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 Gunzhard wrote:
hmm I mean it's pretty much the CSM 3.5 codex that everyone wanted, it is surprisingly quite similar... now everybody wants something else?

That's overstating things a bit.

Overall, people seem to be happy with Legions. There are still some things that are less than spectacular. Taking the time to discuss them is perfectly reasonable.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
hmm I mean it's pretty much the CSM 3.5 codex that everyone wanted, it is surprisingly quite similar... now everybody wants something else?

People wanted the customizability and background adherent options of 3.5 (even if not necessarily some of the more abusive stuff). The new book doesnt really do that. We still dont have actual Cult armies or appropriate cult units outside of Tac equivalents for things that really should have them, the Legion stuff is in many respect just poorer Chapter Tactics, and a lot of the choices really dont make sense (e.g. IW's using Oblits as Troops).

It's a very far cry from what really made the 3.5 book click with people, and fails to address many longstanding issues.

You pretty much DO get the Cult equivalents for everything outside Slaanesh Terminators. It really is complaining to complain.

It's a very wonky implementation, you can call it complaining just to complain I guess, to me it came out exactly as I anticipated, primarily wonky and missing the mark by a mile. The 3.5E codex was far from perfect,but really did capture the feelmof the legions very well. This book feels like a 10 minute bolt on to a book they could have just rewritten with very little additional production effort to get a dramatically superior end result.

The only thing I'd have done different is giving Word Bearers the Crusader rule by default. Otherwise, each Legion feels like it should. What doesn't?

Crusader seems about right for the detachment IMO. Personally, my thoughts are:

Unholy Pact: Word Bearers units may take Marks for Free. Possessed are Troops. Word Bearers Psykers Manifest Daemonology (Malefic) powers on 3+.

Profane Zeal: Word Bearers Dark Apostles gain the Daemon USR, as do any Word Bearers unit they join. Word Bearers units with the Daemon USR move an additional 3" when moving, running, or charging.

Yes, it does mean the Dark Apostle is getting a better version of the Talisman of Burning Blood, but said Apostle is still moving as an infantry model either way (vs it being a Juggerlord carrying the Talisman)

I'm more concerned about what traitor legions isn't/didn't do.
It's the best that has happened to csm in a long LONG time, even better than IA13. It adressed CSMs biggest flaw. Namely the blandness that is our base dex.
It gave the big nine a face again and made playing csm interesting again.

We're still stuck with the base codex though, which has more issues than simply being bland.
Our unit entries are out of date. With some units hurting more than others. Possessed could pretty good, but as they are they are barely useable.
Their formation ultimately doesn't change that. So the age old adage of "It's not a new codex" remains true.

Then there's the rather hamfisted attempt at cult formations. I want sacred numbers to be incorporated somehow, like the hounds of abaddon getting a buff on rolling an 8 or more on the charge. But forcing people to take a ridiculous amount of units is just bad design. TSons get the worst of it. Min-sized formations in excess of 2000 points?! Dafuk are they smoking? Same for the lord of skulls and its 888 points. How many times have they released its rules now without updating it? It's like pretty sad joke by now.

And on the topic formations, I'm mostly fine with the decurion rules, but I find the decurions themselves pretty lazy. They're all virtually identical and copies of the black crusade.
Thousand Sons get a thematic decurion though. Black Legion also make somewhat sense given how the Black Crusade first appeared in the context of the Black Legion anyway.
Except the Black Legion has a number of issues due to how they were copied without putting any thought into it.

Which is my next complaint.Very little thought was put into the Black Legion. And not just because of how they copied everything from the supplement.
Their relics are out of date imho. Re-rolling invulnerables only while reducing toughness was of dubious worth before, but now we have warpfate. Which does the same thing only better and without downsides and for the whole unit.. And what's with the 75 price tag for the eye of night oO? They also didn't account for switching weapons like they did in other legions. Meaning a Prince with quicksilver actually gets +1 attack for two weapons, which is nice but inconsistent with the rest of the supplement.
They forgot to add their own possessed formation into the detachment as well as the veterans of the legions and of course somehow didn't bother to work in objective secured.

There is also the issue of making units troops. If troops were always objective secured, this would have quite the impact. It would make Black Legion in particular much better, but other legions too would benefit. As it is, we have to use CAD's to get any use out of our changed troop roles, loosing much of what makes the legions special, like the WE 2d6 move or T1 deepstriking. Which wouldn't be much of an issue if they had given us detachments rather than formations we already had.

i have this feeling that things will change.

i mean its a supplement, so it goes with the CSM codex, for now its still the 6th ed codex.

So now we wait for a 7th/8th Ed codex, and i think it will be for this coming year.

i mean the 13th Black Crusade is on, and it will be told and played trought out several books, each will bring new rules and new things, that can be used with Traitor legions.

What im saying is that things are less grim for us, its not perfect, and i doubt it ever will be or that we will ALL be satisfied 100%, we are too bitter because of the Long War for that to happen, but lately those steps that GW is taking are steps in the right directions.

I'm more enclined to be patient that i ever was since 3.5.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
You need to be careful with the wording of the rules... Typhus' plague zombie rule says: "Any Chaos cultist units in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as plague zombies... and cannot purchase upgrades."

Meanwhile the pertinent Death Guard rule says: "units that can take a Mark of Nurgle must do so."

Typhus' rule works when you nominate a cultist unit and that nomination occurs before purchasing upgrades... once you make that nomination the unit "cannot purchase upgrades" and thus cannot take a Mark of Nurgle. They are therefor unaffected by the requirement.

As far as Alpha Legion infiltrating plague zombies go... Your reading appears to be correct since Typhus' rule applies to Chaos cultists in his army and not just his detatchment... and plague zombies are still "Chaos cultist"... That said it seems a very Alpha Legion move to hide pens of plague zombies in a city they want to take over.

I give this response a 10/10 for mental gymnastics. But what will the judges over on YMTC have to say?

Here you go: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/712645.page

 Mr Morden wrote:

Rending Flamers?

Who gets those? There are only a handful of codices I know fairly well, so if rending flamers are a thing then I suppose that's a reason for the 2++ (re-rollable with daemon of Tzeentch )

 ChazSexington wrote:
Alpha Legion, effectively, are pretty trash.

Cultists are trash; LatD, even in an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force, are objectively worse than the alternative choice, the Unending Host for Renegades. And since when did the Alpha Legion run Dark Apostles!?
Alpha Legion got specialties in Chosen and CSMs, two other trash units.
T1 Shroud is nice, but need to run the Decurion for it.
CSMs had access to Infiltrating Unmarked Shrouded Chosen through Cypher previously, and they sucked balls
Mindveil is fun, but has to be run in a CAD to get access to a delivery method (re: ForgeWorld).
We still lack a Fearless/...ATSKNF equivalent.

Honestly though, I did like the Warlord rules though. If the underlying units (Cultists, Chosen, and CSMs) were fixed, it would work well. But, they're awful. There's just a lack of synergy, 'cause I like both the Drakescale Plate, Mindveil, Infiltrate... but it doesn't fit together.

Alpha Legion are definitely among the weaker traitor legions but they're not trash. The cultist thing seems like a pain to really take advantage of but if you did go down that route then I think a fairly strong MSU army can be put together.

If running a CAD chosen troops provide a bunch of options you couldn't get otherwise, like lots of special weapons or the option to take a heavy weapon on a unit of 5. Infiltrating chosen melta squads in rhinos provides more fast melta guns to go with melta bike squads, or you could spam plasma or flamers instead. For me, having chosen as troops means your troop units don't have to feel like such a tax and you can give them a purpose they'll be effective at

As you've pointed out, the decurion bonus of T1 shrouded (potentially stealth too) is decent, and can help get units closer (we're still a close range army) or keep your guys alive while outflankers/deep strikers sit in reserve (fluffy).

Free veterans of the long war makes units leadership 10, which isn't fearless or ATSKNF, but we aren't meant to have those. It's something that fundamentally separates us from loyalists and has been for as long as I remember

as for alpha legion running dark apostles, iv that really gets you don't model em as dark apostles, their job in this case is clearly "cult leader" and I'm pretty sure the alpha legion has marines setting up their cults

I love it Love this book. As an Alpha Legion player I loved this, but the cthough I'd have just suggested a few things.

1) Be nice to have the option to take 1 x Lord of Skulls in the special battle company detachment
2) Option to avoid forced challenges for Thousand Sons. Christ's sake, you have zombie-automatons to do the menial melee for you
3) Plague Zombies as cultists as a flat out troop choice
4) Alpha Legion cultists needed more options. Melta Bombs or flamers. If anything, Genestealer Cultists seem like cooler Alpha Legion cultists, but it's a good effort all the same.

I love this book. The powers, the artefacts, the tactics and traits. It didn't fix all the things I hated, but I really enjoy building lists now. Sincerely, (formerly Inquisitor Shego of Warseer, one of the biggest CSM 7th Haters of that time)

BrianDavion wrote:
as for alpha legion running dark apostles, iv that really gets you don't model em as dark apostles, their job in this case is clearly "cult leader" and I'm pretty sure the alpha legion has marines setting up their cults

That's how I'd run a dark apostle in the formation. Maybe use the Dark Vengeance chaos lord with the power maul and imagine them as a cult leader like you suggest.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

Alpha Legion are definitely among the weaker traitor legions but they're not trash. The cultist thing seems like a pain to really take advantage of but if you did go down that route then I think a fairly strong MSU army can be put together.

If running a CAD chosen troops provide a bunch of options you couldn't get otherwise, like lots of special weapons or the option to take a heavy weapon on a unit of 5. Infiltrating chosen melta squads in rhinos provides more fast melta guns to go with melta bike squads, or you could spam plasma or flamers instead. For me, having chosen as troops means your troop units don't have to feel like such a tax and you can give them a purpose they'll be effective at

As you've pointed out, the decurion bonus of T1 shrouded (potentially stealth too) is decent, and can help get units closer (we're still a close range army) or keep your guys alive while outflankers/deep strikers sit in reserve (fluffy).

Free veterans of the long war makes units leadership 10, which isn't fearless or ATSKNF, but we aren't meant to have those. It's something that fundamentally separates us from loyalists and has been for as long as I remember

Trash may have been a heat of the moment thing for me

Our MSU isn't good compared to the MSU lists other codices can run.

Chosen are hilariously expensive, and we're basically running them as expensive Havocs. GW should have done what FW did, and alter point costs for upgrades depending on the unit. A Chaos Lord gets a lot more mileage out of a power sword than a Chosen.

In my experience with Fallen Champions (thus Shrouded Chosen), they still die too fast for what they cost. There's too much Ignores Cover out there.

I agree, but immunity to sweeping advance isn't worth just 1 point. We need something that prevents us from being massacred. I would have thought Stubborn for all Legions would be a great place to start to reflect this.