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Came up in a game a few days ago: If a Daemon unit with an Icon of Chaos Deep Strikes, and then another Daemon unit Deep Strikes during the same turn (immediately afterwards,) does that second unit scatter? Or does the Icon immediately kick in?

Almost every piece of wargear that reduces the scatter of nearby friendly units specifies that said piece of wargear must be on the board in the prior turn to be used.
Except Daemon Icons.

I see no reason why the icon should not work immediately.
You can even put combo this with instruments to bring in an unit automatically and it not scatter.

 Galef wrote:
Almost every piece of wargear that reduces the scatter of nearby friendly units specifies that said piece of wargear must be on the board in the prior turn to be used.
Except Daemon Icons.

I think that's because Daemon Icons had their rules written in early 6th edition, though...

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Almost every piece of wargear that reduces the scatter of nearby friendly units specifies that said piece of wargear must be on the board in the prior turn to be used.
Except Daemon Icons.

I think that's because Daemon Icons had their rules written in early 6th edition, though...

So?

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Almost every piece of wargear that reduces the scatter of nearby friendly units specifies that said piece of wargear must be on the board in the prior turn to be used.
Except Daemon Icons.

I think that's because Daemon Icons had their rules written in early 6th edition, though...

So?

So, that could be an example of an old codex not including clarification text, but still having the same effect. To my understanding of the Deep Strike rules, all of the 'Deep Strike' results technically happen at the same time in 7th, so it's possible that the icon wouldn't count as being on the board when the other units Deep Strike.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Almost every piece of wargear that reduces the scatter of nearby friendly units specifies that said piece of wargear must be on the board in the prior turn to be used.
Except Daemon Icons.

I think that's because Daemon Icons had their rules written in early 6th edition, though...

Even in 6th edition, pretty much every wargear stated that it had to be on the table at the start of the turn to work. Except Chaos Icons.

AND the previous Daemon codex HAD the wording that the Icon needed to be on the board in the prior turn.
The fact that the text was REMOVED should suggest something.

Isn't there a basic rule that disallows them from using special rules that work at the start of the turn from working if the unit arrived from Reserves that Turn, and has been in place since 6th Edition?

From Moving On From Reserves:

...A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

 Charistoph wrote:
Isn't there a basic rule that disallows them from using special rules that work at the start of the turn from working if the unit arrived from Reserves that Turn, and has been in place since 6th Edition?

From Moving On From Reserves:

...A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

Yeah but Icons don't say they must be used at the start of the turn

When does it stop being "the start of the turn"? Is that ever defined?
Rolling for reserves is clearly at the start of the turn, but is performing the actual Deep Strike still the start of the turn, or is it "at the beginning of the Movement phase"?

I feel like we need to agree on the above answers before we can agree on whether the Icon can be used.

Personally, I would argue that "at the start of the turn" precedes "at the beginning of the Movement Phase", but I need to check my BRB before I commit to that.

-

'The Start and End of a Turn' (main rulebook, pg. 17).

 Galef wrote:
AND the previous Daemon codex HAD the wording that the Icon needed to be on the board in the prior turn.
The fact that the text was REMOVED should suggest something.

Like Ghaz seems to allude, it may have been superseded by the BRB

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Isn't there a basic rule that disallows them from using special rules that work at the start of the turn from working if the unit arrived from Reserves that Turn, and has been in place since 6th Edition?

From Moving On From Reserves:

...A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

Yeah but Icons don't say they must be used at the start of the turn

What do Icons do?

When is that done?

 Charistoph wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Isn't there a basic rule that disallows them from using special rules that work at the start of the turn from working if the unit arrived from Reserves that Turn, and has been in place since 6th Edition?

From Moving On From Reserves:

...A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

Yeah but Icons don't say they must be used at the start of the turn

What do Icons do?

When is that done?

yes icons can be used at the start of the turn. But they don't say they MUST be used at the start of the turn so your quoted rule doesn't apply

 CrownAxe wrote:
es icons can be used at the start of the turn. But they don't say they MUST be used at the start of the turn so your quoted rule doesn't apply

Aside from Conjuring, when must they Deep Strike?

 Charistoph wrote:

Aside from Conjuring, when must they Deep Strike?

At the start of the Movement phase... which may no longer be considered the "start of the turn"

But like I said earlier, I need to read the page Ghaz quoted to back up, or retract, the above statement.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Aside from Conjuring, when must they Deep Strike?

At the start of the Movement phase... which may no longer be considered the "start of the turn"

But like I said earlier, I need to read the page Ghaz quoted to back up, or retract, the above statement.

-

The Start and End of a Turn - Rulebook wrote:During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase.

 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Aside from Conjuring, when must they Deep Strike?

At the start of the Movement phase... which may no longer be considered the "start of the turn"

But like I said earlier, I need to read the page Ghaz quoted to back up, or retract, the above statement.

-

Not entirely correct. They are deployed when Arriving From Reserves.

Admittedly that is in the grey area of "Start of the Turn" and "Movement Phase" that gets confusing.

Your Roll for Reserves at the Start of the Turn. When Reserves arrive (after rolling for all Reserved units), pick one of the arriving units and deploy it, and son on until they are all on the table. Movement of all units not Arriving From Reserves must wait until they finish Arriving.

So... yeah, it can be considered either as part of the Start of the Turn or part of the Movement Phase, depending on personal interpretations.

Last I remember.... codex rules supersede BRB rules when applied to specific models or a certain ruling (Basic vs Advanced)

Also... i did just noticed that they did remove that in the codex while the last one did indeed said it had to be on the turn before

I guess most people didnt notice that and so never bothered to question it

Nice catch btw..... definetly going to use this to my advantage

(Note: The khorne daemonkin banner of blood, which is just a Icon of chaos with khorne alignment actually has the same rulling... so this isnt a one off thing and yes this is also in a 7th edition codex)

 Charistoph wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
es icons can be used at the start of the turn. But they don't say they MUST be used at the start of the turn so your quoted rule doesn't apply

Aside from Conjuring, when must they Deep Strike?

When summoned by the Warp Storm table in the shooting phase or when summoned by the Rift Bringer exalted reward in the assault phase.

Ok, so I think I found it. Page 162 in the BRB, middle of the Deep Strike rules:
"In the Movement phase in which they arrive,...."

So since units arrive in the Movement phase, clearly it is no longer "the start of the turn" and thus, you may use Icons that arrived in that turn to not scatter further units of Daemons. I think it makes sense because it only really works for Daemons of the same alignment

Only "rolling" for Reserves is done at the start of the turn. Once the units start arriving, it is the beginning of the Movement phase.

Thanks Charistoph for pointing out that "grey area". It inspired me to look in the right place.

 Galef wrote:
Ok, so I think I found it. Page 162 in the BRB, middle of the Deep Strike rules:
"In the Movement phase in which they arrive,...."

So since units arrive in the Movement phase, clearly it is no longer "the start of the turn" and thus, you may use Icons that arrived in that turn to not scatter further units of Daemons. I think it makes sense because it only really works for Daemons of the same alignment

Only "rolling" for Reserves is done at the start of the turn. Once the units start arriving, it is the beginning of the Movement phase.

Thanks Charistoph for pointing out that "grey area". It inspired me to look in the right place.

There is nothing that actually states that the Movement Phase starts before units begin arriving. Arriving From Reserves is incomplete and that line from Deep Strike is copy/pasted from a time before when the Movement Phase WAS the start of the turn.

But again, as I said, there is sufficient room for interpretation that it can be whatever you want it to be and whatever others agree it to be.

Does is matter if it was copy/pasted from an older edition? It is still RAW right there. Units Arrive During The Movement Phase. Knowledge of how the rule used to be has no bearing on how it works now
Unless you can point to a specific quote that contradicts this (which is possible, this is GW afterall) there is NO grey area.

-

i think you guys are missing a vital point.... that the codex ruling for the item (Which effects the unit) supersedes the BRB because the BRB says so

also...... deep strike is made at the beginning of the turn, along with other "At the beginning of the turn" orders. The player can choose what order these "Before movement begins" actually happen (Erata & FAQ 2017)

The ruling on the icon of chaos also does not specify if it needs to be on the board the turn before, Khorne daemonkin enforces this ruling as this is the most "current" daemons codex

The deep strike unit does not get it's normal movement because of deep strike, again full context is needed to interprerate this.

This means the following statements will be true

- Unit of Daemons with Icon of chaos prevent other units from scattering on the same turn cause of the codex overruling the BRB for the rule ("Basic vs Advanced" BRB)
- Deep Strike happens "At the beginning of the turn" along with other "Begining of the turn" rules (Deep strike BRB)
- "Begining of the turn" rules are done via the players discretion in terms of what order (FAQ & ERRATA 2017)
- Deep strike units do not move in their movement phase (Deep Strike, BRB)

mchammadad wrote:

Spoiler:

i think you guys are missing a vital point.... that the codex ruling for the item (Which effects the unit) supersedes the BRB because the BRB says so

also...... deep strike is made at the beginning of the turn, along with other "At the beginning of the turn" orders. The player can choose what order these "Before movement begins" actually happen (Erata & FAQ 2017)

The ruling on the icon of chaos also does not specify if it needs to be on the board the turn before, Khorne daemonkin enforces this ruling as this is the most "current" daemons codex

The deep strike unit does not get it's normal movement because of deep strike, again full context is needed to interprerate this.

This means the following statements will be true

- Unit of Daemons with Icon of chaos prevent other units from scattering on the same turn cause of the codex overruling the BRB for the rule ("Basic vs Advanced" BRB)
- Deep Strike happens "At the beginning of the turn" along with other "Begining of the turn" rules (Deep strike BRB)
- "Begining of the turn" rules are done via the players discretion in terms of what order (FAQ & ERRATA 2017)
- Deep strike units do not move in their movement phase (Deep Strike, BRB)

While you and I are arguing the same conclusion, I must point out that the actually "Deep Strike" happens in the Movement phase, so says the Deep Strike rules.
Reserves may be rolled for at the "start of the turn" but the physical act of them arriving is, in fact, done in the Movement phase.
The "at the beginning of the turn" referenced in the Deep Strike rule is regards to rolling for Reserves, not their actual arrival, which is the most pertinent part for Icons

Note what I quoted earlier: "In the Movement phase in which they arrive,...." It does NOT say ""In the Movement phase of the turn in which they arrive,...."
This is a clear statement that the unit arrives in the Movement phase.

-

I would like to point out that units arriving from Reserves on Turn 4+ do so at the beginning of the turn, per the rules for Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out that units arriving from Reserves on Turn 4+ do so at the beginning of the turn, per the rules for Reserves.

Nice catch on that. That is probably why people keep insisting there is a grey area. I felt like I was taking crazy pills

I would still argue that "Deep Striking" dictates Movement phase, thus the method in which Reserves arrive can alter the timing, but it is nice to see where the confusion is coming from.

-

 Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out that units arriving from Reserves on Turn 4+ do so at the beginning of the turn, per the rules for Reserves.

Since "Moving on from reserve" happens when the unit arrives, and units arriving on turn 4+ do so before the movement phase, does that mean they get to "move on from reserve", and then move again in their movement phase?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Almost every piece of wargear that reduces the scatter of nearby friendly units specifies that said piece of wargear must be on the board in the prior turn to be used.
Except Daemon Icons.

I think that's because Daemon Icons had their rules written in early 6th edition, though...

So?

So, that could be an example of an old codex not including clarification text, but still having the same effect. To my understanding of the Deep Strike rules, all of the 'Deep Strike' results technically happen at the same time in 7th, so it's possible that the icon wouldn't count as being on the board when the other units Deep Strike.

They've been saying things need to be on the board at the start of the turn for things like the teleport homer and homing beacon since 4th edition if I remember right. The Daemon's icon specifically allows it to be as soon as it's on the board, just obviously not for the unit holding it. Though if you wanted to argue RAW a lot and be TFG you could try to twist "In addition, if the first model from a friendly unit arriving from deep strike is placed within 6" of at least 1 model with an icon of chaos:" to mean "well if the first model I put down for this unit has the icon technically it's the first model of a friendly unit within 6" of a model with an icon"...

Galef wrote:Does is matter if it was copy/pasted from an older edition? It is still RAW right there. Units Arrive During The Movement Phase. Knowledge of how the rule used to be has no bearing on how it works now
Unless you can point to a specific quote that contradicts this (which is possible, this is GW afterall) there is NO grey area.

Actually it does. Deep Strike is referencing an already defined sequence, not defining when people arrive from Reserves in and of itself. It is relying on a sequence having occurred as being in the Movement Phase.

But where does Arriving From Reserves or Moving On From Reserves actually state the movement is during the Movement Phase?

It could be taken as Deep Strike is helping define it as precedence, but nothing has given it permission to do so. Arriving From Deep Strike actually happens at the same point as any other Moving ON From Reserves, be it normal or Outflank.

This is the grey area.

mchammadad wrote:i think you guys are missing a vital point.... that the codex ruling for the item (Which effects the unit) supersedes the BRB because the BRB says so

No one has actually argued otherwise. The Icon does not state it is allowed to work if it arrived during that Phase or portion of the turn. The only thing that it is stating it does is remove the Scatter from Deep Strike.

mchammadad wrote:The ruling on the icon of chaos also does not specify if it needs to be on the board the turn before, Khorne daemonkin enforces this ruling as this is the most "current" daemons codex

It does not need to. If it is interacting with something that requires it be done at the Start of the Turn, then it cannot be used unless it states otherwise, per the first quote I provided earlier.

The conundrum is "Does Moving on From Reserve count as part of the Start of the Turn or Movement Phase"?

mchammadad wrote:The deep strike unit does not get it's normal movement because of deep strike, again full context is needed to interprerate this.

Not really, it is explicitly stated as such.