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I've noticed a weird thing about lore discussions on Dakka recently.

You guys treat canon and fan theories like they're the same thing. You debate canon like it's a fan theory. You debate fan theories like they're canon. You debate the two against each other like they're interchangeable.

This kind of thinking would explain the undue emphasis you guys place on rumors in regards to the release schedule, but I wonder why it's happening to begin with.

Please explain what's going on, because this is beyond weird.

No idea. Can you link some examples?

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
No idea. Can you link some examples?

Sure.

How many posts do you want me to link as examples?

Kinda need to set an upper limit on how many links I should provide.

That's because there's a lot of vague things going on, so there are different interpretations.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's because there's a lot of vague things going on, so there are different interpretations.

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

 TedNugent wrote:
Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

You may notice I said that before learning that people argued about which version of canon to accept.

 TedNugent wrote:
Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

Exalted.

 Grimskul wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

Exalted.

You know, if you don't like my posts, there's an Ignore button you could use.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

Exalted.

You know, if you don't like my posts, there's an Ignore button you could use.

Nah, no thanks, I'm fine. Thanks for the offer though.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

Exalted.

You know, if you don't like my posts, there's an Ignore button you could use.

Nah, no thanks, I'm fine. Thanks for the offer though.

It was a suggestion, not an offer.

I would very much appreciate it if you were to never respond to any of my posts ever again. It would improve my experience on this forum.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Gr8 thread

 Pouncey wrote:

I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.

 Pouncey wrote:

Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

Exalted.

You know, if you don't like my posts, there's an Ignore button you could use.

Nah, no thanks, I'm fine. Thanks for the offer though.

It was a suggestion, not an offer.

I would very much appreciate it if you were to never respond to any of my posts ever again. It would improve my experience on this forum.

Then don't create bad posts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't create bad posts.

If I knew they were bad, I wouldn't create them.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't create bad posts.

If I knew they were bad, I wouldn't create them.

Self awareness goes a long way, as the guy proclaiming to be the Nuge partially pointed out.
Some of us REALLY digest the lore for every single book.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't create bad posts.

If I knew they were bad, I wouldn't create them.

Self awareness goes a long way, as the guy proclaiming to be the Nuge partially pointed out.
Some of us REALLY digest the lore for every single book.

And personally I learned about a lot of WH40k lore, really got into the lore for my army, read one WH40k novel and decided to stick to, like, actually good books, by reputable authors, whenever I want to read for fun.

 Pouncey wrote:
Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

If you don't like discussions/arguments over fluff then you're always free to not participate in them. The fluff section of the forum is pretty clearly labeled and you should have no problem avoiding it.

 Pouncey wrote:
I've noticed a weird thing about lore discussions on Dakka recently.

You guys treat canon and fan theories like they're the same thing. You debate canon like it's a fan theory. You debate fan theories like they're canon. You debate the two against each other like they're interchangeable.

This kind of thinking would explain the undue emphasis you guys place on rumors in regards to the release schedule, but I wonder why it's happening to begin with.

Please explain what's going on, because this is beyond weird.

I'll try.

40k is written by committee. There is no central plan, no organization, and no final arbiter of what is and isn't canon. There are broad guidelines, a few cornerstones that are pretty much always true, but no single solid foundation on which to build.

Over the course of edition changes as lore gets rewritten bits and peices get lost, found, woven back in, changed, and contradict other bits of lore. Sometimes players are okay with this. Sometimes they get mad. I'm going to bring an example out that may trigger residual anger but it's such a perfect illustration of this I can't really avoid it: the 5th edition Grey Knights Codex. In 3rd Edition there were three thousand Grey Knights serving as a specialist daemon-slaying force strongly aligned with the Inquisition. They were powerful psykers, highly secret, led by a cabal of twelve Grand Masters and guided by their divinations, and were deployed to face down the strongest daemonic incursions. 5th comes along, and suddenly there are eight hundred Grey Knights led by Samurai Jack, who massacre their allies to paint their already strongly warded armour in blood so they can ward themselves against Chaos, and who represent the sole military force of the Inquisition.

When lore changes like this happen some players say to themselves "No. This is stupid. My Grey Knight army doesn't perform Khornate rituals and we don't answer to Samurai Jack." And as years go by and some lore becomes stupider, and some gets fixed, every player develops their own set of which pieces of information they take as canon and which they reject.

And the whole mess is inherently inconsistent, for a few reasons: first, the lore in each book is presented to play up one army over the rest because it's trying to sell that army. Everyone's got a metric ton of plot armour in their own books, but becomes cannon fodder in someone else's. Second, because a big part of the tone of 40k is that everyone's firing blind and nobody really knows what's going on, the writers intentionally leave a lot of the underpinnings of the setting ambiguous. What is the Emperor? How do Acts of Faith work? What are Daemons made of? Why do non-psychic Necrons seem to have the ability to affect the Warp strongly? Where did the Tau come from? GW drops hints, but since different writers are working from their own interpretation of how things work their hints point different directions.

So we each have our own personal 'canon', which isn't any more right or wrong than anyone else's and doesn't represent the totality of 'official canon' in any way. And not understanding this we come on forums like this, try to make a point by referencing our own personal canon, and get startled when other people laugh, and angrily accuse them of placing their personal headcanon over the 'real canon'.

There is no 'real canon'. There is a set of facts GW gives us. What meaning you read into them comes from which bits you look at, not from a pattern in the whole thing.

Now as I write this and before the strawmanning comes out yes, there are things that are obviously not true. There is no twenty-first Primarch named Kevin, Lord of the Celestial Badger-Feet. There is no Craftworld where the inhabitants where fuzzy pink bearskins instead of helmets and walk like John Cleese. But unlike a setting with clearly defined canon where things are either true or false 40k canon has things that are true, things that are false, and things that are ambiguous. The point of the vagueness is to leave the players space to write their own armies and their own narratives. And if you try to tell someone else their narrative is wrong because it contradicts your narrative you've missed the point of the gaps quite badly.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Why not just agree to stop arguing about anything and each of us believe in our own personal version of the story?

It would save a lot of fruitless arguing.

If you don't like discussions/arguments over fluff then you're always free to not participate in them. The fluff section of the forum is pretty clearly labeled and you should have no problem avoiding it.

Actually I was kinda wondering why this forum is even a thing.

 Pouncey wrote:
Actually I was kinda wondering why this forum is even a thing.

Because, judging by the number of posts and threads in this forum, a lot of people do want to discuss the subject. You don't need to come in and tell everyone how we're wrong for wanting to talk about something you aren't interested in, just move along and go do something else.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't create bad posts.

If I knew they were bad, I wouldn't create them.

Self awareness goes a long way, as the guy proclaiming to be the Nuge partially pointed out.
Some of us REALLY digest the lore for every single book.

And personally I learned about a lot of WH40k lore, really got into the lore for my army, read one WH40k novel and decided to stick to, like, actually good books, by reputable authors, whenever I want to read for fun.

(The trick to finding the good Black Library authors is to find the ones who have written good original fiction. Dan Abnett wrote Embedded, Graham McNeill has written four licensed novels outside of Black Library. One is fantastic, the other's writing is a long slow slog through irrelevant babble. I invite you to guess which is which.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Actually I was kinda wondering why this forum is even a thing.

Because, judging by the number of posts and threads in this forum, a lot of people do want to discuss the subject. You don't need to come in and tell everyone how we're wrong for wanting to talk about something you aren't interested in, just move along and go do something else.

Yes, but, I mean, how can anyone disagree with each other when literally everyone's interpretation is correct?

Shouldn't every thread consist of the question, "How do you view (thing)?" and then every response is each person's individual perspective?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't create bad posts.

If I knew they were bad, I wouldn't create them.

Self awareness goes a long way, as the guy proclaiming to be the Nuge partially pointed out.
Some of us REALLY digest the lore for every single book.

And personally I learned about a lot of WH40k lore, really got into the lore for my army, read one WH40k novel and decided to stick to, like, actually good books, by reputable authors, whenever I want to read for fun.

(The trick to finding the good Black Library authors is to find the ones who have written good original fiction. Dan Abnett wrote Embedded, Graham McNeill has written four licensed novels outside of Black Library. One is fantastic, the other's writing is a long slow slog through irrelevant babble. I invite you to guess which is which.)

Generally I believe that the more reputable authors are in business for themselves writing stories of their own choosing, and having them published by reputable publishers, because they don't need to rely on being hired by a game company to make a living and can do better writing their own stuff.

 Pouncey wrote:
Generally I believe that the more reputable authors are in business for themselves writing stories of their own choosing, and having them published by reputable publishers, because they don't need to rely on being hired by a game company to make a living and can do better writing their own stuff.

That metric is both helpful and unhelpful at the same time, annoyingly. R.A. Salvatore is wildly successful and has written 20ish novels set in original worlds despite the fact that he can't string two words together, Keith Baker is a godd*** genius and yet everything he's had published has been through WotC. At the end of the day successful original works are an indicator, but the only way to actually tell is to sit down and read the thing.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Generally I believe that the more reputable authors are in business for themselves writing stories of their own choosing, and having them published by reputable publishers, because they don't need to rely on being hired by a game company to make a living and can do better writing their own stuff.

That metric is both helpful and unhelpful at the same time, annoyingly. R.A. Salvatore is wildly successful and has written 20ish novels set in original worlds despite the fact that he can't string two words together, Keith Baker is a godd*** genius and yet everything he's had published has been through WotC. At the end of the day successful original works are an indicator, but the only way to actually tell is to sit down and read the thing.

Are you implying that I have not read a wide variety of books in my life?

Also, Baen is my favorite sci-fi publisher. I particularly enjoyed the first four books of John Ringo's Posleen series. David Drake's Hammer's Slammers series has also been pretty fun to read.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Actually I was kinda wondering why this forum is even a thing.

Because, judging by the number of posts and threads in this forum, a lot of people do want to discuss the subject. You don't need to come in and tell everyone how we're wrong for wanting to talk about something you aren't interested in, just move along and go do something else.

Yes, but, I mean, how can anyone disagree with each other when literally everyone's interpretation is correct?

Nope it isn't. That there are multiple interpretations are possible doesn't mean that any interpretation is possible.
I know for sure that your furry brighthammer fluff for example is in direct contradiction with all of gw's fluff. This isn't bad it just shows that the standard 40k background isn't your thing and you might enjoy lets say for example infinity more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a real world example. There are different accounts for what went on on the battle fields of ancient Greece and usually tend to contradict each other. So historians can argue about how many men died when and where, or what weapons where used etc. This is both fun and can lead to new insights.
But not any interpretation is as valid for example you would be having a hard time arguing that the Spartans used death ray lasers borrowed from their alien friends to battle of the dino riders of Crete.

 Pouncey wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Generally I believe that the more reputable authors are in business for themselves writing stories of their own choosing, and having them published by reputable publishers, because they don't need to rely on being hired by a game company to make a living and can do better writing their own stuff.

That metric is both helpful and unhelpful at the same time, annoyingly. R.A. Salvatore is wildly successful and has written 20ish novels set in original worlds despite the fact that he can't string two words together, Keith Baker is a godd*** genius and yet everything he's had published has been through WotC. At the end of the day successful original works are an indicator, but the only way to actually tell is to sit down and read the thing.

Are you implying that I have not read a wide variety of books in my life?

Also, Baen is my favorite sci-fi publisher. I particularly enjoyed the first four books of John Ringo's Posleen series. David Drake's Hammer's Slammers series has also been pretty fun to read.

No, I'm lamenting that while it's a useful starting point sometimes it leads to missing things that would be cool.

Ringo...needs to have a talk with a therapist. He comes across as the result of crossing the creepiest bits of Heinlein with the creepiest bits of Tom Clancy. (I know I'm American but even we get tired of the 'rah rah go USA!' bulls*** sometimes.)

Who else is on the Baen list...Hey! Paksenarrion (Elizabeth Moon) is in here! And The High Crusade (Poul Anderson)! And Cobra (Timothy Zahn)! Will concur on Baen. Though the killer app to me is the Vorkosigan books (Lois McMaster Bujold).

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Actually I was kinda wondering why this forum is even a thing.

Because, judging by the number of posts and threads in this forum, a lot of people do want to discuss the subject. You don't need to come in and tell everyone how we're wrong for wanting to talk about something you aren't interested in, just move along and go do something else.

Yes, but, I mean, how can anyone disagree with each other when literally everyone's interpretation is correct?

Nope it isn't. That there are multiple interpretations are possible doesn't mean that any interpretation is possible.
I know for sure that your furry brighthammer fluff for example is in direct contradiction with all of gw's fluff. This isn't bad it just shows that the standard 40k background isn't your thing and you might enjoy lets say for example infinity more.

My furries are space aliens who fled from the Imperium and settled in another part of the galaxy beyond the Astronomican's Light. So now they defend their new homeworld against constant Ork invasions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Generally I believe that the more reputable authors are in business for themselves writing stories of their own choosing, and having them published by reputable publishers, because they don't need to rely on being hired by a game company to make a living and can do better writing their own stuff.

That metric is both helpful and unhelpful at the same time, annoyingly. R.A. Salvatore is wildly successful and has written 20ish novels set in original worlds despite the fact that he can't string two words together, Keith Baker is a godd*** genius and yet everything he's had published has been through WotC. At the end of the day successful original works are an indicator, but the only way to actually tell is to sit down and read the thing.

Are you implying that I have not read a wide variety of books in my life?

Also, Baen is my favorite sci-fi publisher. I particularly enjoyed the first four books of John Ringo's Posleen series. David Drake's Hammer's Slammers series has also been pretty fun to read.

No, I'm lamenting that while it's a useful starting point sometimes it leads to missing things that would be cool.

Ringo...needs to have a talk with a therapist. He comes across as the result of crossing the creepiest bits of Heinlein with the creepiest bits of Tom Clancy. (I know I'm American but even we get tired of the 'rah rah go USA!' bulls*** sometimes.)

Who else is on the Baen list...Hey! Paksenarrion (Elizabeth Moon) is in here! And The High Crusade (Poul Anderson)! And Cobra (Timothy Zahn)! Will concur on Baen. Though the killer app to me is the Vorkosigan books (Lois McMaster Bujold).

I once described the standard weapon used by his power armored infantry in the Posleen series to a friend.

After I did so, I spent several minutes contemplating the concept, laughing to myself and repeating the words "What the feth!" because of what an absurd concept it was for a military weapon.

 Pouncey wrote:
My furries are space aliens who fled from the Imperium and settled in another part of the galaxy beyond the Astronomican's Light. So now they defend their new homeworld against constant Ork invasions.

Like they said, not based on anything in GW's fluff. Your own fanfiction might be interesting to you, but that's very different from choosing between conflicting or ambiguous interpretations of GW's fluff.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
My furries are space aliens who fled from the Imperium and settled in another part of the galaxy beyond the Astronomican's Light. So now they defend their new homeworld against constant Ork invasions.

Like they said, not based on anything in GW's fluff. Your own fanfiction might be interesting to you, but that's very different from choosing between conflicting or ambiguous interpretations of GW's fluff.

Are you aware that I'm not trying to insist that anyone else accept my fanfiction faction as part of the standard 40k lore?

 Pouncey wrote:
Are you aware that I'm not trying to insist that anyone else accept my fanfiction faction as part of the standard 40k lore?

Good, because that would be a rather futile effort. What we're talking about is when you said this:

Yes, but, I mean, how can anyone disagree with each other when literally everyone's interpretation is correct?

The point is that it isn't true that everyone's interpretation is correct. There are ambiguous or contradictory pieces of fluff where there can be multiple valid interpretations, but that doesn't mean that anyone who makes up a 40k fluff idea is just as correct as everyone else. For example, there are multiple different interpretations of the Tau Ethereals and how they control the rest of the Tau Empire because GW has deliberately left it vague. Some people favor the interpretation that the Ethereals are using mind control (whether psychic or chemical), some favor the interpretation that it's really good propaganda and brainwashing, others favor the interpretation that the Ethereals are granted the respect they are due by willing followers because of their undisputed success in saving the Tau from themselves. And because GW has left it vague nobody can say conclusively that the others are wrong. But with something like your furrymarines or whatever they are there's nothing at all to support your personal version of the 40k fluff, and we can dismiss the whole idea as irrelevant fanfiction.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Are you aware that I'm not trying to insist that anyone else accept my fanfiction faction as part of the standard 40k lore?

Good, because that would be a rather futile effort. What we're talking about is when you said this:

Yes, but, I mean, how can anyone disagree with each other when literally everyone's interpretation is correct?

The point is that it isn't true that everyone's interpretation is correct. There are ambiguous or contradictory pieces of fluff where there can be multiple valid interpretations, but that doesn't mean that anyone who makes up a 40k fluff idea is just as correct as everyone else. For example, there are multiple different interpretations of the Tau Ethereals and how they control the rest of the Tau Empire because GW has deliberately left it vague. Some people favor the interpretation that the Ethereals are using mind control (whether psychic or chemical), some favor the interpretation that it's really good propaganda and brainwashing, others favor the interpretation that the Ethereals are granted the respect they are due by willing followers because of their undisputed success in saving the Tau from themselves. And because GW has left it vague nobody can say conclusively that the others are wrong. But with something like your furrymarines or whatever they are there's nothing at all to support your personal version of the 40k fluff, and we can dismiss the whole idea as irrelevant fanfiction.

Are you aware that I have always considered my personal armies to be fanfiction rather than canon?