can see Guilliman wanting to get all the forces currently stationed on Macragge ready before he heads out which may lead him to fall behind the other two. Somehow the Lion and Sanguinius are going to get separated during their travels with the Lion hopefully teaming up with Russ far away from terra (I smell Tuchulcha shenanigans ) and Sanguinius according to the Heresy time line is going to be going through the “passage of the Angel of death” to get to Terra in time.

But at this point I’m just waiting for the Lion to punch Guilliman which was hinted at during the run up the "Unremembered Empire" .

Remember that the original story for the Battle of Terra was written in the eighties and was just an overview, all this detail is new. In the original story The Fists and BAngels were already entrenched on Terra when Horus arrived and the Scars arrived right after and broke through the fighting to join up with them, while the Wolves, DAngels and Ultras were inbound and the only timeline given was that Horus was feeling pressed for time as the siege ground on over days and weeks. This whole meetup at Macragge is totally new and the authors will probably shake out the travel plans in future books to explain why only the BAngels made it to Terra early.

 jhe90 wrote:
Russ was on route with if correct thousands sons never truly put up a orbital war like they could.

So he had a rather intact fleet but yes still a long way off.
So Space Wolves even if racing would of needed time.

Also chaos gods could of slowed down warp to buy Horus time?
Kind of just made them take longer to give him his moment of destiny.

Space Wolves got delayed by Alpha Legion, Dark Angels got delayed rescuing the Wolves from the Alpha Legion.

 jhe90 wrote:
Russ was on route with if correct thousands sons never truly put up a orbital war like they could.

So he had a rather intact fleet but yes still a long way off.
So Space Wolves even if racing would of needed time.

Also chaos gods could of slowed down warp to buy Horus time?
Kind of just made them take longer to give him his moment of destiny.

It's mentioned in wrath of magnus that he purposely went around weakening prospero's defenses as the space wolves made their way there. He saw it as Tzeentch's plan and wanted to screw him over by not fighting as he would in the plan but instead doing nothing and allowing the wolves to attack. Eventually he got screwed over again but it was because he was able to see Tzeentch's plan a bit and mess with it that he was made a daemon primarch after being screwed over by Tzeentch once more.

Because Red Bull gives you wings, or the Emp does.

 Exergy wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
sanguinus is red - he goes fasta

This

It clearly bears repeating, since the thread is ongoing.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Russ was on route with if correct thousands sons never truly put up a orbital war like they could.

So he had a rather intact fleet but yes still a long way off.
So Space Wolves even if racing would of needed time.

Also chaos gods could of slowed down warp to buy Horus time?
Kind of just made them take longer to give him his moment of destiny.

Space Wolves got delayed by Alpha Legion, Dark Angels got delayed rescuing the Wolves from the Alpha Legion.

Well from this thread, it is clear that there are too many books with interacting and overlapping stories. Not to mention that the timeline is hard to interpret.

In the last White Scars book, they were able to reach Terra and be greeted by Russ. So both the Scars and Wolves were present around Terra before Horus arrived. That said the Wolves were heavily beaten up by the Thousand Sons on the ground and the Alpha Legion in the void. So from what I can see, the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Ultrasmerfs are blocked from reaching Terra due to the storms with the Ultras being ambivalent about leaving at all. While the Fists, Scars and Wolves are around Terra trying to counter the mayhem caused by the Alpha Legion. We are still waiting to hear what happens to the both of the Angels as far as I know. I also dont think we have any clear word on Corax, or what the other drop site surviving legions are up too right now really. Have I missed anything? Please help me fill the gaps.