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#1: This isn't a thread for bashing.

For the simple exercise of doing it, lets find similarities between the two stories so far?


Here's what I've got. I'll edit the synopsis in this post as more stuff is added.

"As the clock runs closer to midnight, Chaos forces rally behind Archeon/Abbadon, a warrior with the blessings of all four chaos gods, in a final great crusade to dominate the world/cosmos. When all looks lost for the Empire/Imperium, an unlikely savior, the undead/unliving liche/necron Nagash/Trazyn shows up in the midnight hour.

A struggle ensues as many heroes arrive, trying to head off the final push of chaos. The Grand Marshall/ Castellan Creed, fights to the bitter end. Elsewhere, a heroic rescue of the doubtful queen/inquistor Alarielle/Greyfax commences, adding a brave new hero to the fight. Elsewhere, a brave pair of elves/eldar make a push to even the scales, as Teclis/Eldrad and Malekith/Shadowspear engage in a desperate mission.

Now, an unlikely alliance of Incarnates/Perpetuals must face the darkness at the zero hour. It is truly the Time of Ends.

Except Archeon is a proper champion of chaos that gets stuff done. Abbadon is an armless failure with a series of crushing defeats that later needed a ham-fisted update detailing how despite being demolished and kicked back to the warp Abbadon accomplished some paltry goal but just you wait, next time he's going to be a threat.....for real this time......honest.

There will not be a end times on the level of Fantasy becuase it was one of the most poorly received, and most atrocious ass pull ever done in a fantasy setting.

40k is GW's golden goose, they learned with AoS that just nuking the setting is a dumb idea.

Your going to see IoM losses and the death of some big named characters, but nothing on the scale of AoS.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Except Archeon is a proper champion of chaos that gets stuff done. Abbadon is an armless failure with a series of crushing defeats that later needed a ham-fisted update detailing how despite being demolished and kicked back to the warp Abbadon accomplished some paltry goal but just you wait, next time he's going to be a threat.....for real this time......honest.

Except those details had been there since day one (read: second ed) except for goddam 4th edition. Cadia had never been the real target.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Except Archeon is a proper champion of chaos that gets stuff done. Abbadon is an armless failure with a series of crushing defeats that later needed a ham-fisted update detailing how despite being demolished and kicked back to the warp Abbadon accomplished some paltry goal but just you wait, next time he's going to be a threat.....for real this time......honest.

Except those details had been there since day one (read: second ed) except for goddam 4th edition. Cadia had never been the real target.

Eh you need to be careful when quoting second and RT lost of that stuff got decanonized, or changed heavily.

Oh there is a lot more than that!

The build up to the end times is set in motion by one of the most powerful sorcerers in the setting getting off his ass and plotting revenge against the scoions of his greatest rival the their home nation. Magnus = Nagash

The religious figure head (Fey Enchantress = Space Pope) of the smaller more noble-bright faction (Brettionians=Tau) compared to the protagonist faction (Imperium=Empire) is assasinated.

The initial Chaos incursion was technically a failure although in truth they've weakened the borders of the protagonist faction substantially. (Fall of Cadia=Glotkin)

With Rhana Dandra on the way the remaining 3 militant factions of the Elves/Eldar will aid the Empire/Imperium and provide them with some subtle Ex-machina.

Eldrad is not Teclis. Teclis got gak done, Eldrad doesn't have the precognitive powers to see a single deathwatch strike force of 13 men interfere enough to destroy his races collective gestalt consciousness. Veilwalker the Harlequin shadowseer is Teclis, having orchestrated Lady Malys' crystal heart, Yriels Spear of Twilight and Vect maintaining the throne as well as directing Crawl about what to do on Cadia.

Good point about Eldrad.

Eldrad is Mannfred von Carstein. His character was assassinated and replaced by a bumbling moron.

Well we know all the primarchs are either going to be A : Killed or turned into gods.

I still think it is funny that it might be an AOS type of situation I hope the setting moves forward, but to the point of actually being more interesting.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Except Archeon is a proper champion of chaos that gets stuff done. Abbadon is an armless failure with a series of crushing defeats that later needed a ham-fisted update detailing how despite being demolished and kicked back to the warp Abbadon accomplished some paltry goal but just you wait, next time he's going to be a threat.....for real this time......honest.

Actually, with the Fall of Cadia book we now know all his "failures" were successes, he completed his goals and now he took care of the last pesky Beacon. Considering how the Eye of Terror is spreading everywhere, I don't think it's a "paltry" goal.

I'm dying of curiosity to know what Crawl is so desperately protecting to deliver.

My goodness, end times in 40k. It may happen when the Eye of Terror/Cadia will be destroyed and Daemons manifest in very large numbers. This would give 40k a restart and GW a way to resort things.

Well, so far we have one named casualty.

Jared Kell. That's it.

Everyone else survived.

But there's also the suggestion that Celestine was some kind of experiment - Celestial or not. And it's suggested said experiment ultimately failed - but not why.

I think we're seeing a shift to the setting, not an end.

Necron's may now be Tomb Kings in space but they are not Nagash.

Nagash is actually more like the Old Cron's - he wants to kill everything - he then will raise what he likes and enjoy the silence.

Trazyn has no equivalent in ET. The Vampire Morarch's are completely different

Arkyn is a loyal servant of Nagash - full stop.
Neferata hates and fears Nagash as she understands what he is and what he wants - a land of the dead has no place for Vampires and she does not want anyone ruling over her.
Mannfred is a spoilt brat in the ET novels.

Eldread and Teclis I do see - both appear to have a plan which involves them screwing up everyone else and then discovering that their grand plan is actually the thing that causes everything to be destroyed. I really did not like the ET Mannfred and Teclis but then Eldread has become a complete tool as more and more is written about him and the other Eldar characters are ignored.

Magnus as Nagash has some similarities although Nagash is totally against Chaos rather than being a servant of it.

Vecht as Malkeith - hmm maybe

Malys as Morathi- again maybe - although the latter obviously has the Slaanesh element and Malys is either something to do with the Laughing God or Tzeentch.

Malys has more in common with Arloth than Morathi, due to her close relationship with the one of the only surviving members of their pantheon.

Necrons don't have any analogy from the end times, they are 40k's wild card in my eyes.

Tyranids = Skaven, in that I mean they will be used in exactly the same way as a literary device. In Fantasy the Skaven were used to drastically decrease the scope of what the authors wrote about when talking about the end times, ''What about Cathay? Skaven ate em. What about Estalia? Tilea? Skaven. Brettonia? Skaven. Most of the Elector Counts? Nippon? Lizardmen? Skaven again''. Anything the authors didn't have a direct plan for was fed to the Skaven to shut them up, i foresee Tyranids being used in exactly the same way. To wipe the slate clean of all the characters important to the story, because everyone else is too busy fighting Hive Fleet Armageddon to help.

Orks will be used similarly, but with a bit more character and unlike Tyranids they will participate in the final battle.

I actually do hope Ghazzy succeeds in getting Gork and Mork to enter real space to unite the orks and begin the Ragnorork. Although instead of turning on the galaxy as expected they fight for the galaxy by providing the meat grinder anvil to face the Nids. The other races then work out how to strike important targets to break down the hive mind and thus be the hammer. All this whole handing Abbadon his 13th failure (but he still achieves some goal and will be a threat next time. ...promise).

 ProwlerPC wrote:
(but he still achieves some goal and will be a threat next time. ...promise).

"I'll get you next time, Inquisitor Gadget! Next time!"

*Insufferabe cat noises*

But seriously, those crusades having specific goals (and varying degrees of success) are not a recent retcon.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
(but he still achieves some goal and will be a threat next time. ...promise).

"I'll get you next time, Inquisitor Gadget! Next time!"

*Insufferabe cat noises*

But seriously, those crusades having specific goals (and varying degrees of success) are not a recent retcon.

In the eyes of many they are. Nevermind that it was stated in 2nd, 3rd and 3.5th editions. The fact that goddam thorpe in 4th edition didn't mention it has tainted the poor guy for the rest of his life.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Except Archeon is a proper champion of chaos that gets stuff done. Abbadon is an armless failure with a series of crushing defeats that later needed a ham-fisted update detailing how despite being demolished and kicked back to the warp Abbadon accomplished some paltry goal but just you wait, next time he's going to be a threat.....for real this time......honest.

Except those details had been there since day one (read: second ed) except for goddam 4th edition. Cadia had never been the real target.

Eh you need to be careful when quoting second and RT lost of that stuff got decanonized, or changed heavily.

Well unless it's specifically contradicted it's still valid. And if anything FoC reinforces that point.

tneva82 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Except Archeon is a proper champion of chaos that gets stuff done. Abbadon is an armless failure with a series of crushing defeats that later needed a ham-fisted update detailing how despite being demolished and kicked back to the warp Abbadon accomplished some paltry goal but just you wait, next time he's going to be a threat.....for real this time......honest.

Except those details had been there since day one (read: second ed) except for goddam 4th edition. Cadia had never been the real target.

Eh you need to be careful when quoting second and RT lost of that stuff got decanonized, or changed heavily.

Well unless it's specifically contradicted it's still valid. And if anything FoC reinforces that point.

Exactly, except he did not specify which point, which is why i made the general statement to be wary of citing 2nd ed and RT, "Except those details" Is not a very good indicator of what exactly from RT he is talking about, its a general word of warning, not a your wrong.