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Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






This has been sitting with me for a while because I couldn't quite figure out the question I wanted to ask but the thing that stuck in my mind was the 10k year tech stagnation.
Fenris and Chogoris both have a tribal culture living alongside a highly advanced culture. This happens now in real life but the difference is that our tribal cultures exist because they actively reject our culture, so, how do you suppose they keep tribal cultures who idolise the Space Marines from probing and keep them tribal?

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I am not sure, but your question reminds me of an issue many military commanders have had with elite units. Having elite units often has the negative side effect of bleeding the regular units of their elan, thus making them worse theoretically.

Sorry, that didn't help.
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






Probably the same way knight worlds stay feudal; they get pushed in that direction by someone/something or it simply can't be explained. Or it's some religious thing in most cases.

   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





for a start because the space marines don't mix with the culture. they deliberatly keep away, useally living high on a mountain top or some other inhospitable location, and tend to keep very very distant. to your average Ferensian, the space wovles aren't their neighbors, they're more like olympian gods on their mountain

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






 amanita wrote:
I am not sure, but your question reminds me of an issue many military commanders have had with elite units. Having elite units often has the negative side effect of bleeding the regular units of their elan, thus making them worse theoretically.

Sorry, that didn't help.


Not a problem, it's a valid thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
for a start because the space marines don't mix with the culture. they deliberatly keep away, useally living high on a mountain top or some other inhospitable location, and tend to keep very very distant. to your average Ferensian, the space wovles aren't their neighbors, they're more like olympian gods on their mountain


That's why I ask.
People are curious - Ancient Greeks climbed Mt Olympus to meet the gods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/05 05:27:46


I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Dakka Wolf wrote:
 amanita wrote:
I am not sure, but your question reminds me of an issue many military commanders have had with elite units. Having elite units often has the negative side effect of bleeding the regular units of their elan, thus making them worse theoretically.

Sorry, that didn't help.


Not a problem, it's a valid thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
for a start because the space marines don't mix with the culture. they deliberatly keep away, useally living high on a mountain top or some other inhospitable location, and tend to keep very very distant. to your average Ferensian, the space wovles aren't their neighbors, they're more like olympian gods on their mountain


That's why I ask.
People are curious - Ancient Greeks climbed Mt Olympus to meet the gods.


Right, but not all Fenrisians are willing or able to actually meet the Space Wolves, especially on a death world like Fenris where being able to survive at all is tough. Even if some managed to, either they would be considered potential aspirants (depending on their age), become serfs or sent back. Just because you've been in contact with them doesn't mean they'll radically change their culture, especially if the wolves don't give them any real way to disseminate it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/05 05:41:07


 
   
Made in gg
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy

Currently working on a Hive World Imperial Guard 'Codex' - You can find the WIP here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/711392.page

'My Sword'
'Where did you leave it'
'In the back of a Primarch'

Cookie if you can remind me who said that 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





icn1982 wrote:
I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy


exactly, let's assume for a moment that a ferensian went up to the Fang, assuming he didn't pass out from lack of oxygen before he got nearly high eneugh (the Fang is HIGH, ever see pictures or video of people climbing mt Everest? notice they're all carrying Oxygen tanks? thats because once you get that high the air becomes so thin breathing is a problem) what would he see, (beyond correctly concluding anyone who can live so high up, is super human) he'd see armor clad giants with swords crackling with lighting (power swords) and magic wands that could crackle with thunder and explode anything they pointed at (bolt guns) he'd not see technology at all, he'd quite literally see magical being with magical items.

the first space wolf novel actually gives some good insight that way

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






BrianDavion wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy


exactly, let's assume for a moment that a ferensian went up to the Fang, assuming he didn't pass out from lack of oxygen before he got nearly high eneugh (the Fang is HIGH, ever see pictures or video of people climbing mt Everest? notice they're all carrying Oxygen tanks? thats because once you get that high the air becomes so thin breathing is a problem) what would he see, (beyond correctly concluding anyone who can live so high up, is super human) he'd see armor clad giants with swords crackling with lighting (power swords) and magic wands that could crackle with thunder and explode anything they pointed at (bolt guns) he'd not see technology at all, he'd quite literally see magical being with magical items.

the first space wolf novel actually gives some good insight that way


The first Space Wolf novel got a name?

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






I must say, the description of Space Wolves as 'Olympian Sky Gods' along with this utterly fantastic description of them (below) has completely turned around what I thought of Space Wolves.

https://ironsleet.com/2016/08/18/saga-of-the-luna-slayer-fenrys-hjolda/

Before: Wolfy McWolfson Space Furries
After: Utterly alien kickass Space Scandinavians

See, if GW fluff went more for that angle than the typical 'power-armoured Mary Sues' or 'power-armoured Mary Sues...with beards!' I'd have a lot more time for Marines

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz





Southern California

40K uses the concept of the "Noble Savage." The mistaken belief cultures untouched by modern civilization's "evils" are pure and strong. In fact, cultures afflicted by preventable disease and famine are decidedly worse off than the more advanced civilizations. Now, obviously, that may not be true in history when they were exploited and eradicated by the more modern civilization. But, it' s a great narrative. The Imperium treats Death World's like Fenris as crucibles that distill the greatest fighting prowess from those who survive. So does Star Trek and Star Wars, etc... So, it's baked in the cake that the primitives endure, instead of explore. They don't advance and discover and invent. They are driven by survival, not curiosity.
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I must say, the description of Space Wolves as 'Olympian Sky Gods' along with this utterly fantastic description of them (below) has completely turned around what I thought of Space Wolves.

https://ironsleet.com/2016/08/18/saga-of-the-luna-slayer-fenrys-hjolda/

Before: Wolfy McWolfson Space Furries
After: Utterly alien kickass Space Scandinavians

See, if GW fluff went more for that angle than the typical 'power-armoured Mary Sues' or 'power-armoured Mary Sues...with beards!' I'd have a lot more time for Marines


That was amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gobbla wrote:
40K uses the concept of the "Noble Savage." The mistaken belief cultures untouched by modern civilization's "evils" are pure and strong. In fact, cultures afflicted by preventable disease and famine are decidedly worse off than the more advanced civilizations. Now, obviously, that may not be true in history when they were exploited and eradicated by the more modern civilization. But, it' s a great narrative. The Imperium treats Death World's like Fenris as crucibles that distill the greatest fighting prowess from those who survive. So does Star Trek and Star Wars, etc... So, it's baked in the cake that the primitives endure, instead of explore. They don't advance and discover and invent. They are driven by survival, not curiosity.


Fair call, well said too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/05 19:57:37


I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Dakka Wolf wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy


exactly, let's assume for a moment that a ferensian went up to the Fang, assuming he didn't pass out from lack of oxygen before he got nearly high eneugh (the Fang is HIGH, ever see pictures or video of people climbing mt Everest? notice they're all carrying Oxygen tanks? thats because once you get that high the air becomes so thin breathing is a problem) what would he see, (beyond correctly concluding anyone who can live so high up, is super human) he'd see armor clad giants with swords crackling with lighting (power swords) and magic wands that could crackle with thunder and explode anything they pointed at (bolt guns) he'd not see technology at all, he'd quite literally see magical being with magical items.

the first space wolf novel actually gives some good insight that way


The first Space Wolf novel got a name?


Space Wolf by William King.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






 Dakka Wolf wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I must say, the description of Space Wolves as 'Olympian Sky Gods' along with this utterly fantastic description of them (below) has completely turned around what I thought of Space Wolves.

https://ironsleet.com/2016/08/18/saga-of-the-luna-slayer-fenrys-hjolda/

Before: Wolfy McWolfson Space Furries
After: Utterly alien kickass Space Scandinavians

See, if GW fluff went more for that angle than the typical 'power-armoured Mary Sues' or 'power-armoured Mary Sues...with beards!' I'd have a lot more time for Marines


That was amazing.


It really is kickass isn't it?

Makes you wonder what's possible with other Marine chapters...

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






BrianDavion wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy


exactly, let's assume for a moment that a ferensian went up to the Fang, assuming he didn't pass out from lack of oxygen before he got nearly high eneugh (the Fang is HIGH, ever see pictures or video of people climbing mt Everest? notice they're all carrying Oxygen tanks? thats because once you get that high the air becomes so thin breathing is a problem) what would he see, (beyond correctly concluding anyone who can live so high up, is super human) he'd see armor clad giants with swords crackling with lighting (power swords) and magic wands that could crackle with thunder and explode anything they pointed at (bolt guns) he'd not see technology at all, he'd quite literally see magical being with magical items.

the first space wolf novel actually gives some good insight that way


The first Space Wolf novel got a name?


Space Wolf by William King.


Just had to make sure.
You might want to re-read that.
Ragnar the tribesman describes the Wolf Priests in the flying troop carrier as silent observers watching hypocricy unfold, not divine beings, maybe too hurt, angry and injured to care, but definitely not awed.
It's not until into his Wolf Blade days that Ragnar shows any kind of curiosity.
As for magic I've seen people who grew up by the fireplace reverse engineer a broken Ford Ute to make it work. Admittedly, that's not growing up by the fire then troubleshooting Windows code but people are curious by nature, even people occupied by survival some of the biggest jumps in tech come from trying to make survival easier.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





North Carolina

icn1982 wrote:
I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy




Depends on the Chapter. The Salamanders tend to interact with the people of Nocturne on a regular basis. And there seems to be a large amount of interaction between the Ultramarines and Macragge (and the other worlds in the Realm of Ultramar) due to the Ultramarines being the government of those worlds.

Proud Purveyor Of The Unconventional In 40k 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Dakka Wolf wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
I agree that it is in part because the space marines don't mix with the population. They tend to be looked upon by the population as mythical creatures/gods like with the Olympian Gods.

But I also think you underestimate just how dangerous these planets are. If you consider our own tech evolution, most discoveries and inventions came about in 'civilized' parts of the world, why, in the inhospitable area's they had more important things to worry about, such as staying alive, in the 'civilized' area's they had the time to wonder about things and experiment.

Consider the native American Indians, they rejected a lot of technology because it had no purpose in their society (such as camera's, trains etc. But they were willing to use gun powder weapons when they could get them, because it was something they actually needed).

The final part of this is that how little is understood about technology in the 40k universe. You cant explain how something works to someone else if you don't understand the basic principles behind it yourself. Could you explain how a car worked without at least a basic knowledge of combustion? Throw into the mix that any innovation in the 40k universe is bordering on tech heresy


exactly, let's assume for a moment that a ferensian went up to the Fang, assuming he didn't pass out from lack of oxygen before he got nearly high eneugh (the Fang is HIGH, ever see pictures or video of people climbing mt Everest? notice they're all carrying Oxygen tanks? thats because once you get that high the air becomes so thin breathing is a problem) what would he see, (beyond correctly concluding anyone who can live so high up, is super human) he'd see armor clad giants with swords crackling with lighting (power swords) and magic wands that could crackle with thunder and explode anything they pointed at (bolt guns) he'd not see technology at all, he'd quite literally see magical being with magical items.

the first space wolf novel actually gives some good insight that way


The first Space Wolf novel got a name?


Space Wolf by William King.


Just had to make sure.
You might want to re-read that.
Ragnar the tribesman describes the Wolf Priests in the flying troop carrier as silent observers watching hypocricy unfold, not divine beings, maybe too hurt, angry and injured to care, but definitely not awed.
It's not until into his Wolf Blade days that Ragnar shows any kind of curiosity.
As for magic I've seen people who grew up by the fireplace reverse engineer a broken Ford Ute to make it work. Admittedly, that's not growing up by the fire then troubleshooting Windows code but people are curious by nature, even people occupied by survival some of the biggest jumps in tech come from trying to make survival easier.



I'm not saying they nesscarily saw them as gods, but rather saw them as magical.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
This has been sitting with me for a while because I couldn't quite figure out the question I wanted to ask but the thing that stuck in my mind was the 10k year tech stagnation.
Fenris and Chogoris both have a tribal culture living alongside a highly advanced culture. This happens now in real life but the difference is that our tribal cultures exist because they actively reject our culture, so, how do you suppose they keep tribal cultures who idolise the Space Marines from probing and keep them tribal?


Access to technology and education are what destroys primitive cultures. Go deep into africa and you will see everyone wearing Tshirts and carrying cheap knocoff nokia function phones but otherwise still living rather primitively. They have access to cheap technology but not to education.

Keeping a planet primitive would be easy, just restrict the flow of manufactured goods to a minimum. Without education or the tools to start building manufacturing, they would be kept primitive.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Yeah agreed. The fact that there are still primitive societies living in the same country as other people with a modern level of technological integration is testament to the fact that it's quite easy to keep a society technologically regressed (whether that's intentional on the part of each side or not).

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






This is one of the common theme in many sifi stories and settings. Ranging from stargate, to the classics such as Asimov and Vinge or even the DnD Dark sun setting . It almost always comes down to interfering at the right moment, and supplying minimum information to keeping them in the dark about the crucial things.

I like these two stories, each with a different approach.
http://escapepod.org/2015/12/30/ep515-the-winter-festival/

http://escapepod.org/2016/09/12/ep541-as-travelers-in-sky-boats/

.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/08 02:01:28


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Several things

- The advanced culture might pull anyone out who is intelligent enough and curious enough to stand out. Thus, anyone who would want to advance the civilization gets weeded out, leaving those who have either no skill or desire to improve their current state.

- The advanced culture might suppress the primitive culture. It could either be a case of restricted resources or social stigma - the haves keeping the have nots out of their way.

- Fear of abduction. Anyone who gets pulled out of the culture doesn't come back. As far as the primitive culture knows, getting the attention of the advanced culture is a death sentence. Tends to make people avoid doing things - such as improving their way of life if they fear it could get them killed.

It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






 Stormonu wrote:
Several things

- The advanced culture might pull anyone out who is intelligent enough and curious enough to stand out. Thus, anyone who would want to advance the civilization gets weeded out, leaving those who have either no skill or desire to improve their current state.

- The advanced culture might suppress the primitive culture. It could either be a case of restricted resources or social stigma - the haves keeping the have nots out of their way.

- Fear of abduction. Anyone who gets pulled out of the culture doesn't come back. As far as the primitive culture knows, getting the attention of the advanced culture is a death sentence. Tends to make people avoid doing things - such as improving their way of life if they fear it could get them killed.


These would make good stories. I like these themes.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

 Stormonu wrote:
Several things

- The advanced culture might pull anyone out who is intelligent enough and curious enough to stand out. Thus, anyone who would want to advance the civilization gets weeded out, leaving those who have either no skill or desire to improve their current state.

- The advanced culture might suppress the primitive culture. It could either be a case of restricted resources or social stigma - the haves keeping the have nots out of their way.

- Fear of abduction. Anyone who gets pulled out of the culture doesn't come back. As far as the primitive culture knows, getting the attention of the advanced culture is a death sentence. Tends to make people avoid doing things - such as improving their way of life if they fear it could get them killed.


You also can have different languages at play. A primitive culture that speaks it's own language would have to learn the advanced cultures language before they could really start to understand/make use of the technology of the advanced culture. The advanced culture can make it difficult to learn the language, particularly in the case of a space marine monestary on the planet. Space marines dont have kids, so no one from the advanced culture is in the process of learning the language.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
 
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