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Ok so I'm having a game with 4 friends that we use for bragging rights in our town, I am a heavy 'Nids player even after 7edition nerfs (And some buffs) My friend that I'm concerned about fighting is going for a very Tzeechy army and is bringing a Warhound titan (3000 pts game) he has let us know that it will, after some psychic hi-jinks be invisible too. Needless to say I have NO FREAKING IDEA HOW TO PUT THAT THING DOWN, I have been told to kill the psyker casting the power but 3++ save and he wil be in the backlines VERY protected, the only thing I can think of is Mawloc spam him with TFTD rule until he's dead. But then I have a Warhound titan to still worry about (He is using the LB destroyer weapons on either arm) How am I gonna fight this guys?

Kill the rest of the army. Chances are you'll never slay the Warhound so kill the rest of the army and play to the mission by capturing objectives.

Of course if it's kill points, you're screwed, so don't set it up to be that way.

Since tarpits are stupidly effective against them, just charge the Warhound with 30 gants or something. It can't fight worth half a damn in close combat, and unless he's using the 30k rules, it can be locked in combat pretty much perpetually. If he has to throw units at it to free the Warhound up, then he's tarpitting huge chunks of his army, and you can just throw more gants on the pile.

And how are you gona get the gaunts to actually engage the titan? Not that they can actually move fast enough or bypass titan's bodyguards.

 koooaei wrote:
And how are you gona get the gaunts to actually engage the titan? Not that they can actually move fast enough or bypass titan's bodyguards.

It's a 3000 point game. Gants have fleet, and I'm pretty sure there's a way to give them outflank. Either way, unless the board is played longways, they should be able to get a turn 2 assault with some good target priority to clear bodyguard units out of the way. Unless, of course, the bodyguard units are so densely packed around the titan that shooting can't get through it at all, but if that's the case, then just hit it with tons and tons of templates.

I think you should actually try catching something significant with footslogging hordes without using magic before posting things like this. They're so weak you're unlikely to face something outside of vraks zombies or ig conscripts. And not that any of this options are going to catch a titan like...ever.

 koooaei wrote:
I think you should actually try catching something significant with footslogging hordes without using magic before posting things like this. They're so weak you're unlikely to face something outside of vraks zombies or ig conscripts. And not that any of this options are going to catch a titan like...ever.

I suppose it all depends on the size of the board that this is being played on. They gave no impression that it was going to be larger than the standard 4x6 board, so assuming that the Tyranid player invests even slightly more than average on infantry, he should be able to cover the entire board very easily with 3k points, not including the guys that will be infiltrating. You can't run away when there's nowhere to get out of the way to.

Stomp is still going to destroy the hordes, particularly when the Synapse is gone. Soften them up with a blast and then clean up.

Although I've had a bit more time to think and I think there was an FAQ that said Large Blasts don't hit FMCs that are swooping. So bring a Flying Circus, maybe Skyblight, and keep as much stuff in the air could also be an option.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I think you should actually try catching something significant with footslogging hordes without using magic before posting things like this. They're so weak you're unlikely to face something outside of vraks zombies or ig conscripts. And not that any of this options are going to catch a titan like...ever.

I suppose it all depends on the size of the board that this is being played on. They gave no impression that it was going to be larger than the standard 4x6 board, so assuming that the Tyranid player invests even slightly more than average on infantry, he should be able to cover the entire board very easily with 3k points, not including the guys that will be infiltrating. You can't run away when there's nowhere to get out of the way to.

It's gona take 2-3 turns (most likely 3) at best for the gaunts and 4-5 turns for the zombies to reach a superheavy that's a bit further from the edge of the deployment zone. IF they're not shot at. And if you shoot at termagaunts, cultists, conscripts or zombies they...die - surprise-surprise. The closest models die, so even if there's an unlimited amount of those footsloggers, they're gona loose ground resulting in at least an extra turn of movement. If they're spread out, they're gona suffer fewer casualties but each casualty is going to throw them backwards, if they're bunched up, they'll die so quickly to area of effect weapons there's gona be nothing to actually reach combat.

There's a reason people stopped running hordes in 6-th edition. Increased effectiveness of shooting and death from the front makes them unable to reach anything meaningful. They're still ok at bauble wrapping your own units - but that's the opposite of reaching the enemy and tying down a shooty superheavy.

Especially if the warhound is running turbo lasers as it should be, 4 blasts like that a turn will wipe off any hordes even looking at it. Best bet may be to keep things that can actually scratch it near their own stuff so it can't fire at them without hitting their own guys or by bringing a metric ton of distraction units. I'm not too familiar with 7th ed nids, just enough to know its seemingly impossible for them, but there has to be some sort of build that can keep getting guys in their face as distractions while you work around it

Invisible Titan, huh? You sure he's not just painted up a base with no model on it?

 koooaei wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I think you should actually try catching something significant with footslogging hordes without using magic before posting things like this. They're so weak you're unlikely to face something outside of vraks zombies or ig conscripts. And not that any of this options are going to catch a titan like...ever.

I suppose it all depends on the size of the board that this is being played on. They gave no impression that it was going to be larger than the standard 4x6 board, so assuming that the Tyranid player invests even slightly more than average on infantry, he should be able to cover the entire board very easily with 3k points, not including the guys that will be infiltrating. You can't run away when there's nowhere to get out of the way to.

It's gona take 2-3 turns (most likely 3) at best for the gaunts and 4-5 turns for the zombies to reach a superheavy that's a bit further from the edge of the deployment zone. IF they're not shot at. And if you shoot at termagaunts, cultists, conscripts or zombies they...die - surprise-surprise. The closest models die, so even if there's an unlimited amount of those footsloggers, they're gona loose ground resulting in at least an extra turn of movement. If they're spread out, they're gona suffer fewer casualties but each casualty is going to throw them backwards, if they're bunched up, they'll die so quickly to area of effect weapons there's gona be nothing to actually reach combat.

There's a reason people stopped running hordes in 6-th edition. Increased effectiveness of shooting and death from the front makes them unable to reach anything meaningful. They're still ok at bauble wrapping your own units - but that's the opposite of reaching the enemy and tying down a shooty superheavy.

Almost definitely two turns. A Warhound takes up a big footprint, it'll be at least 8" from the board edge unless the guy who built it made it really tall and skinny so that he can press it up against the wall. That puts 30" between the gaunts and the warhound, best case scenario if he puts it as far away as possible.
Gaunts move 6", and have an average 8" run movement. That's 14" turn one. Turn two, they move 6", and have an average 10" charge. So, on average, you're getting 30" crossed in one turn.

"But wait!" I hear you say. "Rolls aren't always average! And shooting will take out some of the models at the front of the unit!"
Well, here's what I have to say to that: It's going to be more than one unit of Hormagaunts. Yeah, you can stop one unit from making its average distance covered. But can you stop 5 or 6? Gants are cheap. And while all this is going on, you still have to deal with everything else that they're bringing. Barring really poor conditions and rolling for the tyranid player, it's going to be a turn 2 assault.
Zombies aren't relevant here, but since you brought them up, I'm just going to mention the many, many relics and psychic powers that CSM can use to move them quickly across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
Especially if the warhound is running turbo lasers as it should be, 4 blasts like that a turn will wipe off any hordes even looking at it. Best bet may be to keep things that can actually scratch it near their own stuff so it can't fire at them without hitting their own guys or by bringing a metric ton of distraction units. I'm not too familiar with 7th ed nids, just enough to know its seemingly impossible for them, but there has to be some sort of build that can keep getting guys in their face as distractions while you work around it

If you're using your D weapons to kill hordes, you're doing it wrong.

Also, a thought: Take Venomthropes. That shrouded bubble will really take the edge off of any D weapons or other big guns being fired at you.

A warhound can put a significant dent into 2 units of gaunts a turn easy. So you'd definitely need the venomthropes but then a good titan player would probably target those first.

Honestly at least it's not a revenant cause you'd shouldn't ever be able to catch the thing.

Thing is though blasts can't hit flyers, so would some flyrants be a good idea for this?

 n0t_u wrote:
A warhound can put a significant dent into 2 units of gaunts a turn easy. So you'd definitely need the venomthropes but then a good titan player would probably target those first.

Honestly at least it's not a revenant cause you'd shouldn't ever be able to catch the thing.

Thing is though blasts can't hit flyers, so would some flyrants be a good idea for this?

Again, yes it could, but why? You don't use anti-tank weaponry to kill light infantry. D weapons will blow holes in monstrous creatures just as easily as they do gaunts.
And why shouldn't they be able to catch the thing? Again, assuming a 4x6 board, there's just not many places that a titan can run off too when you've got a 1x6 wall of nids marching towards you. (It IS a 3k game, after all.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Especially if the warhound is running turbo lasers as it should be, 4 blasts like that a turn will wipe off any hordes even looking at it. Best bet may be to keep things that can actually scratch it near their own stuff so it can't fire at them without hitting their own guys or by bringing a metric ton of distraction units. I'm not too familiar with 7th ed nids, just enough to know its seemingly impossible for them, but there has to be some sort of build that can keep getting guys in their face as distractions while you work around it

If you're using your D weapons to kill hordes, you're doing it wrong.

Also, a thought: Take Venomthropes. That shrouded bubble will really take the edge off of any D weapons or other big guns being fired at you.

Seems we thought the same thing.
My logic comes from using a revenant, if something can manage to tarpit it there's a lot of wasted power as you can't shoot anymore. If a reasonable sized hormagaunt unit gets into combat even with stomps the titan is probably out of the fight for at least a turn. So what I'd do obviously is keep moving to stay away, but since this guy moves a lot slower you will have to deal with that horde quickly or you'll be tarpitted for a long time as you don't have the benefit of just zooming over the things once they corner you. Since it can fire at multiple targets I'd probably be firing at least one gun at them. As for using the turbo lasers for dealing with enemy super heavies, that's like I think 4 shots. It's alright but you can get more effective and cheaper units making a warhound/revenant mostly a bug distraction unit.

 n0t_u wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Especially if the warhound is running turbo lasers as it should be, 4 blasts like that a turn will wipe off any hordes even looking at it. Best bet may be to keep things that can actually scratch it near their own stuff so it can't fire at them without hitting their own guys or by bringing a metric ton of distraction units. I'm not too familiar with 7th ed nids, just enough to know its seemingly impossible for them, but there has to be some sort of build that can keep getting guys in their face as distractions while you work around it

If you're using your D weapons to kill hordes, you're doing it wrong.

Also, a thought: Take Venomthropes. That shrouded bubble will really take the edge off of any D weapons or other big guns being fired at you.

Seems we thought the same thing.
My logic comes from using a revenant, if something can manage to tarpit it there's a lot of wasted power as you can't shoot anymore. If a reasonable sized hormagaunt unit gets into combat even with stomps the titan is probably out of the fight for at least a turn. So what I'd do obviously is keep moving to stay away, but since this guy moves a lot slower you will have to deal with that horde quickly or you'll be tarpitted for a long time as you don't have the benefit of just zooming over the things once they corner you. Since it can fire at multiple targets I'd probably be firing at least one gun at them. As for using the turbo lasers for dealing with enemy super heavies, that's like I think 4 shots. It's alright but you can get more effective and cheaper units making a warhound/revenant mostly a bug distraction unit.

;
I probably shouldn't say this here for the OPs sake, but if you take a Warhound as part of a Space Marines detachment, you can give it a Legacy of Glory so that its guns have Ignores Cover. Since nids have very few sources of invulns, that SD Ignores Cover really blows the heck out of them - Anything not in the air is going to go down, no questions asked, except maybe Zoanthropes. It's pricey as heck, but totally worth it.

But yeah, the Warhound isn't much quicker than any other super-heavy walker, and its big footprint and model shape make it very difficult to move anywhere fast. (It CAN give up its shooting to move 2d6, but... Why? Why would you EVER do that?) Wherever you start it on the board, it's probably going to stay in that general area. If you try and screen it against enemies, you're actually just going to make the problem worse, too.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Especially if the warhound is running turbo lasers as it should be, 4 blasts like that a turn will wipe off any hordes even looking at it. Best bet may be to keep things that can actually scratch it near their own stuff so it can't fire at them without hitting their own guys or by bringing a metric ton of distraction units. I'm not too familiar with 7th ed nids, just enough to know its seemingly impossible for them, but there has to be some sort of build that can keep getting guys in their face as distractions while you work around it

If you're using your D weapons to kill hordes, you're doing it wrong.

Also, a thought: Take Venomthropes. That shrouded bubble will really take the edge off of any D weapons or other big guns being fired at you.

Seems we thought the same thing.
My logic comes from using a revenant, if something can manage to tarpit it there's a lot of wasted power as you can't shoot anymore. If a reasonable sized hormagaunt unit gets into combat even with stomps the titan is probably out of the fight for at least a turn. So what I'd do obviously is keep moving to stay away, but since this guy moves a lot slower you will have to deal with that horde quickly or you'll be tarpitted for a long time as you don't have the benefit of just zooming over the things once they corner you. Since it can fire at multiple targets I'd probably be firing at least one gun at them. As for using the turbo lasers for dealing with enemy super heavies, that's like I think 4 shots. It's alright but you can get more effective and cheaper units making a warhound/revenant mostly a bug distraction unit.

;
I probably shouldn't say this here for the OPs sake, but if you take a Warhound as part of a Space Marines detachment, you can give it a Legacy of Glory so that its guns have Ignores Cover. Since nids have very few sources of invulns, that SD Ignores Cover really blows the heck out of them - Anything not in the air is going to go down, no questions asked, except maybe Zoanthropes. It's pricey as heck, but totally worth it.

But yeah, the Warhound isn't much quicker than any other super-heavy walker, and its big footprint and model shape make it very difficult to move anywhere fast. (It CAN give up its shooting to move 2d6, but... Why? Why would you EVER do that?) Wherever you start it on the board, it's probably going to stay in that general area. If you try and screen it against enemies, you're actually just going to make the problem worse, too.

Honestly the few times I've even seen a warhound it's just stood in it's deployment spot under a void shield for the entire duration of the game. I honestly can't see a reason to want to run with the thing.
Knights regularly seem to be greater threats at that point range however, like squads of them as titan hunters. Doesn't really help out the nids though.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Gaunts move 6", and have an average 8" run movement. That's 14" turn one. Turn two, they move 6", and have an average 10" charge. So, on average, you're getting 30" crossed in one turn.

First of all, where are you getting a 8" 'average' run move? If he's running hormagaunts, than yep but they're quite expensive, very fragile and can't even shoot stuff. If you're leaving your big shooty titan in the open without support and ain't shooting at stuff that's easy to kill...well, probably your titan deserves to get tarpitted.

I understand how it can be problematic vs magic lists with soulswaps and flying ruins. There you could have a unit of cultists or zombies and a sorc charge and tarpit stuff turn one. But that's more of a magic problem - not the problem of cheap tarpitters as is.

 koooaei wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Gaunts move 6", and have an average 8" run movement. That's 14" turn one. Turn two, they move 6", and have an average 10" charge. So, on average, you're getting 30" crossed in one turn.

First of all, where are you getting a 8" 'average' run move? If he's running hormagaunts, than yep but they're quite expensive, very fragile and can't even shoot stuff. If you're leaving your big shooty titan in the open without support and ain't shooting at stuff that's easy to kill...well, probably your titan deserves to get tarpitted.

I understand how it can be problematic vs magic lists with soulswaps and flying ruins. There you could have a unit of cultists or zombies and a sorc charge and tarpit stuff turn one. But that's more of a magic problem - not the problem of cheap tarpitters as is.

Fleet and +3". 'Average' roll on 2 dice is kinda hard to calculate, but one result of 5 or 6 is more likely to happen than not. So, rolling a 5, +3. 8".
And why do you keep acting like the Warhound has a ton of support units, but the gaunts are being played solo in a vacuum?

Flying around big big things that can´t be touched by the titan and reducing the casting players Ld by 3 for the perils will kill invis off soon enough.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Gaunts move 6", and have an average 8" run movement. That's 14" turn one. Turn two, they move 6", and have an average 10" charge. So, on average, you're getting 30" crossed in one turn.

First of all, where are you getting a 8" 'average' run move? If he's running hormagaunts, than yep but they're quite expensive, very fragile and can't even shoot stuff. If you're leaving your big shooty titan in the open without support and ain't shooting at stuff that's easy to kill...well, probably your titan deserves to get tarpitted.

I understand how it can be problematic vs magic lists with soulswaps and flying ruins. There you could have a unit of cultists or zombies and a sorc charge and tarpit stuff turn one. But that's more of a magic problem - not the problem of cheap tarpitters as is.

Fleet and +3". 'Average' roll on 2 dice is kinda hard to calculate, but one result of 5 or 6 is more likely to happen than not. So, rolling a 5, +3. 8".
And why do you keep acting like the Warhound has a ton of support units, but the gaunts are being played solo in a vacuum?

If you manage to get your shooty knight tarpitted by something as mediocre as a footslogging horde, you're doing it wrong.

A few thoughts:

1. He as to roll for his psychic powers and actually GET Invisibility. Make sure he rolls it in front of everyone and doesn't "fast roll" when people are setting up. At 3000 points, he'll have enough eldar witches to go fishing for it, though.

2. Don't play kill points. Make sure there are objectives. Maelstrom Missions, while silly, can actually be an equalizer in these kinds of games. Drunken Captain shenanigans a-go-go!

3. Ignore it. Kill his scoring units, including the caster buffing the titan. Play the MISSION. Get those points!

4. Bring those flying MC's and GMC's that can't be targeted by blasts when they are in the air!

Good luck!

So this is the problem with online theory crafting. In theory, "throw gaunts at it" works as a counter for high value targets. In practice, it does not if your opponent has any skill at all with positioning, screening and cover.

Average roll on a dice is 3.5, and that is not hard to calculate. It's in fact rigorous and precise.

Guys, if you want to know how to kill deathstar units, look to the people who actually play against deathstar armies, and it turns out, you have to have your own deathstar, hence competitive being mainly a competition between cheese tweaked deathstar builds. That's what practical experience says anyway.

Continue theory crafting how to 400 pts of paper targets into HtH with the centerpiece of a 3000pt deathball if you want, but the research has been done.

cod3x wrote:
So this is the problem with online theory crafting. In theory, "throw gaunts at it" works as a counter for high value targets. In practice, it does not if your opponent has any skill at all with positioning, screening and cover.

Average roll on a dice is 3.5, and that is not hard to calculate. It's in fact rigorous and precise.

That's average roll on one dice. What's the exact average when you're picking the highest of two dice?

And that screening might not be as easy as you think. From the looks of it, his opponent is running Space Marines - It's the best way to get psyker spam like he's mentioned. Space Marines don't exactly have uner-cheap screening units. If he takes a decurion it *might* work, but at 3k he'd really need to take two full decurions to get proper model saturation. One decurion won't be a cakewalk, but it also won't be impossible to get through by any means.

Can't remember seeing footslogging hordes win a game in like a year.

Waaaghpower wrote:

cod3x wrote:
So this is the problem with online theory crafting. In theory, "throw gaunts at it" works as a counter for high value targets. In practice, it does not if your opponent has any skill at all with positioning, screening and cover.

Average roll on a dice is 3.5, and that is not hard to calculate. It's in fact rigorous and precise.

That's average roll on one dice. What's the exact average when you're picking the highest of two dice?

And that screening might not be as easy as you think. From the looks of it, his opponent is running Space Marines - It's the best way to get psyker spam like he's mentioned. Space Marines don't exactly have uner-cheap screening units. If he takes a decurion it *might* work, but at 3k he'd really need to take two full decurions to get proper model saturation. One decurion won't be a cakewalk, but it also won't be impossible to get through by any means.

You aren´t throwing 2 dice. it´s 1 dice rerolled. Would you reroll the 4 in hope of a 5 or 6 or do you accept the slightly over average??

As for screening 3 imperial Knights would do pretty well and combined would take up just over 1/2 the points

SkellyBones wrote:
Ok so I'm having a game with 4 friends that we use for bragging rights in our town, I am a heavy 'Nids player even after 7edition nerfs (And some buffs) My friend that I'm concerned about fighting is going for a very Tzeechy army and is bringing a Warhound titan (3000 pts game) he has let us know that it will, after some psychic hi-jinks be invisible too. Needless to say I have NO FREAKING IDEA HOW TO PUT THAT THING DOWN, I have been told to kill the psyker casting the power but 3++ save and he wil be in the backlines VERY protected, the only thing I can think of is Mawloc spam him with TFTD rule until he's dead. But then I have a Warhound titan to still worry about (He is using the LB destroyer weapons on either arm) How am I gonna fight this guys?

take 1500 points of genestealer cult, get some 6s on the ambush chart. Charge and lock him up. Denying him shooting for a few turns means he wont get his points back which will be a tactical advantage for your team.

 koooaei wrote:
Can't remember seeing footslogging hordes win a game in like a year.

I can!

I'm also a fan of the Gaunt cloud strategy. For 3000 points, if I had the models, I'd be all over that.

How many wraithknights can you fit in 3000 points? :^)

jSewell wrote:
How many wraithknights can you fit in 3000 points? :^)

Ten, but OP plays Tyranids so this isn't relevant at all.