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 Gamgee wrote:
Since no one in Star Wars believes in the warp with every conquered world the warp loses power. Then Marka Ragnos shows up in Sith Spirit form and other malevolent force spirits to kick the gak out of the deamons and Ahriman. The Sith Emperor from The Old Republic can drain the life from entire planets by thinking it to increase his own power. He was close to draining the life from the entire galaxy at one point. Palpatine can summon a massive force storms and see the future with near perfect precision. The highest tiers of force users are far more powerful than Vader.

The biggest slow down in the conquest of the 40k galaxy is the stronger 40k psykers, but even they will be ground under heel eventually. Deathstar shows up boom dead. It can shoot at targets further than the teleportarium range can get to.

All the ancient Sith Lords and Darths can show up with their retainers to do battle (ghosts).

Does the Force even exist in our galaxy? I also know that you play Dark Heresy, so I'm sure you've read about the Templars Calix. They're basically 40k jedi ninjas. Basically what I'm saying is "Star Wars has Jedi, therefor they win" isn't much of an argument.

Seriously though, that Vader scene at the end of Rogue One was like the greatest 60 seconds in the Star Wars universe.

 Gamgee wrote:

Vader can read minds. He will know the bullets they shoot are explosive and either take the guns before they can react because he is a force user and that is what they do, or he can just reflect the shots back at them and they get hit and killed. Or just snap their necks before they hit the trigger. Smash the guns with the force. Take your pick.

Where is the canon to suggest this level of power?

 Gamgee wrote:
Since no one in Star Wars believes in the warp with every conquered world the warp loses power.

Hardly any imperial citizens, imperial guardsman or space marines know about chaos but it doesn't stop chaos from corrupting them. You don't need to know about the warp, you just need to carry out actions that fuel the chaos gods. In fact most sith lords would probably be corrupted by the ruinous powers due to their hatred, hubris, narcism, sadism, power hunger, etc. With ever world that falls to the Empire the Chaos Gods will grow stronger.

 Gamgee wrote:
Then Marka Ragnos shows up in Sith Spirit form and other malevolent force spirits to kick the gak out of the deamons and Ahriman.

And what if Lords of Change show up? Daemon Lords of extreme power that can tear your ghosts a new one.

 Gamgee wrote:
The Sith Emperor from The Old Republic can drain the life from entire planets by thinking it to increase his own power. He was close to draining the life from the entire galaxy at one point. Palpatine can summon a massive force storms and see the future with perfect precision.

Standard 40k sorcerors can drain the life from their foes, I am sure some of the greater sorcerors could drain far more. Sorcerors can summon warp storms and Kairos Fateweaver can see the past and the future.

 Gamgee wrote:
the highest tiers of force users are far more powerful than Vader.

And I am sure that Magnus could probably solo all of them seeing as though at the end of Wrath of Magnus his power was so great no one could harm him, even Dark Angel orbital bombardments did him no damage (the same orbital bombardments used to level entire civilisations), and he was only stopped by the use of a Khornate weapon (heresy!) although it might have all been just as planned as Magnus telported away to use his new power to tear a whole in space to pull his Daemon planet through.

 Gamgee wrote:

The biggest slow down in the conquest of the 40k galaxy is the stronger 40k psykers, but even they will be ground under heel eventually.

Once again, Magnus: unkillable.

 Gamgee wrote:
Deathstar shows up boom dead. It can shoot at targets further than the teleportarium range can get to.

Planet Killer shows up, boom dead, no deathstar.

 Gamgee wrote:

All the ancient Sith Lords and Darths can show up with their retainers to do battle (ghosts).

All the ancient Sorcerors can show up as greater Daemons (there souls repurposed in the warp).

And of course none of this matters when most of the sith Lords have fallen to chaos halfway through their campaign against the Imperium.

 Elbows wrote:
Zentraedi fleet. Done.

Yes!

Not. Capital ships in Star Wars are just not very strong even in-universe, let alone when measured against capital ships from different franchises. I mean, 3 small fighters were enough to take out an entire Super Star Destroyer in Return of the Jedi...
Nova Cannons and Vortex Torpedoes would blast through an entire fleet of Star Destroyers in no time. Star Wars ships can't repel firepower of that magnitude.
Also, the Warp would just screw the Empire or the Rebel Alliance (or any group with an open, more or less tolerant culture) really quickly.

 Gamgee wrote:
Since no one in Star Wars believes in the warp with every conquered world the warp loses power. Then Marka Ragnos shows up in Sith Spirit form and other malevolent force spirits to kick the gak out of the deamons and Ahriman. The Sith Emperor from The Old Republic can drain the life from entire planets by thinking it to increase his own power. He was close to draining the life from the entire galaxy at one point. Palpatine can summon a massive force storms and see the future with near perfect precision. The highest tiers of force users are far more powerful than Vader.

The biggest slow down in the conquest of the 40k galaxy is the stronger 40k psykers, but even they will be ground under heel eventually. Deathstar shows up boom dead. It can shoot at targets further than the teleportarium range can get to.

All the ancient Sith Lords and Darths can show up with their retainers to do battle (ghosts).

You don't need to believe in the Warp in order to power it. The Dark Gods draw power from your emotions. They couldn't care less if you believe in them or not. And since the Sith tend to be quite strong on the emotional side they'd be corrupted in no time.

Actually, that is probably what would happen. Palpatine and the Empire would rapidly fall to Chaos and legions of daemonic stormtroopers armed with nightmarish technology and led by warp-amplified Sith Lords would conquer everything and plunge the galaxy in total darkness. Also, Darth Vader replaces Failbaddon the Armless as the leader of the forces of Chaos Undivided. All will rejoice. GW, Disney, please make this happen.

Then each codex can come with a collection of faction specific songs that can be used to make our very own musicals?

 Gamgee wrote:
Since no one in Star Wars believes in the warp with every conquered world the warp loses power. Then Marka Ragnos shows up in Sith Spirit form and other malevolent force spirits to kick the gak out of the deamons and Ahriman. The Sith Emperor from The Old Republic can drain the life from entire planets by thinking it to increase his own power. He was close to draining the life from the entire galaxy at one point. Palpatine can summon a massive force storms and see the future with near perfect precision. The highest tiers of force users are far more powerful than Vader.

The biggest slow down in the conquest of the 40k galaxy is the stronger 40k psykers, but even they will be ground under heel eventually. Deathstar shows up boom dead. It can shoot at targets further than the teleportarium range can get to.

All the ancient Sith Lords and Darths can show up with their retainers to do battle (ghosts).

ok first of all saying Vader iisn't super powerful is silly, he's noted as being the most powerful ever, the fact that gakky EU writing invented characters like Vitiate/Valkoryian/whateverthefethhecallshimselfinKOTEE doesn't change anything.

secondly, might wanna be careful with mentioning stuff from Rogue 1. not everyone's seen it yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 amanita wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 amanita wrote:
These discussions pop up every now and then, but I'd have to give the edge to Star Trek.

They dogfight at superluminal speeds.

Game over.

they fight at superlumerial speeds, except in every episode where they don't. also it'd not be a fair fight due to doctrinal issues (which I pointed out) the federation belives in peaceful first contract, with sheilds down etc. in 40k I suspect they have a "fire first then sift through he wreckage later" policy.

Yeah, I got that. Just because most episodes they don't fight at superluminal speeds doesn't mean they can't. And is the Federation really so stupid that they just let an unknown fire upon them while their shields are down? Besides, Romulans and Klingons are in this mix too I suppose, but this topic was more about Star Wars anyway.

As far as pictures of ships and their size, while very cool I don't see how relevant that is to the discussion. Is a zeppelin a match for modern fighter?

The federation absolutely would be so stupid to stand off an unknown, potentially hostile ships bow, with their sheilds down while broadcasting the Star Trek equivilant of Bah-weep-Graaaaagnah wheep ni ni bong

40k would rekt Star Wars.

The space marines always get all the credit! When its other forces that do the hard work. When the empire attacks they won't be fighting the space marines they will be fighting the endless armies of the imperial guard even if the empire can muster enough to overwhelm a endless army they would have suffered monstrous casualties and then when the empire assaults have been withered and the sisters of battle have kicked some butts then the mighty space marines will roll in and save the day. In a ground war the best the empire can hope for is a stalemate, I'm discounting the Sith Lord and Vader being able to beat everyone simply because they didn't exactly prove themselves in the battle of Endor or yavin or when the rebels exscaped on hoff or when the rebels stole the Death Star plans and so on... it has been stated the empire can use their superior speed to hit the Imperium trade and factories but I'm sure the Imperium will use the convoy tactic when they figure out the empire is bleeding their supplies and then the empire won't be attacking just transports they'll be fighting warships aswell and if they attack the Imperiums factories (the forge worlds) they will only get there quickly but they will still have to defeat the combined fleets of the imperial navy AND the more advanced fleets of the Machanicum this means the empire will be drawn into a gigantic battle of 40k proportions.
We don't know how good BFG firepower is compared to SW but if we simply say they are equal then a mere one shot frigate will match a star destroyer.

But what about if the imperium (after a while) sends a whole fleet to invade the SW galaxy and while this war is happening as seen in Rogue One who is going to keep all the systems in line when all the star destroyers are fighting sword class frigates or lunar classes, who is going to chase the rebels and fight a internal (civil)war against said rebel alliance.

Gerbil13 wrote:
The space marines always get all the credit! When its other forces that do the hard work. When the empire attacks they won't be fighting the space marines they will be fighting the endless armies of the imperial guard even if the empire can muster enough to overwhelm a endless army they would have suffered monstrous casualties and then when the empire assaults have been withered and the sisters of battle have kicked some butts then the mighty space marines will roll in and save the day. In a ground war the best the empire can hope for is a stalemate, I'm discounting the Sith Lord and Vader being able to beat everyone simply because they didn't exactly prove themselves in the battle of Endor or yavin or when the rebels exscaped on hoff or when the rebels stole the Death Star plans and so on... it has been stated the empire can use their superior speed to hit the Imperium trade and factories but I'm sure the Imperium will use the convoy tactic when they figure out the empire is bleeding their supplies and then the empire won't be attacking just transports they'll be fighting warships aswell and if they attack the Imperiums factories (the forge worlds) they will only get there quickly but they will still have to defeat the combined fleets of the imperial navy AND the more advanced fleets of the Machanicum this means the empire will be drawn into a gigantic battle of 40k proportions.
We don't know how good BFG firepower is compared to SW but if we simply say they are equal then a mere one shot frigate will match a star destroyer.

But what about if the imperium (after a while) sends a whole fleet to invade the SW galaxy and while this war is happening as seen in Rogue One who is going to keep all the systems in line when all the star destroyers are fighting sword class frigates or lunar classes, who is going to chase the rebels and fight a internal (civil)war against said rebel alliance.

you're assuming the empire couldn't match numbers with numbers, the galatic empire in SW is just that

True but then they'll just fight to a stalemate like I said


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then we might get another codex!!!

This hasn't been mentioned yet but what about the fact that the Imperium's defences are far superior to the Empire's? (Ground defences rather than space)

How do you think the Empire would fair if they attempted to invade a planet like Vraks? The siege warfare upon Vraks took the Imperium's siege warfare specialists 7 years to break the defences WITH help from Space Marine chapters, titan legions, Inquisition forces and an almost endless supply of troops and equipment. They even had complete airial superiority (for the most part).
How would the Empire fight such a battle?

I'm sure someone here is a big enough Star Wars person to explain the size of the Empire. While I'd give Star Wars my nod simply based on tech/speed/etc...if the Imperium outnumbers the Empire 10:1, then it's all pretty irrelevant.

It's another reason I mentioned the Zentraedi.

Pros:
+Million or more ships.
+40'-60' tall aliens
+Mindless clones which can be produced en mass.
+Mastered travel and orbital bombardments
+Ships carry thousands of mecha/fighters/warmachines
+Could easily wreck a planet or overwhelm any 40K force by sheer numbers.

Cons:
-A girl sang a song, they became sad and blew up.

Info from my memory of the EU. The empire covers maybe over half the SW galaxy and have around 25000 star destroyers alone. The storm troopers are in fact only a special force like the storm troopers of the Imperium and they have a much more bigger army like the imperial gaurd.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not. Capital ships in Star Wars are just not very strong even in-universe, let alone when measured against capital ships from different franchises. I mean, 3 small fighters were enough to take out an entire Super Star Destroyer in Return of the Jedi...

You mean the Super Star Destroyer that had one Rebel Cap Ship (possibly more) focussing fire on it? After all what was it that Ackbar said? Oh yeah, "Focus all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer."

 Elbows wrote:
I'm sure someone here is a big enough Star Wars person to explain the size of the Empire. While I'd give Star Wars my nod simply based on tech/speed/etc...if the Imperium outnumbers the Empire 10:1, then it's all pretty irrelevant.

Since the EU was scrapped, the size of the Empire is currently unspecified.
In the old EU it covered about half of the Star Wars galaxy, which would make it smaller than the Imperium which covers the entire Milky Way galaxy. Both galaxies are supposed to be roughly equal in size (100,000 ly across)

Well neither side have weapons designed by modern thought and both are lead by morons. Sounds like a draw to me.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not. Capital ships in Star Wars are just not very strong even in-universe, let alone when measured against capital ships from different franchises. I mean, 3 small fighters were enough to take out an entire Super Star Destroyer in Return of the Jedi...

You mean the Super Star Destroyer that had one Rebel Cap Ship (possibly more) focussing fire on it? After all what was it that Ackbar said? Oh yeah, "Focus all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer."

There was no rebel capital ship firing on it. Ackbar gave the order, and 2 A-wings complied by destroying the (massively exposed) bridge deflector shield with 2 shots, immediately after which an A-Wing lost control and rammed the bridge, sending the Super Star Destroyer to its doom. At no point was any Rebel capital ship involved. All it took was 3 A-wings. Ackbar does not specify to who exactly he is giving the order in the movie, so presumably the order was meant for the A-wing squadron, since we see do not see any other ships firing on the Super Star Destroyer. In fact, if you look closely out of the window during the scene on the bridge of the Super Star Destroyer, we see the Rebel capital ships (including Ackbar's flagship) firing on the other Star Destroyers rather than on the Super Star Destroyer.

Martel732 wrote:
Well neither side have weapons designed by modern thought and both are lead by morons. Sounds like a draw to me.

This really. 40k is Age of Sail in Space with everything made 2000x larger, while Star Wars is 1944 naval/air battles in Space.

Neither really works terribly well once basic realism is factored in, and theres not much basis to compare.

The Shadows win. They win fights they aren't even in. Because purple death beams that don't miss and one-shot everything work. Hyphen lasers and unguided torpedoes don't.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
There was no rebel capital ship firing on it. Ackbar gave the order, and 2 A-wings complied by destroying the (massively exposed) bridge deflector shield with 2 shots, immediately after which an A-Wing lost control and rammed the bridge, sending the Super Star Destroyer to its doom. At no point was any Rebel capital ship involved. All it took was 3 A-wings. Ackbar does not specify to who exactly he is giving the order in the movie, so presumably the order was meant for the A-wing squadron, since we see do not see any other ships firing on the Super Star Destroyer. In fact, if you look closely out of the window during the scene on the bridge of the Super Star Destroyer, we see the Rebel capital ships (including Ackbar's flagship) firing on the other Star Destroyers rather than on the Super Star Destroyer.

In Star Wars we never see anyone using the bathroom, therefore all the "humans" are actually highly evolved beings which are above mere concepts like excreting waste products. Alternatively, it is possible for events to happen off-camera in a movie. I mean, which is more likely, that the rebel fleet entirely ignores Ackbar's orders and doesn't fire on the Executor, or that they do fire (not shown on camera for budget reasons) and the a-wings are only part of the attack? Of course the novelization makes this clear: the rebel capital ships attack the Executor and inflict heavy damage, the fighter attack merely knocks out the bridge and sends it into a fatal collision with the death star.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Vader can read minds. He will know the bullets they shoot are explosive and either take the guns before they can react because he is a force user and that is what they do, or he can just reflect the shots back at them and they get hit and killed. Or just snap their necks before they hit the trigger. Smash the guns with the force. Take your pick.

Where is the canon to suggest this level of power?

Vader is capable of this level on nonsense, but it would actually have to occur to him to think to do it. It would also tax his limits to be in a combat trance, to react first, read multiple minds, interpret those thoughts, make multiple uses of telekenisis.
It's much simpler for him to simply deflect incoming fire with his lightsaber, which is why he does so.

The Star Wars RPG by WEG, was considered cannon, for all the expanded universe writers, up until the prequils were a thing. It had detailed rules for what force users could accomplish, and writers were instructed to use the RPG material as core material to work from, according to Timothy Zahn.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not. Capital ships in Star Wars are just not very strong even in-universe, let alone when measured against capital ships from different franchises. I mean, 3 small fighters were enough to take out an entire Super Star Destroyer in Return of the Jedi...

You mean the Super Star Destroyer that had one Rebel Cap Ship (possibly more) focussing fire on it? After all what was it that Ackbar said? Oh yeah, "Focus all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer."

Ackbar was the fleet commander. I assumed that meant the entire rebel fleet was hitting it