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E.g Pertuarbo and Mortarian.

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Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.

Currently working on a Hive World Imperial Guard 'Codex' - You can find the WIP here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/711392.page

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It certainly puts the traitors in a new light that should make you like/understand them more. I love this quote from Angron:
Spoiler:
"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
, this whole dialogue with Roboute just shows the jaring difference between some of the traitors and the Loyalists. Most of the loyalists were raised as kings on their planets whilst some of the traitors (Angron, Curze, etc.) had to fight against dictatorship and corruption to protect themselves and the people of the planet.


Angron here is definitely more likable than Girlyman here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/05 10:01:33


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
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I certainly sympathize with Angron and Pert, at least until I remember what they did to their legions/sons. Roughly the same for Magnus, but I also kind of dislike their seeming bias to psykers over non-psykers.
There is also the fact that people can give good defenses against the Traitor Primarchs. With regard to the quote above me, Guilleman shoots straight back at him (something about being to hateful to learn and spiteful to prosper), and Dorn's 1d4chan page has a good defence of dorn and a pertinant view on Pert which I quote below:

There was another Legion that was similar, of course. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were also known as siege specialists and urban combatants. They, too, willingly fed themselves into that vicious meatgrinder where others would not. But Perturabo did not do it for duty, or for loyalty; he did it searching for glory. He thought that taking the jobs no one else would do would bring him glory and favor. But when it didn't come, his heart grew bitter. Unlike his brother, he expected gratitude. He felt ignored, cheated, denied, forgotten. This was why he and Dorn bickered. For while Dorn may not have often smiled, nor did he frown. He simply did what was asked, with his jaw set to the task, unable to smile and laugh in the most recent victory because his mind was already turned to the things that needed to be done and those things that could have been done better. Dorn thought his brother should have been happy to serve the Emperor's will, as was Dorn himself. He did not understand why Perturabo felt he needed more.

If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited. 
   
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Yeah I sympathise with Angron, Pert, Magnus and Mortarion.

Love that Angron quote, and to me Guilliman's response just paints Guilliman as dismissive to me, rather than insightful commentary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/05 15:03:10


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icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.


There was no war in the webway at that time. The reason this war ever happened is because Magnus breached through the defenses to pass on the message about Horus betrayal.
   
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Engrenages wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.


There was no war in the webway at that time. The reason this war ever happened is because Magnus breached through the defenses to pass on the message about Horus betrayal.


Oh, I thought there was something going on with it which is why the emperor returned to earth

Currently working on a Hive World Imperial Guard 'Codex' - You can find the WIP here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/711392.page

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'Where did you leave it'
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 mrhappyface wrote:
It certainly puts the traitors in a new light that should make you like/understand them more. I love this quote from Angron:
Spoiler:
"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
, this whole dialogue with Roboute just shows the jaring difference between some of the traitors and the Loyalists. Most of the loyalists were raised as kings on their planets whilst some of the traitors (Angron, Curze, etc.) had to fight against dictatorship and corruption to protect themselves and the people of the planet.


Angron here is definitely more likable than Girlyman here.


This is in the context that Lorgar and Angron had launched a sneak attack on the 500 Worlds, and Guilliman and his Ultramarines had raced out to meet the marauding traitors, right?

Typical of Angron, the one Primarch who couldn't conquer the planet he landed on (even Curze managed that), to blame everyone but himself!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/05 17:46:15


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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 Crazyterran wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
It certainly puts the traitors in a new light that should make you like/understand them more. I love this quote from Angron:
Spoiler:
"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
, this whole dialogue with Roboute just shows the jaring difference between some of the traitors and the Loyalists. Most of the loyalists were raised as kings on their planets whilst some of the traitors (Angron, Curze, etc.) had to fight against dictatorship and corruption to protect themselves and the people of the planet.


Angron here is definitely more likable than Girlyman here.


This is in the context that Lorgar and Angron had launched a sneak attack on the 500 Worlds, and Guilliman and his Ultramarines had raced out to meet the marauding traitors, right?

Typical of Angron, the one Primarch who couldn't conquer the planet he landed on (even Curze managed that), to blame everyone but himself!

Yes this was after the Word Bearers and World Eaters attacked the Ultramarines.

Also Angron was not handed the ruling of the planet to him (unlike certain other primarchs), he was enslaved as a child and only had slaves as an army to fight with. Curze terrorrized his planet into submission but he was a free man, not a slave.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
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icn1982 wrote:
Engrenages wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.


There was no war in the webway at that time. The reason this war ever happened is because Magnus breached through the defenses to pass on the message about Horus betrayal.


Oh, I thought there was something going on with it which is why the emperor returned to earth


No he just returned to supervise the wbeway project personally.
   
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Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

icn1982 wrote:
Engrenages wrote:
icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.


There was no war in the webway at that time. The reason this war ever happened is because Magnus breached through the defenses to pass on the message about Horus betrayal.


Oh, I thought there was something going on with it which is why the emperor returned to earth

One of the reasons the Gods used to turn Horus on the Emperor was that Emps had abandoned the crusade and wouldn't tell his favourite son why. Such a secretive leader that doesn't spearpoint his own crusade wasn't fit to run in the eyes of corrupted Horus.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
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Angron is the only ''traitor'' primarch with a legitimate reason to rebel

All the other ones fell due to their own flaws
   
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To be honest you can't really blame him for getting nails put in his brain as a child, so yeah it is a tiny little bit the fault of other people.

And it isn't really a sneak attack when parts of the word bearers kind of like made them being traitors know (and that angron was with them) by attacking calth. Also stopping at every second planet, to kill everyone on it by hand,with a giant space fleet is not really sneaky.
   
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Jorim wrote:

And it isn't really a sneak attack when parts of the word bearers kind of like made them being traitors know (and that angron was with them) by attacking calth. Also stopping at every second planet, to kill everyone on it by hand,with a giant space fleet is not really sneaky.

That's how the World Eaters do sneaky.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
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godking wrote:
Angron is the only ''traitor'' primarch with a legitimate reason to rebel

All the other ones fell due to their own flaws


All the Primarchs have flaws.
Angron and Magnus both wound up with good reason to rebel.
Angron's was a wound that was never treated to stop the festering, Magnus' was a freshly opened wound but it was a beauty.
Angron was abducted from his comrades who were left to die and he never forgave, nor did the Emperor ever try to make it right. Closest Angron got to family recognition on the matter was from two interfering brother hens who thought they knew better.
Magnus had his home planet blown up by the Wolves, Sisters of Silence and Custodes, there is no explanation that warrants blowing up a planet of innocents - in Magnus' eyes they were innocents under his protection and I doubt calling them heretics would help matters.

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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I sympathise with Angron, Pert, Magnus and Mortarion.

Love that Angron quote, and to me Guilliman's response just paints Guilliman as dismissive to me, rather than insightful commentary.


What was the response from Guilliman? Anyone have the quote?

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Pity.. geez.. I'd put them into Therapy.

And i'm not kidding, I've actually worked alongside psychiatrists, guidance counselors, social workers, and psychotherapists..... all of the Primarchs need some form of counseling given the massive issues they face - addiction, schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Paranoia, Narcissism, Schizoid personality, OCD, and lots and lots of PTSD.

If i had to apply real-world dynamics to this...

1.) Lorgar would be the easiest to treat. This is such a classic case of a child resenting their father's expectations of them.

2.) Konrad Curze, depending at what stage of the timeline, would have to be institutionalized.

3.) Angron is the one who deserves the most help - but would probably end up killing his therapist.

4.) Couples counseling for Pert and Rogal Dorn definitely. His jealousy and competitiveness could be redirected toward more positive ends.

5.) Fulgrim.......... tough nut to crack really. If it was really all the sword's fault, then there's nothing that could be done. But if the sword brought out a strand of perfectionism that already is a part of him.......... Geez, yeah its still hard.

6.) Horus and his Dad issues. This is another couples counseling thing.....the problem isn't actually Horus though....its actually..

7.)...... The Emperor for ironically being so inhuman..............

If he were less of the "All-Powerful Secretive Mysterious God-like man" and more like...an actual Dad....... with Transparency... much of the Heresy could have been avoided.

But that would actually require him to -care- about his kids...

   
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GrapeApe wrote:
Pity.. geez.. I'd put them into Therapy.

And i'm not kidding, I've actually worked alongside psychiatrists, guidance counselors, social workers, and psychotherapists..... all of the Primarchs need some form of counseling given the massive issues they face - addiction, schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Paranoia, Narcissism, Schizoid personality, OCD, and lots and lots of PTSD.

If i had to apply real-world dynamics to this...

1.) Lorgar would be the easiest to treat. This is such a classic case of a child resenting their father's expectations of them.

2.) Konrad Curze, depending at what stage of the timeline, would have to be institutionalized.

3.) Angron is the one who deserves the most help - but would probably end up killing his therapist.

4.) Couples counseling for Pert and Rogal Dorn definitely. His jealousy and competitiveness could be redirected toward more positive ends.

5.) Fulgrim.......... tough nut to crack really. If it was really all the sword's fault, then there's nothing that could be done. But if the sword brought out a strand of perfectionism that already is a part of him.......... Geez, yeah its still hard.

6.) Horus and his Dad issues. This is another couples counseling thing.....the problem isn't actually Horus though....its actually..

7.)...... The Emperor for ironically being so inhuman..............

If he were less of the "All-Powerful Secretive Mysterious God-like man" and more like...an actual Dad....... with Transparency... much of the Heresy could have been avoided.

But that would actually require him to -care- about his kids...



I would love to read what you make of the loyalist primarchs issues and how they could be addressed.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I sympathise with Angron, Pert, Magnus and Mortarion.

Love that Angron quote, and to me Guilliman's response just paints Guilliman as dismissive to me, rather than insightful commentary.


What was the response from Guilliman? Anyone have the quote?


If we are talking about the same quote, it is something like "You are still a slave Angron. Trapped in your past, oblivious to the present, blind to the future."
   
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GrapeApe wrote:


2.) Konrad Curze, depending at what stage of the timeline, would have to be institutionalized.



What percentage of people who get institutionalized actually are seeing the future?

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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
godking wrote:
Angron is the only ''traitor'' primarch with a legitimate reason to rebel

All the other ones fell due to their own flaws


All the Primarchs have flaws.
Angron and Magnus both wound up with good reason to rebel.
Angron's was a wound that was never treated to stop the festering, Magnus' was a freshly opened wound but it was a beauty.
Angron was abducted from his comrades who were left to die and he never forgave, nor did the Emperor ever try to make it right. Closest Angron got to family recognition on the matter was from two interfering brother hens who thought they knew better.
Magnus had his home planet blown up by the Wolves, Sisters of Silence and Custodes, there is no explanation that warrants blowing up a planet of innocents - in Magnus' eyes they were innocents under his protection and I doubt calling them heretics would help matters.[/quoteIn all honesty and with a due respect feth Magnus !

When he delivered his ''warning'' he destroyed humanities chance not to be devoured by chaos when he destroyed the webway.

Had the webway remained intact humanity might still have had a chance even if Horus took every planet except Terra.

He was'nt a traitor but his hubris and arrogance doomed humanity i have no sympathy for him.
   
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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
GrapeApe wrote:


I would love to read what you make of the loyalist primarchs issues and how they could be addressed.


1.) Corax and Leman Russ are at the top of that list.....

...except Leman would probably punch me in the face and walk out. I've dealt with Russ-types in real life. He might be harder to treat than Angron really.

Corax on the other hand - his guilt. You know, he falls into that category of the "Reckless Rebel who wants to Save Everyone." And so at the end of the Heresy he feels like he failed everyone - his people, his brothers, Dad.... Sure you wouldn't have to medicate him cause you know he's not going throw you out of a window, but that's years and years of therapy right there. Because you have to walk with him to pick up the pieces and regain a sense of confidence.

2,) Roboute Guilliman... Yeah i know what your thinking, "he's the Perfect Son..."

But that's where the issue comes in right? Angron pointed out - Perfection kind of isolates you from other people. (Example = Dad!).

He's the Older Brother trying to keep the Family together, since Dad is AWOL. And hey if we do it all by these rather fair set of rules i've generated, everything will be just fine.......because that's how you keep a family together...an abstract set of rules....

Poor guy... didn't even realize he was beat from the start.

3.) Rogal Dorn. Less of therapy, more of just a piece of advice. While his unwavering devotion to the Truth is admirable..... let's face it.. People dislike the Truth when it happens to clash with their emotional picture of themselves or a deeply held belief. And sometimes, :gasp: the "Truth" can't be so easily discerned in all situations.

Its like when a wife or girlfriend tries to elicit a compliment from a husband/boyfriend. What kind of guy says, "Honey you look like a miserable hag." or "Love, i'm really busy right now, so please don't bother me right now."

sometimes we say things in a relationship (any sort of relationship really, between children and parents, siblings etc), simply to affirm that we Care.

Dorn got tripped up on a point -> There's a Difference between being Right and being Effective....


4.) Lion El'Jonson... Next to Corax, he's the Big Black Hole to be addressed.

Corax is a fixer-uper - progress can be made step by step. Russ' excesses can be....ameilorated. But he's still geniunely a good man at heart.


Lion El'Jonson.. I mean, geez, where to begin. This is like trying to counsel Hamlet.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Exergy wrote:
GrapeApe wrote:


2.) Konrad Curze, depending at what stage of the timeline, would have to be institutionalized.



What percentage of people who get institutionalized actually are seeing the future?


But you see that's just the thing.... he would have to be institutionalized BECAUSE he's undergoing all of that.

This is one of those issues, like Fulgrim and the Sword, that goes well beyond what any human could hope to treat.

The only idea that pops into my head, since "Dad" in unavailable, is to turn to the Eldar.

He needs someone who is experiencing the same thing he is going through, or something similar. Only thing that comes to mind is a Farseer....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/05 22:14:00


 
   
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Sanguinius did fine with his visions. Was Curze so crazy because of his visions or were they so bad because he himself looked for the worst? The guy was torturing and mutilating from well before his Emperor-gonna-kill-me vision after all.
   
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Plenty of the traitor primarchs were donkey-caves.

-Angron did the exact same thing he had gone through to his legion. He literally mutilated the minds of hundreds of thousands of men out of spite.

-Perturabo decimated in the classic sense of the word his legion because they were not good enough. Just when he had met them.

-Magnus had been warned multiple times already prior to Nichea.
   
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Halandri

icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.


I think the seed was planted for Horus when they made the attack on the Ork Planetoid of Gorro. What The Emperor did there caused Horus to question the nature of the universe, question The Emperor's honesty and question whether The Emperor really was simply a superhuman or something much more.
   
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 Crazyterran wrote:


Typical of Angron, the one Primarch who couldn't conquer the planet he landed on (even Curze managed that), to blame everyone but himself!


Curze managed that, literally, by himself with no help whatsoever. All things told, what Curze did is more impressive than what any of his brothers accomplished before they were found, given his start. I doubt any of the other primarchs would have done much better, left with exactly no one to raise them or teach them.

Clearly, I feel more than a little pity for Curze. He landed on a planet almost custom-made to drive him insane. He never had a friend until he met Fulgrim, who turned out to be a gakky, tattle-telling sort of friend. His constant visions of the horrible things that will happen to everyone and everything gave him little hope of ever being sane, and the lack of treatment or help he received from his brothers, dad, or anyone else didn't help.

If anyone had given Curze what he needed, Curze could have forseen and then prevented the Heresy by himself. Instead, Night Haunter got to run the ship too often and they fell to Chaos. Sucks to be the Corpse-Emperor, who preferred spending time with the dude that'll kill Him and the Cyclops who'd break His favorite toy.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






godking wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
godking wrote:
Angron is the only ''traitor'' primarch with a legitimate reason to rebel

All the other ones fell due to their own flaws


All the Primarchs have flaws.
Angron and Magnus both wound up with good reason to rebel.
Angron's was a wound that was never treated to stop the festering, Magnus' was a freshly opened wound but it was a beauty.
Angron was abducted from his comrades who were left to die and he never forgave, nor did the Emperor ever try to make it right. Closest Angron got to family recognition on the matter was from two interfering brother hens who thought they knew better.
Magnus had his home planet blown up by the Wolves, Sisters of Silence and Custodes, there is no explanation that warrants blowing up a planet of innocents - in Magnus' eyes they were innocents under his protection and I doubt calling them heretics would help matters.


In all honesty and with a due respect feth Magnus !

When he delivered his ''warning'' he destroyed humanities chance not to be devoured by chaos when he destroyed the webway.

Had the webway remained intact humanity might still have had a chance even if Horus took every planet except Terra.

He was'nt a traitor but his hubris and arrogance doomed humanity i have no sympathy for him.


His Hubris.
The Hubris of Magnus the Red Cyclopse.
Not the Hubris of Prospero and the people who lived on it.
The planet did not need to be destroyed.
As a Wolves player I still have sympathy for Magnus, he screwed up but his planet payed for it. Yes he blames the Wolves and Imperium and he has every right to - what they did went beyond overkill. If he also blames himself for it or not is irrelevant.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
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The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops

GrapeApe wrote:


But you see that's just the thing.... he would have to be institutionalized BECAUSE he's undergoing all of that.

This is one of those issues, like Fulgrim and the Sword, that goes well beyond what any human could hope to treat.

The only idea that pops into my head, since "Dad" in unavailable, is to turn to the Eldar.

He needs someone who is experiencing the same thing he is going through, or something similar. Only thing that comes to mind is a Farseer....



Ya know, Curze getting an Eldar Farseer to help him through gak seems like such a simple fix for something that could feth up the galaxy we need a story about why the Eldar didn't try and do that.

Fulgrim was not exactly a good choice for Eldrad to talk to.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/06 01:08:59


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I don't have any sympathy for the traitors.
Ultimately they all killed or sought to kill their own brothers and broke their oaths of loyalty.
   
Made in gb
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Killer Klaivex







I feel sorry for Magnus, because he never wanted betray his father and brothers, but was forced to it.

I feel sorry for Angron, the slave who saw his father for what he truly was, and was driven mad by the pain of the nails in his head.

I feel sorry for Curze, who was plagued by visions of a future so bleak he couldn't stand it, and condemned to perpetual loneliness.

I feel slightly sorry for Mortarion and Perturabo, but less so than the above three. They had legitimate complaints, but really should have manned up and gotten over it.

Lorgar, Fulgrim, and Horus get no sympathy from me.


 
   
 
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