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Martel732 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I like a lot of armies, so it is hard for me to pick just one and since it doesn't really make a difference I will just make a post about my most played.

Tyranids: When people complaining about MCs being so overpowered next to vehicles I often just sigh and want to make a long post about how only CERTAIN MCs are really the problem, but I know that it will just get shouted down cause Flyrants are a thing...I wish that most of my units weren't just horrible. Warriors, Raveners, Haruspex, Genestealers, Primes, Tyrannofex, etc. So much of the codex is just terrible and there is very little coherency in the units themselves. It is also one of the armies that exist in the old paradigm that any buff must be offset by a flaw, IB is along the lines of Mob Rule and forced challenges/boon table. It is a super minor buff with a major downside. Also, we need a Decurion style detachment. There are six elites choices and only three elite slots, I would love to run Pyrovores despite how bad they are but that would mean giving up Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, or Lictors. Tyranids are the only army where I struggle with filling out my points because I start to run out of Force Org.

Orks: Why no special weapons? Why no invul saves? Why such awful melee units? Why does a nob with a power klaw cost more than a meganob? Why are there so many damned HQ choices and no formations that allow me to run them?! I want to have a painboy, a warboss, and two weirdboys but I can't do it unless I run double cad. Painboys should be like Meqs and be a one per HQ or something like that or at least let me take lesser HQs as apart of our "Decurion" formation. New models would be nice too for some things like Tankbustas and Kommandos.

Sisters of Battle: Some new models please.

Chaos: More Traitors Legion with better rules and I will be happy. Also new models.

So which MC can immobilize itself on a shrub and which one can be one-shotted by melta?

The dreadnought?

 wuestenfux wrote:
For me as an Eldar player, its the lack of a dedicated cc unit.
There are several Aspects but none really dedicated to cc.

Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Avatar, and Wraithblades are almost pure CC while Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Harlequins, Wraithlord, and the melee build for the Wrathknight are basically there to only CC as well. I don't see how Eldar lack for melee and they have probably the best melee unit in the game with the Wraithknight.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Eldar: A mixture of poor internal balance and terrible people. The Codex is a stew of grossly overpowered units, good units, mediocre units, and terrible units, and yet it produces a constant stream of people telling me I'm a terrible person and my Codex obviously needs to be made unplayable for reasons ranging from blaming d***bags bringing tournament lists to a casual setting on the Codex rather than the d***bag, to the horrendous unfairness of another Codex doing something better than Space Marines do. I like the aesthetic. I like the army. I got into this game because of them. Yet every time I try to take them to the table this edition I either steamroll without contest or get steamrolled without contest, and every time I try to discuss it I end up under a barrage of insults.

For starters the Eldar Codex does not have "Mediocre" or "Terrible units" what you consider mediocre and terrible other codex's would consider elite or at worst they would be considered slightly above average. The problem you have is that your entire codex is anywhere from 10-50% under costed. Scat Bikes, Wraith Knights, Warp Spiders and psychic shenanigans are just the worst offenders of that problem.

As for what is my least favorite thing about my Ork army? I would have to say my least favorite thing is the Codex. I know that is very vague and all but realistically there is not a singe unit in that codex that is able to compete in 7th edition tournaments or competitive play. Our best unit is arguably our Warbikers who are considered the best only because they are probably the closest unit in the codex to being appropriately priced. We have highly specialized units like Burna Boyz and Tank Bustas but they have no armor, are over priced and rely on Open Topped transports to get close enough to do any damage, and when the OT vehicle explodes (Which happens more often then not) we lose half the squad inside.

 Vash108 wrote:
I wish you can take an apothecary in other units or it was a IC type choice you can put in other squads.

Agreed! You can take an apothecary in tactical squads with the Red Scorpions Chapter Tactics, but that's about it.

I like how the FW Horus Heresy List handles apothecaries.

Tyranids - I hate IB. Also, it would be nice if the little bugs could do _something_ to vehicles and dreadnoughts if they attack en masse.

 Vankraken wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
For me as an Eldar player, its the lack of a dedicated cc unit.
There are several Aspects but none really dedicated to cc.

Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Avatar, and Wraithblades are almost pure CC while Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Harlequins, Wraithlord, and the melee build for the Wrathknight are basically there to only CC as well. I don't see how Eldar lack for melee and they have probably the best melee unit in the game with the Wraithknight.

Eldar have no way of reliably getting those units into favorable close combats, save the WK. Eldar do not lack decent melee units, but only 1 of them can get into CC against a competent opponent. The others are too slow and/or too squishy.

But this highlights a point that other Eldar players here have made. Eldar have good units overall and the only codex with no "bad" units, but because other units are so much better, the internal balance is off.
A good example is the Scatter laser, Shuricannon and Star cannon. There is an obvious "best" choice and there shouldn't be.

I am also tired of being TFG just because I continue to play the army I started in 4th ed and I don't even run full on OP units in casual games. But because 1, yes only 1, on my Windriders per unit have a Scatter Laser and I own a WK, I'm a WAAC player that needs to be shamed. Please note that this thankfully isn't the case at my LGS, because 90% of the guys I play with are awesome and not D-bags.
But the internet hate pisses me off. It is not my fault that GW gave my army better tools than every other army. If you want to complain about Eldar, fine, but don't complain about the PLAYERS until you play them. And discuss the games before hand. Don't wanna play against a WK? FIne, ask the player if he's ok with that, or suggest that he trade out the D-cannons for Inferno Lances for the small price increase to get the Skatach WK. Talk with your opponent before you turn you nose up and refuse them games.

So I guess my least favorite thing about my army is the response of the players. Both the community that hates Eldar just for being Eldar and the Eldar players that refuse to tone down their lists in casual games and perpetuate the TFG stereotype.

-

I wish I could use my baneblade, without it getting murdered, my wallet, and the point system

Martel732 wrote:


So which MC can immobilize itself on a shrub and which one can be one-shotted by melta?

Those two qualities do not necessarily make something overpowered. You could give tactical terminators immunity to melta and have them ignore dangerous and difficult terrain, and that wouldn't suddenly make them overpowered/undercosted. MC's having advantages over walkers doesn't automatically make them overpowered if they have trade offs such as less killing potential or higher points costs (which many tyranid MC's do). Jump infantry, for instance, have superior mobility to basic infantry. Does this make them overpowered too by that logic?

SemperMortis wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Eldar: A mixture of poor internal balance and terrible people. The Codex is a stew of grossly overpowered units, good units, mediocre units, and terrible units, and yet it produces a constant stream of people telling me I'm a terrible person and my Codex obviously needs to be made unplayable for reasons ranging from blaming d***bags bringing tournament lists to a casual setting on the Codex rather than the d***bag, to the horrendous unfairness of another Codex doing something better than Space Marines do. I like the aesthetic. I like the army. I got into this game because of them. Yet every time I try to take them to the table this edition I either steamroll without contest or get steamrolled without contest, and every time I try to discuss it I end up under a barrage of insults.

For starters the Eldar Codex does not have "Mediocre" or "Terrible units" what you consider mediocre and terrible other codex's would consider elite or at worst they would be considered slightly above average. The problem you have is that your entire codex is anywhere from 10-50% under costed. Scat Bikes, Wraith Knights, Warp Spiders and psychic shenanigans are just the worst offenders of that problem.

As for what is my least favorite thing about my Ork army? I would have to say my least favorite thing is the Codex. I know that is very vague and all but realistically there is not a singe unit in that codex that is able to compete in 7th edition tournaments or competitive play. Our best unit is arguably our Warbikers who are considered the best only because they are probably the closest unit in the codex to being appropriately priced. We have highly specialized units like Burna Boyz and Tank Bustas but they have no armor, are over priced and rely on Open Topped transports to get close enough to do any damage, and when the OT vehicle explodes (Which happens more often then not) we lose half the squad inside.

I see I'm not the only one who thinks this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chalkobob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


So which MC can immobilize itself on a shrub and which one can be one-shotted by melta?

Those two qualities do not necessarily make something overpowered. You could give tactical terminators immunity to melta and have them ignore dangerous and difficult terrain, and that wouldn't suddenly make them overpowered/undercosted. MC's having advantages over walkers doesn't automatically make them overpowered if they have trade offs such as less killing potential or higher points costs (which many tyranid MC's do). Jump infantry, for instance, have superior mobility to basic infantry. Does this make them overpowered too by that logic?

The rarity of ranged instant death makes MCs far too durable for their cost. At least the FAQ smacked down their cover option. T6 is an extremely valuable stat in 7th ed and MCs underpay for it. MCs have a gakload of killing potential. That's the problem . Tyranid MCs are less overpowered, but compared to any vehicle, they are a steal.

 Galef wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
For me as an Eldar player, its the lack of a dedicated cc unit.
There are several Aspects but none really dedicated to cc.

Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Avatar, and Wraithblades are almost pure CC while Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Harlequins, Wraithlord, and the melee build for the Wrathknight are basically there to only CC as well. I don't see how Eldar lack for melee and they have probably the best melee unit in the game with the Wraithknight.

Eldar have no way of reliably getting those units into favorable close combats, save the WK. Eldar do not lack decent melee units, but only 1 of them can get into CC against a competent opponent. The others are too slow and/or too squishy.

Ally in some Dark Eldar transports (start on foot behind the boats, load up turn 1 and zoom down the field jinking all the way) and you now have your melee units in one of the better assault capable transports in the game.

That my army is inexplicably split into two books, that obviously are meant to be one cohesive army and there is literally zero logic behind having them split into two so that rules don't mesh between them. Two half armies. Skitarii and Cult Mech. WTF GW.

...and where are my damn transports that every single other army has?

 Vankraken wrote:

Ally in some Dark Eldar transports (start on foot behind the boats, load up turn 1 and zoom down the field jinking all the way) and you now have your melee units in one of the better assault capable transports in the game.

Sure, we could do that. And EVERY single other army could include a CAD of Eldar with Scatterbikes and a WK. That doesn't mean that now every other army is "OP top-tier fixed".

I am not saying Eldar NEED a dedicated assault transport, just that their cc choices are not good enough *by themselves* to be considered "dedicated melee units".
It's a legit complaint, especially when you consider that it would open up OTHER options in the codex and thereby reduce the amount of "those" units every competitive list has.
I would have preferred "those OP" units to be less effective to begin with, but sadly I didn't write the codex.

Danny slag wrote:
That my army is inexplicably split into two books, that obviously are meant to be one cohesive army and there is literally zero logic behind having them split into two so that rules don't mesh between them. Two half armies. Skitarii and Cult Mech. WTF GW.

Ya know, this is becoming an increasingly big issue with most armies. Necrons are the only army I can think of that doesn't require more than 1 codex to play the whole army, and even they have FW options and 1 detachment from the BA/Nid campaign book.

Technically Eldar are still "1 codex", but as mentioned above, they benefit too much from Allies, of which they have 2 good ones.
I fear the days of 1 BRB, 1 codex being all you need to play are gone.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
For me as an Eldar player, its the lack of a dedicated cc unit.
There are several Aspects but none really dedicated to cc.

Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Avatar, and Wraithblades are almost pure CC while Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Harlequins, Wraithlord, and the melee build for the Wrathknight are basically there to only CC as well. I don't see how Eldar lack for melee and they have probably the best melee unit in the game with the Wraithknight.

Eldar have no way of reliably getting those units into favorable close combats, save the WK. Eldar do not lack decent melee units, but only 1 of them can get into CC against a competent opponent. The others are too slow and/or too squishy.

But this highlights a point that other Eldar players here have made. Eldar have good units overall and the only codex with no "bad" units, but because other units are so much better, the internal balance is off.
A good example is the Scatter laser, Shuricannon and Star cannon. There is an obvious "best" choice and there shouldn't be.

I am also tired of being TFG just because I continue to play the army I started in 4th ed and I don't even run full on OP units in casual games. But because 1, yes only 1, on my Windriders per unit have a Scatter Laser and I own a WK, I'm a WAAC player that needs to be shamed. Please note that this thankfully isn't the case at my LGS, because 90% of the guys I play with are awesome and not D-bags.
But the internet hate pisses me off. It is not my fault that GW gave my army better tools than every other army. If you want to complain about Eldar, fine, but don't complain about the PLAYERS until you play them. And discuss the games before hand. Don't wanna play against a WK? FIne, ask the player if he's ok with that, or suggest that he trade out the D-cannons for Inferno Lances for the small price increase to get the Skatach WK. Talk with your opponent before you turn you nose up and refuse them games.

So I guess my least favorite thing about my army is the response of the players. Both the community that hates Eldar just for being Eldar and the Eldar players that refuse to tone down their lists in casual games and perpetuate the TFG stereotype.

-

I disagree on Scorpions as anything infiltrating has a pretty good chance of getting into combat with something it may win against. As well, just because Shining Spears are meh doesn't mean they don't have the speed to do that task. Harlequins got their own thing going on.

Otherwise the other things need allied Raiders to steal for a turn.

Daemons - that the core codex can basically cripple my own army Turn 1. Yes, I can take Fateweaver and what not to mitigate the chances of this happening, but the fact that Daemons can auto-kill half their army because of a bad Warpstorm roll is infuriating.

Dark Angels - Only a couple things, now that we have Grav, but in short:

-Deathwing are unplayable and still pretty darn weak

-Ravenwing gets all the love. I'm happy to see the DA on top, but it's only because of the Ravenwing

-The new Overwatch rule is cool, but where is my Plasma specialty??? It talks all the time in the fluff about DA using Plasma explicitly, it's their go to choice, why not let their Chapter Tactic be re-rolls of Gets Hot!?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Lack of a big nasty Slaanesh GD when every other god gets one.
Not that a KoS is too viable now anyway. Blah.

If you mean a model then the Khorne one from forge world doesn't come with wings, annoyingly, so you have to get wings from elsewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
World Eaters legion tactics invalidating Berzerkers, and Berzerkers in general.

Martel732 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


So which MC can immobilize itself on a shrub and which one can be one-shotted by melta?

Those two qualities do not necessarily make something overpowered. You could give tactical terminators immunity to melta and have them ignore dangerous and difficult terrain, and that wouldn't suddenly make them overpowered/undercosted. MC's having advantages over walkers doesn't automatically make them overpowered if they have trade offs such as less killing potential or higher points costs (which many tyranid MC's do). Jump infantry, for instance, have superior mobility to basic infantry. Does this make them overpowered too by that logic?

The rarity of ranged instant death makes MCs far too durable for their cost. At least the FAQ smacked down their cover option. T6 is an extremely valuable stat in 7th ed and MCs underpay for it. MCs have a gakload of killing potential. That's the problem . Tyranid MCs are less overpowered, but compared to any vehicle, they are a steal.

Way to prove the point about being shouted down Martel - I can name a couple of MCs in the Tyranid army that can't hurt a Dreadnought, can you name a Tyranid that can't be hurt by a Dread? This is where context becomes important.
Tyranid MCs are proper melee MCs in 7th edition, their ranged weaponry is stupidly expensive and rubbish to boot, as is the rest of Tyranid ranged weaponry.
The problem with MCs is when they're put in armies they don't belong in like Eldar and Tau, then given proper ranged options and higher mobility to boot.

AD Mech - Army faction specific roles spread across three books, along with formation rules mentioned in WD.

Militarum Tempestus - Elite units with no dedicated CC squad, all the while being forced to take a CC weapon which limits the effective shooting range/damage of an already small squad. Also doubling S3 is pretty weak, especially since they will probably be dead come their turn to attack anyway.

One mooooooorreeee thing. And this isn't for armies I play but it bugs me nonetheless.

Harlequins can only be included if you have minimum 15 infantry, 4 bikes and a vehicle. Some death masque formations are alright but they're too specific in their loadouts. But I can't even have say: Shadowseer, 5 Troupe and a transport like a NORMAL allied list? What if I just want 2 squads of Troupes because I want to spend points on bikes?

Cult Mech and Skittari are the same way. Why are the force organization options just so awful?

edit: ok it seems harlequins have a few more formations I weren't aware of that seem......alright, but the base force org is still trash. I do still feel sorry for Cult Mech/Skittari players though.

Unusable bullgryns/ogryns and barely any new models for IG

Necrons

The lack of a Titan. I want one now and it needs to be a skimmer so it can jink! One more thing, it better be made of fraking metal!!!

So I guess my least favorite thing about my army is the response of the players. Both the community that hates Eldar just for being Eldar and the Eldar players that refuse to tone down their lists in casual games and perpetuate the TFG stereotype.

This here. I retract my earlier statement, and replace it with this. A thousand times this. The Eldar book is only "undercosted" and "OP" on three pages. Stop whining about how the Wraithknights touched you in the naughty place, and talk to your opponent before hand, like the game is meant to be played. I get that the opponent shouldn't bring cheese to a pick up game, but if you aren't going to get a game unless you play against the big scary Eldar, your local meta is not big enough to justify not communicating to your opponents you don't want to play against cheese ahead of time*.

*In 90% of cases. Of course, if a new guys walks in with two wraithknights, and a bunch of scat bikes, then just skip the game that week(or just play them, if you are a good sport and all that), and get their phone/facebook/steam/whatever, so you guys can communicate.

Eldar: I should not complain, but as another poster pointed out one would play the melee units more in a better meta and with a mean to deliver them. I like Eldars for the Aspect warriors.

Tempestus: Overcosted Taurox Primes and their Overcosted options (like the vehicle, I have 6 converted, but is overcosted). I wish I had command squads and platoons, or at least, more orders lie the IG one that ignore covers.
Even with the current point cost for the units, a 3W HQ able to give 2 orders and 2W sergeants able to give junior orders to their units would do wonders.
Add Vendettas (and possibly Vultures), more orders from IG and you have an army still not strong but more fun.

I would appreciate the Eldar being closer to the fluff (including any required points cost adjustment of course).

Like for example, it would be cool if Eldrad were stronger than Tigurius, if we had something that beats an SM conclave, etc.

Even with the runes, and even playing them RAW (i.e. rerolling your opponent's dice too if you want), the Eldar are hardly the best Psykers in game and that sucks.

Same goes for just about everything in the Eldar fluff.... they're 100+ years old highly trained warriors who walk the path all day every day, and they've got CC4, like nearly every random thing out there.

At least the Aspect formation gives them some credit there -


As some other Eldar player noted: all the rage against Eldar.... it's ridiculous when almost every codex except the worst of all (Dark Eldar) have a decent chance against a non-competitive list.

In general, any rage directed towards players is really terrible, but I feel it's even more unjustified when said players stuck with Eldar through bad editions.

The FOTM power players are fine too, they just have to stick to playing with other competitive players that's all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:
Necrons

The lack of a Titan. I want one now and it needs to be a skimmer so it can jink! One more thing, it better be made of fraking metal!!!

I've got a few super heavy skimmers... bad news, they don't jink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar do not lack decent melee units, but only 1 of them can get into CC against a competent opponent. The others are too slow and/or too squishy.

But this highlights a point that other Eldar players here have made. Eldar have good units overall and the only codex with no "bad" units, but because other units are so much better, the internal balance is off.

First of all, which Eldar unit is decent in melee ??? I feel like your definition of decent is "able to kill non melee units".
Even non melee units can easily kill Eldar melee units in my experience ... and I've tried the new Scorpions with 2+ cover save in a very soft meta.

And yes there are very bad units in Codex: Craftworlds, the Fire Prism has aged very badly, Rangers are garbage, our CC units are a joke, Wraithguard by itself is still vastly overcosted / too fragile, only being offset by one-shot shenanigans with Wave Serpents.

Either way, Eldar is just *one* of the top codex, so it would make sense to see as much bashing of the other top codexes - where can we find that ?


For sure, we've got excellent units like the Warp Spider, the Scatbikes and the Wraithknight, but remove those three and we'd drop from tier 1 to tier 3.
Actually, if you just remove the massed S6 from the WS and Scatbikes, we'd drop to tier 2 or worse already.

That doesn't sound like a "no bad units codex" to me.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
For me as an Eldar player, its the lack of a dedicated cc unit.
There are several Aspects but none really dedicated to cc.

What are Banshees and Scorpions?

Indeed, they are dedicated cc units, but they shouldn't be in cc against anything better than Guardsmen.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, they are dedicated cc units, but they shouldn't be in cc against anything better than Guardsmen.

They are like the Leman Russ Battle Tank. Another victim of the general power creep.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, they are dedicated cc units, but they shouldn't be in cc against anything better than Guardsmen.

They are like the Leman Russ Battle Tank. Another victim of the general power creep.

Except the Leman Russ Battle Tank does not suck balls.

It has 14 front armor, can hide behind an Aegis line and have some decent firepower.

Yes, it's slightly expensive but it does not plain suck. It makes no sense to compare a Leman Russ to Banshees.

Orks: too fragile army without being extremely good in close combat or in the shooting phase, not to mention the pyschic phase. We need some 3-4+ invluns for the warbosses and some av12 vehicles that can be taken as dedicated transports. Also a formation that allows free trukks would be great, the SM have a similar one.

Space wolves: we lack performing shooty units, but with the new formations (the w.brotherhood and the murderpack) i can't complain, i think wolves are balanced.

Dark Eldar: we need everything!!!! no psykers, no low, nothing really killy in close combat or in the shooting phase while all army is extremely fragile. Again a formation that allows free transports would help a lot.

I don't have a massive amount to complain about tabletop or model wise for my Ultramarines. I'd say an actual model for Agemman would be good since my collection comprised of 1st and 2nd Company units. That being said, I understand why we don't have one since, as 1st co Captain, he'd need a model in Terminator AND Power/artificer armour.

Before anyone mentions it, I know the Get Started box Terminator Captain is meant to be Agemman but I'd like to have a specific model.

In terms of game play I'd like the Ultras STRICT adherence to the Codex Astartes to be properly represented in rules. Something that provides a buff but with an added restriction to represent their inability to adapt outside of the teachings of the Codex to make me feel like I am held back a bit. How that would work I don't know but the way my marines operate on the tabletop doesn't feel like a proper representation of their attitudes in the fluff.

And while I'm on the topic of fluff, one of the other things that irritates me about my Chapter is their now near invincibility in the lore. This has been a bit of a snowball effect to a point now where especially main characters have reached nigh God status. I would like to have also seen more political manoeuvring by the captains of each company against each other (ie. Agemman sourcing allies amongst other Company Captains against the perceived threat of Sicarius riding the cult following he has within certain sections of the Chapter, maybe all whilst Calgar has fallen into a state of suspended animation from a near fatal wounding without having properly named an heir).

As for my Sisters of Battle, it's simple. More model variety please.

Dark Angels - The way the formations try to force you to buy all your tanks in squadrons of 3. Hard to see it as anything other than a money-grab, and it's annoying that a Tactical Company can't take along a mix of Predators and Whirlwinds for support.

Chaos - The random Chaos boon table. Also that my Warp Talons, who have claws sharp enough to rip apart the very fabric of reality, are only AP3.

Imperial Guard - Finding ways to transport them.

Eldar - As mentioned by others, the weird community reaction to them.

 Asmodai wrote:

Eldar - As mentioned by others, the weird community reaction to them.

I was going to type of this long winded story/rant about my experience with Eldar players in my local community but I didn't want to come across as being a jerk. Basically I will put it that a fair number of Eldar players come across as power gamers who pretend to not be that and will act like their Codex isn't a top tier codex. 6th Edition there was a ton of Wave Serpent spam and the story from these Eldar players was complaints that the other stuff in the codex is lackluster and Eldar needed those Wave Serpents to compete. Fast forward to 7th where most everything in the codex got a buff while Serpents got nerfed and you then see Jet Bikes all with Scatter Lasers, D Scythes with the token Dark Eldar HQ using a webway portal, and boatloads of Warp Spiders. Again its the whole song and dance about how outside of those few power units Eldar isn't that good and those other units just can't function or when a formation requires them that they are a tax unit. Hear enough of it and it makes you become jaded towards Eldar players especially when they complain about certain things not being very good.