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How would the ships and Death Star of the Empire from Star Wars fare in a battle with the Imperium of Man's fleets and does anyone have any ideas for the rules of their ships for Battlefleet Gothic. Also how could the Imperium deal with the Death Star?
Thanks
Could the Sisters of Battle resist the force?

Probably very well - the Star Wars universe is definitely higher up than the 40k universe when it comes to super powered fantasy tech. Really depends on your overall perception of power though.

It was pointed out in another discussion that it would be quite easy for 40k forces, especially space marines, to board and utterly decemate any star wars space craft.

Even without that trick up 40k's sleeve, the Star wars ships only outclass imperial ships in traversing large distances: hyper drive being fsr superior to warp travel. Imperial space craft are much larger than star destroyers and pack much more fire power so in a direct fleet vs fleet battle I would place my bet on 40k.

As for the deathstar, it has planet killing properties but not such a great ship vs ship fighter so after the imperial dtar destroyers are dealt with it would obly be a matter of time before sustained fire and voarding attempts eventually brought it down.
Alternatively Abaddon jumps out of no where and planet kills the death star.

"Voarding actions"
Is that a combination of Violating and Boarding Actions there

Can we put in Star Trek into the mix?

Davor wrote:
Can we put in Star Trek into the mix?

Allow me to write a bit of a star trek 40k cross over.

Space the final frontier, The USS Enterprise drifts through the vastness of Space. it encounters a giant multi kilometer sized ship and hails it attempting to speak, leaving sheilds down etc. said multi km ship opens fire and promtly destroys the enterprise.

BrianDavion wrote:

Davor wrote:
Can we put in Star Trek into the mix?

Allow me to write a bit of a star trek 40k cross over.

Space the final frontier, The USS Enterprise drifts through the vastness of Space. it encounters a giant multi kilometer sized ship and hails it attempting to speak, leaving sheilds down etc. said multi km ship opens fire and promtly destroys the enterprise.

But since this is the Enterprise after all you forgot the time distortion/displacement that will occur. Question is, which Chaos god will be involved to pull the stings of that crew?

These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

Zentraedi fleet. Done.

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Star Wars has absolutely no chance against 40k.

BrianDavion wrote:

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't. And is the Federation really so stupid that they just let an unknown fire upon them while their shields are down? Besides, Romulans and Klingons are in this mix too I suppose, but this topic was more about Star Wars anyway.

As far as pictures of ships and their size, while very cool I don't see how relevant that is to the discussion. Is a zeppelin a match for modern fighter?

 amanita wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't. And is the Federation really so stupid that they just let an unknown fire upon them while their shields are down? Besides, Romulans and Klingons are in this mix too I suppose, but this topic was more about Star Wars anyway.

As far as pictures of ships and their size, while very cool I don't see how relevant that is to the discussion. Is a zeppelin a match for modern fighter?

Scale helps when the Imperium has torpedoes larger than the Enterprise. A typical cargo ship is larger than a Star Destroyer.

In both Star Trek and Star Wars ships battle a few hundred yards from one another. In the Imperium ships battle from several hundred thousand kilometers away.

 DeffDred wrote:

 amanita wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't. And is the Federation really so stupid that they just let an unknown fire upon them while their shields are down? Besides, Romulans and Klingons are in this mix too I suppose, but this topic was more about Star Wars anyway.

As far as pictures of ships and their size, while very cool I don't see how relevant that is to the discussion. Is a zeppelin a match for modern fighter?

Scale helps when the Imperium has torpedoes larger than the Enterprise. A typical cargo ship is larger than a Star Destroyer.

In both Star Trek and Star Wars ships battle a few hundred yards from one another. In the Imperium ships battle from several hundred thousand kilometers away.

Ha!

No.

Torpedoes the size of a ship are totally irrelevant. Do you think you could hit a hummingbird with a balloon? And the range of Federation ship's phasers is stated as 300,000 kilometers. Anti-matter torpedoes at 2,500,000 kilometers. From a ship moving faster than the speed of light. Just saying. Scale hardly matters when technologically over matched.

 amanita wrote:

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't.

Classic trekkie fanwank. "We only ever saw this in dire circumstances (or not at all) but they could totally do it all the time if they wanted to". Which episodes demonstrate ship-to-ship superluminal combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 amanita wrote:
And the range of Federation ship's phasers is stated as 300,000 kilometers. Anti-matter torpedoes at 2,500,000 kilometers. From a ship moving faster than the speed of light. Just saying. Scale hardly matters when technologically over matched.

And in what episode did they engage from hundreds of thousands of kilometers? Oh wait, that never happened.

Also, projectile weapon range in space is effectively unlimited (as should be obvious) the limitation is in what you're able to effectively target and we see common engagement ranges in star trek as being a few kilometers with accuracy still being poor at those ranges. It's also notable that we never see the superior range of torpedoes being utilized, instead both weapon are generally used together confirming that targeting is the limitation.

 amanita wrote:
Torpedoes the size of a ship are totally irrelevant. Do you think you could hit a hummingbird with a balloon? And the range of Federation ship's phasers is stated as 300,000 kilometers. Anti-matter torpedoes at 2,500,000 kilometers. From a ship moving faster than the speed of light. Just saying. Scale hardly matters when technologically over matched.

Okay so let's flip that around. Ships the size of torpedoes are totally irrelevant. Do you think a humming bird can take on a blue whale?

Technology hardly matters when ships are out classed.

"Commander! Take an away team to the transporter and board the enemy vessel and try to-"
*Massive flash of light blows out the bridge killing all crew on the deck. 5 Terminators look around confused*
"For the Emperor!"

Meh. Let's see Tyranids vs. Independence Day aliens. That at least should be interesting.

Gerbil13 wrote:
How would the ships and Death Star of the Empire from Star Wars fare in a battle with the Imperium of Man's fleets and does anyone have any ideas for the rules of their ships for Battlefleet Gothic. Also how could the Imperium deal with the Death Star?
Thanks
Could the Sisters of Battle resist the force?

The scale question makes the BFG comparison an odd one; a Star Destroyer is about the size of an Imperial frigate, for instance, and a 'fighter' in Warhammer would be an anti-fighter frigate in Star Wars. I wouldn't try pitting them directly against each other.

That said BFG rules for the Star Wars ships fighting each other could be cool, but given the greater impact of fightercraft you might need to rethink the launch bay rules and there aren't anywhere near as many variations on the ships.

Star Trek is one of my favourites but this thread is about Star Wars. Just to clear up some previously mentioned points about Star Trek, they can fight at warp speeds and have demonstrated it numerous times, I feel silly giving references for this because they are so obvious ST Nemesis!!!!! Plus in the series. That said we have (as far as I remember) never seen them fighting a ship not at warp aswel and the fights we do see are always chases not dogfights. As for the ranges in Star Trek they are VERY far but the producers make the ships look closer to make the show better to see also they put in sound in space for same reasons. Every episode with combat probably states the range as dialogue but the best reference is probably the episode TNG The Wounded.

Star Wars would roll 40k. More reliable tech, more ships, more advanced ship speeds, on par weapons technology, higher production, and the most OP gak in existence Jedi and Sith. Look at what Vader did at the end of Rogue One in less than a minute.

All the Space Marines in one ship would be dead in 20 minutes tops (or however long it takes to traverse the ship or just get to the engines and blow the ship up). Even warp power wouldn't do anything since you need to be conscious to fight back and he instantly chokes you to death. The psykers simply have no time.

Star Wars has more accurate weaponry as well.

I know people give flak to Stormtrooper armor but ultimately armor can only pad so much from concussive damage of any type since biological are frail and squishy.

With the new Star Wars movies the Stormtroopers are far better shots especially the elite Deathtroopers who cleared a beach of rebels with basically a single squad.

Star Wars is more organized and can strike weaker undefended targets and hit the Imperial infrastructure. In Rogue One they hop around the entire galaxy in like... seconds or mere hours from planet to planet.

Whatever contest 40k might have put up has thoroughly been destroyed by what Rogue One has shown us. Star Wars planetary shields are super powerful as shown and we know the Deathstar can shoot through those since no one ever mentions its a concern.

The Hammead pushes the disabled Imperial Star Destroyer like its a toy and rams it so hard into the other active one it cuts it in half and destroys both of them and itself. This is far stronger sublight speeds and engines than anything I've seen in 40k.

Star wars ships win because of one fact alone they can cover distance quicker and with greater accuracy they never have to engage the iom forces they can strike at will anywhere in the galaxy and even with a massive fleet you can't be everywhere at once in sufficient numbers to win.

hobojebus wrote:
Star wars ships win because of one fact alone they can cover distance quicker and with greater accuracy they never have to engage the iom forces they can strike at will anywhere in the galaxy and even with a massive fleet you can't be everywhere at once in sufficient numbers to win.

They also have highly reliable transit times. 40K FTL travel is pretty fast (not as fast as SW but way faster than ST) but the extreme degree of variation in transit time makes coordinating feet actions much harder.

The big question mark would be - does the navigational data obtainable by the Empire's agent contain enough of the right kind of information for plotting hyperspace jumps? Of it doesn't then that makes navigation difficult.

On the other hand, the imperium is in an even worse place in the SW galaxy without the astronomicon for guidance.


We also don't know how effective SW and 40K shield technology is against the others weapons. SW shield tech is clearly very advanced (able to be shaped to conform to the Hull, able to have openings created in it, able to be selectively permeable) but we don't know if it can block teleportation, for example.

 Gamgee wrote:

All the Space Marines in one ship would be dead in 20 minutes tops (or however long it takes to traverse the ship or just get to the engines and blow the ship up). Even warp power wouldn't do anything since you need to be conscious to fight back and he instantly chokes you to death. The psykers simply have no time.

Star Wars has more accurate weaponry as well.

I know people give flak to Stormtrooper armor but ultimately armor can only pad so much from concussive damage of any type since biological are frail and squishy.

With the new Star Wars movies the Stormtroopers are far better shots especially the elite Deathtroopers who cleared a beach of rebels with basically a single squad.

I can conceed that Star Wars would run circles around 40k in space warfare but man vs man?

Vader would not be able to solo a ship of space marines for the simple reason that he can't deflect bolter shots with his lightsaber, they would hit it, explode, and tear through him with high velocity shrapnel. Psykers would be able curb stomp Vader, a psyker can do all Vader can do and more, a psyker could tear vader open from the inside out.

Star wars troopers are more accurate than imperial guard, why? Because stormtroopers are trained for longer whilst guardsmen barely learn which end of a gun shoots before they ship out. Space marines and inquisition on the other hand are crack shots.

As for armour it would be useless. Vs las weapons, these are weapons described as vaporising people despite their flash light quality on the table top. Vs boltguns, high calibre explosive, plutonium filled rounds that are used to literaly blow holes through their victims.

Once again, space warfare star wars may have the edge but ground warfare? One space marine with a chainsword could take over an imperial star destroyer.

 amanita wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't. And is the Federation really so stupid that they just let an unknown fire upon them while their shields are down? Besides, Romulans and Klingons are in this mix too I suppose, but this topic was more about Star Wars anyway.

As far as pictures of ships and their size, while very cool I don't see how relevant that is to the discussion. Is a zeppelin a match for modern fighter?

Yes, the Federation is so stupid, they would let an enemy fire upon them while their shields are down. It's happened countless times in Star Trek, they roll up on strange ships all the time with their shields down, the consider raising shields and arming weapons an unwelcome greeting, and we'd get some 5 min speech about how much they have evolved past such pettiness. Meanwhile Star Wars and Warhammer 40k ships drop out of warp/lightspeed with guns blazing sometimes... because hey... the area might need to be cleared.

Star Trek and Star Wars both have some fun tricks up their sleeves, and will unaccountably cause damage, but in any protracted engagement, 40k would win. The simple fact is, while there may be war in Star Trek and Star Wars, those conflicts are brief in the grand history of both universes. 40k is nothing but a 10,000 year long war, it's a kill or be killed universe, where everything is far more brutal. Yes Star Wars has the Death Star, but 40k has ships that can do the same thing, and not just one here or there, but numerous ones. And they can take a lot more punishment then a single torpedo shot down a vent.

Davor wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Davor wrote:
Can we put in Star Trek into the mix?

Allow me to write a bit of a star trek 40k cross over.

Space the final frontier, The USS Enterprise drifts through the vastness of Space. it encounters a giant multi kilometer sized ship and hails it attempting to speak, leaving sheilds down etc. said multi km ship opens fire and promtly destroys the enterprise.

But since this is the Enterprise after all you forgot the time distortion/displacement that will occur. Question is, which Chaos god will be involved to pull the stings of that crew?

It's always Tzeentch.

Not to get too deep into this discussion, but the best evidence I have ever seen is this.

Star Trek's Detailed Technical Manuals for ships give power ratings in Mega (M,1000000) and Kilo(k,1000)
Star Wars Detailed Technical Manuals for ships give power ratings in Tera(T, 1000000000000) and Giga(G, 1000000000)

Which implied that something like an X-wings energy weapons cutting through the Enterprise's shields, and hull, like a hot knife through butter.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

40K Ships are larger, slower, and less advanced than Star Wars, but they do have Exterminatus level weapons then can employ from orbit.

Star Wars ships have more advanced technology, that they actually undestand how to use, and use way more fighter/bombers.

As for power levels, I don't know, there is no real to compare energy output, because 40K lacks detailed manuals for ships.

For massed land battles, I give the edge to 40K. Pretty easy to imagine Imperial Space Marines wading through Storm Troopers (which I imagine to be about Tau Fire Warrior equivalents)


In my BFG experience, you can drown your opponent in fighters/bombers and torpedoes.
The Rebellion is all about X-Wings and Y-Wings making bombing runs and blowing up moon sized targets....

 DeffDred wrote:

 amanita wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't. And is the Federation really so stupid that they just let an unknown fire upon them while their shields are down? Besides, Romulans and Klingons are in this mix too I suppose, but this topic was more about Star Wars anyway.

As far as pictures of ships and their size, while very cool I don't see how relevant that is to the discussion. Is a zeppelin a match for modern fighter?

Scale helps when the Imperium has torpedoes larger than the Enterprise. A typical cargo ship is larger than a Star Destroyer.

In both Star Trek and Star Wars ships battle a few hundred yards from one another. In the Imperium ships battle from several hundred thousand kilometers away.

well, a lot of that comes from visual placement of models on screen for audiences, a lot of the diaglogue in star trek fights talks about distances betwern ships being tens of thousands of kilometers away or more, but doesnt look cool on screen.

Star Wars though does very much have that issue.

In general however, none of these universes would actually work, 40k ships are too big for conventional materials and none of these universes could operate at the accelerations theyre portrayed at (though star trek actually addressed this with the fantasy idea of inertial dampeners) and thousands of other issues. Theyrr not event internally self consistent, an actual photon torpedo with an antimatter warhead as portrayed in star trek would utterly obliterate anything it hit like several thousand nukes going off at once, but they rarely actually reflect that, often doing no more damage than poking a hole in external plating like a WW2 aircraft rocket or the like. Meanwhilr 40k ships have turrets turned and loaded by slave gang crews pulling large chains and operating like vast 18th century naval vessels.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

All the Space Marines in one ship would be dead in 20 minutes tops (or however long it takes to traverse the ship or just get to the engines and blow the ship up). Even warp power wouldn't do anything since you need to be conscious to fight back and he instantly chokes you to death. The psykers simply have no time.

Star Wars has more accurate weaponry as well.

I know people give flak to Stormtrooper armor but ultimately armor can only pad so much from concussive damage of any type since biological are frail and squishy.

With the new Star Wars movies the Stormtroopers are far better shots especially the elite Deathtroopers who cleared a beach of rebels with basically a single squad.

I can conceed that Star Wars would run circles around 40k in space warfare but man vs man?

Vader would not be able to solo a ship of space marines for the simple reason that he can't deflect bolter shots with his lightsaber, they would hit it, explode, and tear through him with high velocity shrapnel. Psykers would be able curb stomp Vader, a psyker can do all Vader can do and more, a psyker could tear vader open from the inside out.

Star wars troopers are more accurate than imperial guard, why? Because stormtroopers are trained for longer whilst guardsmen barely learn which end of a gun shoots before they ship out. Space marines and inquisition on the other hand are crack shots.

As for armour it would be useless. Vs las weapons, these are weapons described as vaporising people despite their flash light quality on the table top. Vs boltguns, high calibre explosive, plutonium filled rounds that are used to literaly blow holes through their victims.

Once again, space warfare star wars may have the edge but ground warfare? One space marine with a chainsword could take over an imperial star destroyer.

Vader can read minds. He will know the bullets they shoot are explosive and either take the guns before they can react because he is a force user and that is what they do, or he can just reflect the shots back at them and they get hit and killed. Or just snap their necks before they hit the trigger. Smash the guns with the force. Take your pick.

Except we see a new type of blaster shoot through an AT-AT leg in the battle of Sarif. It is a door mounted one, but they clearly have heavier types of blasters. Look at the big dude with the huge walking power supply on his back has. Or Chirrut the force user has a freaking staff that turns into a laser so strong it can one shot a Tie fighter! Your average blaster weapon is as strong as it needs to be, but they can get insane fast and for small amounts. Not to mention we've seen missiles used on the ground in Rogue One. So they clearly have more advanced ground weapons than they show.

The IoM if it can get Space Marines into a position where there are no Jedi is going to have a huge advantage. I'm not going to lie. If they can't or the marines pods get shot down on the way to the ship because the teleportatrium failed or missed or killed them then they are screwed. Considering we see the point defense lasers hit faster more agile craft then the drop pod all the time I think the amount of marines making it to the ships is low. The IoM simply doesn't have enough Marines to protect every planet that is inevitably going to get hit and their regular forces are hopeless outmatched. Meanwhile in Star Wars land we can just make more ships and always reliably have fleets and soldiers trained to a higher base level than the IoM's Navy and the Imperial Guard. The Space Marines are simply not enough to win this on their own.

If even a single chapter gets wiped out in an assault in a fleet action it would be devastating blow to the IoM and realistically 20-40% of the drop pods will not make it. 5-15% of the teleportarium soldiers will not make it. Another 10% of losses from Thunder Hawk Gunships being blown up. Then you face vader at half strength and who knows what else kooky Sith they are always digging up from Star Wars rebels like Maul or even the Emperor himself. Or you fight some crazy Jedi like Mace Windu who takes on whole armies on his own.

No chance. If the IoM could get the Marines into the positions they need to be it would be a different situation, but they can't and Space marines take forever to replace where as there will be a never ending tide of soldiers all at the same level of training. Also the Star Wars universe does occasionally progress technology if it needs to. If by some chance the Space Marines hold them up long enough it wouldn't take long for Star Wars to just make some new powerful weapon or upgraded blasters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkcolVxDy0#t=1m33s

I don't think it is very fair to say: "They hav Vader therefore they win", 40k has some extremely powerful psykers, some who would laugh at Vader's force abilities.

I am not a space marine player so lets say it is Lord Vader's fleet vs Ahriman and a fleet of sorcerors (mainly because I have been reading TS fluff recently).

So Lord Vader has heard about a planet of psychic beings and has gone to get rid of the threat. Ahriman and his sorcerors foresee his arrival and summon a warp storm around the world to trap the approaching fleet in.
Vader's fleet arrives in orbit and the Empire's ships' system are immediately disrupted by the warp storm: tracking systems become unreliable, shielding is flickering and any attempt to hyperdrive away would be suicide.
With Vader's defences down, Ahriman seeks to destroy their ships targeting systems and shielding permanently. This leads to a similtanious bormardment from the TS fleet and Silver towers (at home in the storm) and teleportation, boarding attacks and psychic teleportation onto the ships.
Upon the ships, sorcerors of the TS begin to summon Tzeentchian Daemons and destroy vital systems whilst the rubricae slaughter the crew on board the ship.
Vader is now furious so gathers his Imperial Guard and Elite Stormtroopers and personally fights the creatures who have vialated his ship. This elite unit tears through Daemons and Rubricae but sustain many casualties.
Many sorcerors fall before Vader but the battle soon takes its toll as the sustained ranked fire of the Rubricae, psychic attacks of the sorcerors and Tzeentchian flames of the Daemons have left Lord Vader alone.
At this point, without the support of a sith Lord many of the other ships have fallen into the hands of the TS.
Now Ahriman has three options: turn the full power of his new corrupted fleet on Lord Vader's ship, order the Daemons and Sorcerors on said ship to destroy the reactor or Ahriman can personally duel Vader.
If Ahriman were to personally face Vader, at the very least Vader would have met his match but, IMO, Ahriman being the arch-sorceror of Tzeentch and empowered by the warp storm summoned would tip the fight in his favour.

If the Empire were to invade 40k the Imperium might well fall but I would like to point out that these new invaders would be easy pickings for the corrupting touch of chaos and I would imagine many Empire ships would be lost in the many warp storms that plague the galaxy.

Since no one in Star Wars believes in the warp with every conquered world the warp loses power. Then Marka Ragnos shows up in Sith Spirit form and other malevolent force spirits to kick the gak out of the deamons and Ahriman. The Sith Emperor from The Old Republic can drain the life from entire planets by thinking it to increase his own power. He was close to draining the life from the entire galaxy at one point. Palpatine can summon a massive force storms and see the future with near perfect precision. The highest tiers of force users are far more powerful than Vader.

The biggest slow down in the conquest of the 40k galaxy is the stronger 40k psykers, but even they will be ground under heel eventually. Deathstar shows up boom dead. It can shoot at targets further than the teleportarium range can get to.

All the ancient Sith Lords and Darths can show up with their retainers to do battle (ghosts).