Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They already did return of Primarch Horus.

He was all like, "Yo, Abby! You were always my favoured son, so good to see you thriving and surviving... AAAARGGH what are you doing!?"

Vulcan made a brief return too *did he ever leave?*

There have been throw away mentions in the fluff of impossibly mighty warriors occasionally emerging and disappearing (I think these are implied to be temporary primarch returns too).

I think Primarch returns can happen, provided the returns are low key / brief.

If a primarch was to return and attempt to politic the High Lords of Terra, then that might have consequences. Could be something interesting to fit into the 30-40k void. I can very much imagine records of such an event to be written out of history by ]I[, administratum or HLOT.

Write factions the way they're meant to be rather than idiots.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I don't think I'm alone in this, but I don't really want significant story progression on the major arcs. The setting of 40k is so close to doomsday now that too much movement either way would either logically lead to an End Times debacle, or require significant retconning to keep it stable. I don't think it's impossible, but it is very difficult.

A small point to raise.

While i totally agree with you regarding the whole End Times issue, it seems economics does not. From what i gather, Age of Sigmar isn't costing GW cash, it is in fact selling better than WHFB did since Storm of Chaos.

Its a bitter pill for someone like me to swallow, but we must always face truth.

If we look at this whole forum, the number of threads that pop up about the Horus Heresy, the Emperor, and the debates that crop up about the Primarchs.... its kind of obvious what a large segment of the fanbase wants to see.

GW is a in a kind of weird "trap," that tends to afflict many popular tabletop game series/fiction/novels/comics.

1.) So they Promote Lore so that People become attached to buying their models (Because at the end of the day, its about selling models)

2.) So Lore gets formed, people attach themselves to various armies and factions...and wouldn't you know... they want more Lore.

3.) Its Always Easier going Backward than Forward. So we can expect lots of stories popping up between the End of 30K to Present 40K.

And that does appeal to the fanbase for a time. Heck, can even crank out a boardgame or two to cover some obscure aspect of the 40K universe as well.

But we eventually arrive back at the Present Time.....and face the same exact problem -> How to deal with the Metaplot.

So the strategies i've seen implemented thus far:

a.) Place Priority on the Metaplot - this was the Star Wars Expanded Universe model. I'm not a tremendous SW fan, but i know a few, and the amount of time/effort/fact-checking that went into making the Star Wars Expanded Universe internally coherent is.....absolutely amazing. If i understand this correctly, once the internal"canon police" arm of Lucas Arts was fully formed - every single video game, novel, comic book, etc made sense within the overall Continuity. And they kept pushing the Timeline forward for a very very very long time....until Disney bought them out.

However, that level of discipline and long-term planning isn't something GW can muster.... It probably doesn't have the resources for that anyway.

b.) Hit the Reset Button - I mean EndTime/Age of Sigmar does fulfill this. Take Old Themes, re-jig the whole world using those themes, and dress them all up in different clothes. The strategy does work.

c.) Jump the Shark - Ever watch a TV show that just kept getting renewed, season after season, even after the writers were out of ideas? Or a Movie Franchise that just wouldn't die? How about a Comic book series where the hero has probably saved the world a few times over, died, come back to life, got married, had kids, got divorced, ended the world,...and oh wait that was all a Dream so let's start all over again?

Whether we are speaking about 40K or a Spanish Telenovela, every work of fiction is susceptible to this. I think i read some place that anything with Dream Sequences, Magic (where there was none previously), or Time Travel (where there was none previously) usually points to writers pawing at the bottom of the barrel.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally i think the way out for GW is to focus on other things.....aside from Primarchs, the Emperor, etc. There's a whole universe out there to cover and explore and they could really do soooo much...

....the Problem of course is that Primarchs, the Emperor, and Space Marines sell.

I've never seen any hard data on this, but I do have to wonder if "Space Marines" as a category sells better than any of the other factions?

Very sound points, but they don't make me feel any better!

I remember seeing that Space Marines (probably loyalists at that) definitely sell disproportionately more than the other factions. It's probably a bit of a vicious circle, with the most popular faction getting more releases so selling even more.

I definitely agree with the conundrum they have with continuing the profitability of 40k. The only solace I can find is that I think 40k is in a better financial position than Fantasy was, and hopefully won't need the End Times hard reset to keep it in the black.

I agree that there's so much more they can explore with the 40k universe. Loads of stuff left untouched. Hopefully with the recent prevalence of small diverse army books like Harlies, Skitarii and GS Cults that's the direction they're going in.

I haven't seen any dream-sequences, newfound magical powers or time travel (that wasn't already there!) so that bodes well

However, retconning and re-doing the 13th Black Crusade makes me a little nervous...

I have a lot so im going to bullet point it:


IoM:
-DA chase cypher to terra
-Chypher unplugs the big E and he dies
-Chaos pour out of the eye and over throw Cadia
-Demons start to flood into the palace.
-DA and Imperial fist try to fight them off, cypher charges in and starts hacking and shooting
-The big E comes out of the portal and closes it.
-Cypher ends up being Zaharial (Big suprise) and the Big E unlocks his full power and he becomes the new astronomicon on the golden thrown.
-The big E bitch slaps humanity back into shape, recalls all the legions and wakes up the sleeping/wounded primarchs first to return, Russ, Lion, Rawbutt
-Starts second great crusade to find the missing primarchs
-technology gets back on track
-massive imperial losses outside of the core systems.
-SM legions fully restored.


Eldar:
-Shaggorath pulls his gotcha on slennesh
-All the eldar souls are freed
-Turns out eldrad was wrong about messing up the ritual, and got to dramatic, big surprise there
-Shaggorath was just dicking with him, and they still managed to summon the eldar god of death
-Slanesh is killed off
-Eldar of all factions have a big pow wow/intervention and everything gets rolled into one faction, eldar empire

Tau:
They ended up making bigger guns

Orks:
-Grok and mork stopped jerking around and started a new WAHHH
-empower a new big bad ass warboss

Necron:
-All this warp tom foolery woke them up
-C'tan's come back and raise their armys
-they start their crusade to kill all life

Nids:
-Main hive fleets finally start to breech the galaxy
-Nom even more
-Finally get a new codex

Chaos:
-Kill everything
-Abadon gets arms and manages to get past the first hurdel

So we have a restored Eldar empire
IoM is back on track with tech
Tau are still dicks
Nids are a lot more scary
Chaos is a threat not a mustache twirling villan
Necrons are relevent
Orks just wanna loot
and the story finally advances with out really going anywhere at the same time.

I'm still thinking a year long end times event that kills off all the big players and start a new millennium with all the various empires picking up the pieces.

I have no problem with the Emp remaining on the throne, as I don't believe their are any prophecies of him returning, so he can remain as a figure head of sorts.

But I don't think they should be bringing back the Primarchs (yes, I know it looks as if they are), unless it is to kill them off properly. I think that 30k should be supported with as much fluff as possible (a book every quarter on a major engagement, perhaps starting during the Great Crusade), Do something similar for the post Heresy period and allow players to also play games set in the new millennium. Leave the fluff alone for the new millennium and have it player driven.

With the new millennium, have the players write in their battles, the ones that grab the attention of the devs can then be incorporated into the lore in an annual release, advance the new millennium in real time (1 year in the real world = 1 year in game time).

Also, have special characters for their fluff, not their abilities - So if they want to release a new character (new must have shiny) then have it a character you could create using the standard army list, I would also suggest using players characters to do this from the above mentioned battle reports. If they really need to add something beyond a beautiful miniature to encourage players to buy the model, then reduce the points cost by 5% or so for taking it 'as is.' Just enough so it becomes an 'I could make a slightly better build from the base list, but that slightly reduced cost is tempting'

icn1982 wrote:
I'm still thinking a year long end times event that kills off all the big players and start a new millennium with all the various empires picking up the pieces.

I have no problem with the Emp remaining on the throne, as I don't believe their are any prophecies of him returning, so he can remain as a figure head of sorts.

But I don't think they should be bringing back the Primarchs (yes, I know it looks as if they are), unless it is to kill them off properly. I think that 30k should be supported with as much fluff as possible (a book every quarter on a major engagement, perhaps starting during the Great Crusade), Do something similar for the post Heresy period and allow players to also play games set in the new millennium. Leave the fluff alone for the new millennium and have it player driven.

With the new millennium, have the players write in their battles, the ones that grab the attention of the devs can then be incorporated into the lore in an annual release, advance the new millennium in real time (1 year in the real world = 1 year in game time).

Also, have special characters for their fluff, not their abilities - So if they want to release a new character (new must have shiny) then have it a character you could create using the standard army list, I would also suggest using players characters to do this from the above mentioned battle reports. If they really need to add something beyond a beautiful miniature to encourage players to buy the model, then reduce the points cost by 5% or so for taking it 'as is.' Just enough so it becomes an 'I could make a slightly better build from the base list, but that slightly reduced cost is tempting'

letting players write the history in the way you suggest would be a legal minefield. no legal advisory team in their right mind would allow it. doubly so letting people create special characters as some sort of community thing. because suddenly you have a sticky situation where ownership is.. unsure.

I'd steal a page from Marvel and do an Age of Apocalypse type story. Someone, somewhere messes with the time stream or other reality bending tech and overwrites the 40k universe like they overwrote the Marvel one- at least temporarily. Perhaps for better, perhaps for worse (somehow). Personally I've always loved alternate universe stories.

Just as 30k is essentially the same setting in a different period, with different toys and backdrop, so too could this be. it could be the Imperium 10,000 years after the HH, but Horus won. Or it could be an alternate timeline where the Eldar mostly averted the Fall and are a true galactic power. Everyone being caught in a Necron civil war as thousands of tomb worlds spring to life intent of murdering each other. Imagine a setting where the galaxy as a whole revolted against the Great Crusade and every legion of marines was wiped out- except the IIth and XIth. Almost anything could be done if you set it up in such a way that the status quo returns in a year or so. People would have another alternate setting to play like 30k, FW could release new limited edition kits from alternate surviving/found STCs and you could even have a global tournament to determine who undoes the mess and sets things back on their true, grim dark rails. Perhaps the winning faction gets a piece of alt-tech brought through to the main setting.

Fact is the status quo is God in 40k. GW will never risk changing it forever, but they might risk changing it for a year. Might.

My thought is the current IoM is too monolithic to be anything other than a blunt instrument, and because of that any advancement of the story line must show it in a diminished state. The current state of the IoM limits the stories that can be told about the IoM, for instance it's hard to pitch the IoM as an underdog, because even if the current army falls the IoM always has more. It's hard to pitch them as clever strategist when they rely on wearing down enemies thru sheer numbers, or virus bombing planets.

At its most basic science fiction is a literature of competence porn, a meritocracy where the clever and the competent can overcome monolithic/all powerful foes like the IoM. In many ways the eldar fit the tropes of sci-fi much better, under dogs on the edge of extinction who survive on wits and technological puissance alone, made ultimately alien and largely unrelatable by the fact the eldar are all basically part of one weird cult or another, but I digress. I get that the grim dark stands in opposition to that kind of thinking, nothing you do matters, and progress is making things decay at a slightly less awful rate. Ultimately though that leads to nihilism and ennui, if nothing schafer and his last chancers did ultimately matters why read about them.

If 40k is going to be a setting of exciting battle, there have to be stakes involved in the form of an opportunity to make the world better or worse thru your actions. For that to happen the IoM must have constraints, must have rivals, must be able to suffer lasting defeat. I think GW is on the right track with the fall of cadia, for 10,000 years cadia has maintained a costly status quo, and with this book that ends, chaos is unshackled, released upon the galaxy under a warmaster who has spent millenia planning and manipulating the IoM to its weakest point. He is joined by the daemon primarchs, some of the most powerful entities to have ever existed, beings who lead mankind to unprecedented heights in the great crusade, and then brought them low during the heresy.

BrianDavion wrote:

icn1982 wrote:
I'm still thinking a year long end times event that kills off all the big players and start a new millennium with all the various empires picking up the pieces.

I have no problem with the Emp remaining on the throne, as I don't believe their are any prophecies of him returning, so he can remain as a figure head of sorts.

But I don't think they should be bringing back the Primarchs (yes, I know it looks as if they are), unless it is to kill them off properly. I think that 30k should be supported with as much fluff as possible (a book every quarter on a major engagement, perhaps starting during the Great Crusade), Do something similar for the post Heresy period and allow players to also play games set in the new millennium. Leave the fluff alone for the new millennium and have it player driven.

With the new millennium, have the players write in their battles, the ones that grab the attention of the devs can then be incorporated into the lore in an annual release, advance the new millennium in real time (1 year in the real world = 1 year in game time).

Also, have special characters for their fluff, not their abilities - So if they want to release a new character (new must have shiny) then have it a character you could create using the standard army list, I would also suggest using players characters to do this from the above mentioned battle reports. If they really need to add something beyond a beautiful miniature to encourage players to buy the model, then reduce the points cost by 5% or so for taking it 'as is.' Just enough so it becomes an 'I could make a slightly better build from the base list, but that slightly reduced cost is tempting'

letting players write the history in the way you suggest would be a legal minefield. no legal advisory team in their right mind would allow it. doubly so letting people create special characters as some sort of community thing. because suddenly you have a sticky situation where ownership is.. unsure.

Unfortunately, this is true. You might be able to do some form of waiver, much like is done with authors of short stories, but even that has gone wrong in the past.

 Grimgold wrote:
My thought is the current IoM is too monolithic to be anything other than a blunt instrument, and because of that any advancement of the story line must show it in a diminished state. The current state of the IoM limits the stories that can be told about the IoM, for instance it's hard to pitch the IoM as an underdog, because even if the current army falls the IoM always has more. It's hard to pitch them as clever strategist when they rely on wearing down enemies thru sheer numbers, or virus bombing planets.

At its most basic science fiction is a literature of competence porn, a meritocracy where the clever and the competent can overcome monolithic/all powerful foes like the IoM. In many ways the eldar fit the tropes of sci-fi much better, under dogs on the edge of extinction who survive on wits and technological puissance alone, made ultimately alien and largely unrelatable by the fact the eldar are all basically part of one weird cult or another, but I digress. I get that the grim dark stands in opposition to that kind of thinking, nothing you do matters, and progress is making things decay at a slightly less awful rate. Ultimately though that leads to nihilism and ennui, if nothing schafer and his last chancers did ultimately matters why read about them.

If 40k is going to be a setting of exciting battle, there have to be stakes involved in the form of an opportunity to make the world better or worse thru your actions. For that to happen the IoM must have constraints, must have rivals, must be able to suffer lasting defeat. I think GW is on the right track with the fall of cadia, for 10,000 years cadia has maintained a costly status quo, and with this book that ends, chaos is unshackled, released upon the galaxy under a warmaster who has spent millenia planning and manipulating the IoM to its weakest point. He is joined by the daemon primarchs, some of the most powerful entities to have ever existed, beings who lead mankind to unprecedented heights in the great crusade, and then brought them low during the heresy.

This!

People get attached to things likes the Dawn of War series and specifically the Blood Ravens chapter, precisely because in that small tiny sector in the great big universe, players get a sense that something, however infinitesmially minute in the Grand Scheme of Things, has been accomplished.

And really, that's the -sorta- model that GW has done in the past - focus on a locality, make the situation in that locality interesting for a particular reason, and tell a story......

the problem is that they double-back eventually on Big Metaplot.....Teasers i guess you can call it. Tease, tease tease, and retcon the event if they don't feel it goes down well.

That's basically the 13th Black Crusade in a nutshell, heck that's also Storm of Chaos for WHF.

Its also why i'm tepid about the Fall of Cadia. Not because i don't think its a good idea (because if you want to sell Chaos as an actual Threat without some reciting the 79th FailBaddon joke coming out.... well then they have to actually BE Threatening).

...its just that so many times in the Past, GW blinks and hits the Reset Button.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A massive Orkish civil war to rival the Horus Heresy. Some up and coming warboss doesn't like Ghazgul's face and they duke it out. The civil war threatens an entire segmentum and needs to be contained without making one side stronger.

Now here's a campaign book i could get into.

Orks are one of the better ideas i have seen ITT.

The basic Problem of any changes made by "the people" playing "games" and " moving "the fluff" is,
Warhammer40k isn't famous for....balance.
How many threads do you find at dakka about: OP units, OP armies, codices left behind and outdated, WAAC, etc pp. ?
There is also:
Would GW keep it organized with the manpower they got?
Could anyone supply enough models to put the games up to a scale where those battles should matter?

So if you don't want to eat the goose, you are going to act carefully and aim for personal experience instead of international event. IMO.

Ya know the plot of "Text to Speech"?

Make that happen except without the comedy. Funny enough, when you stand back and look at the plot. its actually the most logical thing that would occur in that scenario. i.e the Emprah gains a method to communicate and what not. He would immediately go about "fixing" the Imperium.