Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, 2 rules questions:

- Castellans has a list of units allowed for the detachment.

- SM Bikes are listed under Fast

- C:SM Bikes changed to a battlefield role of troops when you take a character on a bike



1) Does that mean you can use bikes to fill the troop slot for Castellans even though they aren't explicitly listed?

2) Does that mean that if the above is not a yes, and you take bikes as 'FA' anyway in Castellans, but have a character on bike that they count as Troops for the purpose of the special rule allowing you to respawn them.



rules

Tricky. As they are in the classic troops /elites/fast attack format, I'd say yes. But you could argue that the unit lists are a restriction to each section.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Tricky. As they are in the classic troops /elites/fast attack format, I'd say yes. But you could argue that the unit lists are a restriction to each section.

That's basically the argument.

Personally, I think you could, but I think the less powerful interpretation is that they don't count for filling the requirements but do count as troops for respawn.

Rules are clear their Battlefield Role changes, so they would become Troops.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Rules are clear their Battlefield Role changes, so they would become Troops.

But the question is, can they be taken AS troops in this Detachment?

They can clearly be taken as Fast Attack, however, this Detachment has a specific list of what units are available as Troops.

I would also go with the interpretation that although they become technically a Troops choice, they are listed as a fast attack choice for this detachment and changing their battlefield role doesn't change the list (at least we can't assume, they are available as Troops since they are not on the list for Troops). However they can't be stopped from being Troops, so they can respawn.

I would say no, (for a tournament or competitive game) as the bikes becoming troop choices is through the space marine codex/formation, and since this is a meta detachment*, I would assume it would lose its transfer.

That being said, I personally am okay with it, as it actually fluffy, (say they are white scars or what have you). Generally anything that gives more options is a good thing.

*Meta meaning a new formation/detachment using these listed models. Though to be fair it does say still use all options rules and whatnot of each codex. So my interpretation could easily be wrong.

For example, you only gain the troops choice transfer when taking a CAD for space marines, if you take a formation or a conglomerate of other formations/detachments, you wouldn't get that option as youre not running a CAD. That's my reasoning anyhow.

That doesn't make a lot of sense though. The rule is part of the Bike Squad itself and not the detachments in C:SM.

Stop thinking of the lists as set in stone. The 1st line of the detachment would argue otherwise. "The Castellans of the Imperium Detachment Army List divides the units available into several categories, according to their Battlefield Role." So if the battlefield role of the units change, so do the lists. The second line tells us we must use all the special rules on the datasheet as presented in the codex so its not optional. Since the bikes are an available unit we are OK to take them.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Stop thinking of the lists as set in stone. The 1st line of the detachment would argue otherwise. "The Castellans of the Imperium Detachment Army List divides the units available into several categories, according to their Battlefield Role." So if the battlefield role of the units change, so do the lists. The second line tells us we must use all the special rules on the datasheet as presented in the codex so its not optional. Since the bikes are an available unit we are OK to take them.

Except with detachments they are set in stone. Those are the only units you can take for the listed battlefield role. Bike are a available unit for fast attack, not troops. The list divides the units available into catagories according to their role, not the list divides the units available to use.

I think this clearly works fine.

The detachment specifically references that the Bike Squad is the unit from Codex Space Marines, which specifically describes the Mounted Assault rule, making them troops if you take an HQ on a bike.

The CAD does exactly the same thing.

What are they meant to do, put an asterisk next to Bike Squad and detail the mounted assault rule every time they mention it? Or explain that yes, the standard rules also count in this detachment?

No... there battlefield role might change but they are restricted by the Decurion List. Tactical squads and Scouts are the only units listed under troops. Bikes are not.

This detatchment prevents you from even being able to make your fast attack bikes into troops even if you take a character on bike.

 zedsdead wrote:
No... there battlefield role might change but they are restricted by the Decurion List. Tactical squads and Scouts are the only units listed under troops. Bikes are not.

This detatchment prevents you from even being able to make your fast attack bikes into troops even if you take a character on bike.

I'm afraid I still don't think you are correct here. I can't see where you are getting this new restriction from.

Castellans Detachment first provides you with an army list, which shows the valid units listed by role.

It then says you MUST take 4+ troops and 0-6 fast attack units
A valid option for fast attack is bikes, so I choose 1

Hence my detachment is now
HQ: 0
Troops: 0
Fast Attack: 1 x Space Marine Bikes.

I now choose an HQ on a bike and go read the "mounted assault" rule,
"Mounted Assault: if a unit with this special rule is chosen as part of a detachment that contains at least 1 IC with the SM faction equipped with a bike, this unit's battlefield role changes to troop".
Note not "may change" but "changes". It's not a choice.

They now take 1 of your 4 troop slots

It works in the exact same way as a CAD, except the Castellans unit is not limited to 1 faction so it has to explain exactly which codexes and units are acceptable - e.g. space marines yes, cult mech no.

Hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as patronising!!!

yes but not "any" troops. Troops are still listed by type in the Troop list.

if that was the case they would just list SM Troops. not the specific ones.

only Tactical Marines and Scouts are listed..hence the only ones allowed. Not Bike Troops

The List above restricts any force org reshuffling.. I think this was intentional.

I don't think it is that clear cut.

Gathering Storm - Fall of Cadia wrote:
The Castellans of the Imperium Detachment Army List divides the units available into several categories, according to their Battlefield Role.

This can be read two ways.

1. That there are a number of lists and that only units in this list can be taken in that role.

2. These are the units available and they have been divided into lists based on their combat role.

Mounted assault is not an option. If you take an independant character on a bike than bikes are troops.

If you take number 1 to be true it means that you can never take both a space marine independent character on a bike, and bike squads.

If you take number 2 to be true then you can bring both.

Rules as intended I think is number 2. I doubt GW meant for taking a captain on a bike to disallow bike squads. It's more in line with the fluff, and just the general mindset that GW tends to have.

option #1 doesn't exclude ICs from taking bikes.

Silentz wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
No... there battlefield role might change but they are restricted by the Decurion List. Tactical squads and Scouts are the only units listed under troops. Bikes are not.

This detatchment prevents you from even being able to make your fast attack bikes into troops even if you take a character on bike.

I'm afraid I still don't think you are correct here. I can't see where you are getting this new restriction from.

Castellans Detachment first provides you with an army list, which shows the valid units listed by role.

It then says you MUST take 4+ troops and 0-6 fast attack units
A valid option for fast attack is bikes, so I choose 1

Hence my detachment is now
HQ: 0
Troops: 0
Fast Attack: 1 x Space Marine Bikes.

I now choose an HQ on a bike and go read the "mounted assault" rule,
"Mounted Assault: if a unit with this special rule is chosen as part of a detachment that contains at least 1 IC with the SM faction equipped with a bike, this unit's battlefield role changes to troop".
Note not "may change" but "changes". It's not a choice.

They now take 1 of your 4 troop slots

It works in the exact same way as a CAD, except the Castellans unit is not limited to 1 faction so it has to explain exactly which codexes and units are acceptable - e.g. space marines yes, cult mech no.

Hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as patronising!!!

bikes are not listed as a choice for troops. Detatchments list what units can be taken for what battlefield role. if you try to take the bikes as a troop choice you are breaking the rule for what units are taken for troops for detatchments.

 zedsdead wrote:
option #1 doesn't exclude ICs from taking bikes.

No but it does exclude bike squads if you take a space marine IC with a bike

Goddamit gw, learn how to play your own fricken game.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
I would also go with the interpretation that although they become technically a Troops choice, they are listed as a fast attack choice for this detachment and changing their battlefield role doesn't change the list (at least we can't assume, they are available as Troops since they are not on the list for Troops). However they can't be stopped from being Troops, so they can respawn.

I think this is the most reasonable interpretation given the RAW. I'm pretty sure this is not how they were intended (although I can't tell whether they can be taken as troops or they can't become troops is the intent or for that matter if GW thought of it... after all how could they have forseen someone picking bikes in a SM formation ).

 pretre wrote:
That doesn't make a lot of sense though. The rule is part of the Bike Squad itself and not the detachments in C:SM.

I'm sorry, I'll try to explain my reasoning better.

The detachments are often more strict than CAD for obvious reasons and for written ones. And this detachment actually lists space marine bikes, from the space marine codex to be considered fast attack. To me, that pretty much is the end point, but as I tried to state earlier, I personally would allow it, as its gives more options and is fluffy. However, I don't think its meant to do that, nor do I think tournaments would allow it.

I could be wrong, and mounted assault may apply*, I'm just saying why I don't think thats how it was intended or technically should be read. As the space marine bikes becoming troops is a benefit conferred via the CAD from the Space marine codex, if you remove that CAD and take this detachment instead you no longer get the Space Marine CAD benefits.

*However, mounted assault does state, that if a independent character takes a bike they count as troops instead. The wording here says "part of a detachment" not specifically a CAD or only space marine formations but "a" detachment, implies that it could be used here. That is why I am hesitant to say yay or nay. As often detachments have very strict rules, but this one in particular seems to be quite generous and enveloping. I personally would allow it, but am not sure if its what was intended.

 Tsol wrote:

The detachments are often more strict than CAD for obvious reasons and for written ones. And this detachment actually lists space marine bikes, from the space marine codex to be considered fast attack. To me, that pretty much is the end point, but as I tried to state earlier, I personally would allow it, as its gives more options and is fluffy. However, I don't think its meant to do that, nor do I think tournaments would allow it.

I could be wrong, and mounted assault may apply*, I'm just saying why I don't think thats how it was intended or technically should be read. As the space marine bikes becoming troops is a benefit conferred via the CAD from the Space marine codex, if you remove that CAD and take this detachment instead you no longer get the Space Marine CAD benefits.

*However, mounted assault does state, that if a independent character takes a bike they count as troops instead. The wording here says "part of a detachment" not specifically a CAD or only space marine formations but "a" detachment, implies that it could be used here. That is why I am hesitant to say yay or nay. As often detachments have very strict rules, but this one in particular seems to be quite generous and enveloping. I personally would allow it, but am not sure if its what was intended.

Haha I think you sort of realised the real answer halfway through writing that but didn't commit to it.

This part of your statement is not true...

As the space marine bikes becoming troops is a benefit conferred via the CAD from the Space marine codex

Mounted Assault has nothing to do with a CAD - it's a rule that applies to all detachments which are BRB style where you select units by force org slot. This is in contrast to the "detachment of detachments" or "Decurion" style. So Mounted Assault for example does not benefit you in the Gladius, because that doesn't say "pick 3 troops" it says "pick 3 tactical squads". Even if your bikes become troops, you can't swap anything out for them.

As you correctly said, some detachments are far more restrictive. However... this ain't one!

Just like Castellans, the CAD and Allied Detachments have an army list... which is the single faction codex you select (e.g. Space Marines). Within that Codex, Bikes are listed as Fast Attack. When you take an HQ, they become Troops.

There's nothing in Castellans that changes the rules about Mounted Assault in any way. Castellans is an old-style/CAD-style detachment, not a new-style Decurion detachment. If it works for a CAD, it works for this one.

Ignoring all the discussion (I am very eager to give my opinion)

The way I see it, the bikes as troops is a special note for the space marine characters.

If you take that character, he doesn't leave the special note behind when you take him castellans of the Imperium.

Bikes are still listed as FA in a CAD, just as they are in Castellans of the Imperium.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Ignoring all the discussion (I am very eager to give my opinion)

The way I see it, the bikes as troops is a special note for the space marine characters.

If you take that character, he doesn't leave the special note behind when you take him castellans of the Imperium.

Bikes are still listed as FA in a CAD, just as they are in Castellans of the Imperium.

the difference between a CAD and a formation is the list for what units/models can be taken. under the fast attack section for castellans it list the bikes, it does not like them under troops. you can't take units that aren't listed in a formationt for that role unless its a DT(for a unit already listed for that slot). there is no such restriction for CAD

Yeah. To me this seems similar to the way that you can't take some FW units for those factions because they're not listed in the list (until/unless FW or your tournament organizer/friend you're playing against specifically allows them in this context). In a way it feels like adding the explicit list restricts that formation.

Though I suppose this would also add some questions such as do the Ministorum Priest/Battle Conclave restrictions from the Adepta Sororitas book apply? In that book priests don't take a up a lot and you can have up to 5 of them. Battle conclaves are up to one per priest and also don't take up a slot. So can I now take 2-14 HQ choices as long as 10 of them a priests/battle conclaves? (Actually this one makes more sense RAW given that those choices stay in their respective force org slots.)

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah. To me this seems similar to the way that you can't take some FW units for those factions because they're not listed in the list (until/unless FW or your tournament organizer/friend you're playing against specifically allows them in this context). In a way it feels like adding the explicit list restricts that formation.

Except this is totally different since bikes ARE listed in the list.

Though I suppose this would also add some questions such as do the Ministorum Priest/Battle Conclave restrictions from the Adepta Sororitas book apply? In that book priests don't take a up a lot and you can have up to 5 of them. Battle conclaves are up to one per priest and also don't take up a slot. So can I now take 2-14 HQ choices as long as 10 of them a priests/battle conclaves? (Actually this one makes more sense RAW given that those choices stay in their respective force org slots.)

Yep. Same with techmarines for iron hands, etc so on. Some are allowed in any detachment outside of the requirements.

Oberron wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Ignoring all the discussion (I am very eager to give my opinion)

The way I see it, the bikes as troops is a special note for the space marine characters.

If you take that character, he doesn't leave the special note behind when you take him castellans of the Imperium.

Bikes are still listed as FA in a CAD, just as they are in Castellans of the Imperium.

the difference between a CAD and a formation is the list for what units/models can be taken. under the fast attack section for castellans it list the bikes, it does not like them under troops. you can't take units that aren't listed in a formationt for that role unless its a DT(for a unit already listed for that slot). there is no such restriction for CAD

Correct, and to be clear to people reading the thread - Castellans of the Imperium is not a formation, it is a Detachment. It is not subject to the restrictions you describe and acts in exactly the same way as the CAD.

I updated the title to reflect that.

Silentz wrote:

 Tsol wrote:

The detachments are often more strict than CAD for obvious reasons and for written ones. And this detachment actually lists space marine bikes, from the space marine codex to be considered fast attack. To me, that pretty much is the end point, but as I tried to state earlier, I personally would allow it, as its gives more options and is fluffy. However, I don't think its meant to do that, nor do I think tournaments would allow it.

I could be wrong, and mounted assault may apply*, I'm just saying why I don't think thats how it was intended or technically should be read. As the space marine bikes becoming troops is a benefit conferred via the CAD from the Space marine codex, if you remove that CAD and take this detachment instead you no longer get the Space Marine CAD benefits.

*However, mounted assault does state, that if a independent character takes a bike they count as troops instead. The wording here says "part of a detachment" not specifically a CAD or only space marine formations but "a" detachment, implies that it could be used here. That is why I am hesitant to say yay or nay. As often detachments have very strict rules, but this one in particular seems to be quite generous and enveloping. I personally would allow it, but am not sure if its what was intended.

Haha I think you sort of realised the real answer halfway through writing that but didn't commit to it.

This part of your statement is not true...

As the space marine bikes becoming troops is a benefit conferred via the CAD from the Space marine codex

Mounted Assault has nothing to do with a CAD - it's a rule that applies to all detachments which are BRB style where you select units by force org slot. This is in contrast to the "detachment of detachments" or "Decurion" style. So Mounted Assault for example does not benefit you in the Gladius, because that doesn't say "pick 3 troops" it says "pick 3 tactical squads". Even if your bikes become troops, you can't swap anything out for them.

As you correctly said, some detachments are far more restrictive. However... this ain't one!

Just like Castellans, the CAD and Allied Detachments have an army list... which is the single faction codex you select (e.g. Space Marines). Within that Codex, Bikes are listed as Fast Attack. When you take an HQ, they become Troops.

There's nothing in Castellans that changes the rules about Mounted Assault in any way. Castellans is an old-style/CAD-style detachment, not a new-style Decurion detachment. If it works for a CAD, it works for this one.

Yes and no. I was flaky to begin with and still am. I understand the thought and even the lore, but I try to always follow occums razor and follow rules as presented. The new formation lists space marine bikes as FA, but the space marine codex says the bike become troops inside of their detachment if the independent character is. I'm only going with my original knee jerk reaction because generally speaking, follow the detachment rules as given, which often ignore or do not incorporate codex formation abilities. As I've said twice, I'd allow it and I think its a bit of a grouchy thing to say no to, but I can see both sides of this, but I still think because this detachment says bikes are FA, they should stay so.

As an interesting aside, due to your point about the Space Marine Codex, CAD benfits supersedes other detachments rules, I must disagree wholeheartedly. With the exception of what we are currently talking about, because the bikes themselves have a speical rule, which makes the inference were talking about, due to their wording and being a rule.

Trust me, I would love to deploy 6 groups of bikes with a fair chance they'll come back, but despite my hoard of bikes, (as I have about 30) I would always defer to my opponent if they would allow it.

I personally would not be upset if this was FAQ either way, but I can tell you if a Necron player came to me with a special rule in their codex with says elites under the Necron CAD became troops, but he has a new Detachment which lists those elite units as elites and he would try to contest this based on his codex, I would say no, your detachment lists them as elites. That is why I'm sadly still leaning ways from being troops.

 Tsol wrote:
I personally would not be upset if this was FAQ either way, but I can tell you if a Necron player came to me with a special rule in their codex with says elites under the Necron CAD became troops, but he has a new Detachment which lists those elite units as elites and he would try to contest this based on his codex, I would say no, your detachment lists them as elites. That is why I'm sadly still leaning ways from being troops.

The thing is that the special rule which makes bikes become Troops is not specific to any kind of detachment. It says nothing about Combined Arms Detachment or any other kind of detachment. If you have a Battle Demi-company with a captain on a Space Marine bike and take a unit of bikers they too will have the Troops battlefield role.

This detachment lists them as Fast Attack just like Codex: Space Marines.