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Ugh every time I see those moderators I feel a little bad inside. What's happening with Corvus' creative direction? Are the same people even involved any more?

 Barzam wrote:
Maybe it's a Wildcat SAR vehicle? They're supposed to be the "heroic" public face of the Nomads, so I don't see them tooling aroind in flying junk heaps or retrofitted surplus vehicles like the merc arm of Corregidor probably does.

Tomcats are the heroic public face of Nomads.

Wildcats are the foulmouthed jerks who get the job done and make you hate them while they do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Ugh every time I see those moderators I feel a little bad inside. What's happening with Corvus' creative direction? Are the same people even involved any more?

Yes.

They've always done this where they basically just get some kooky idea from a film/TV show/comics and just roll with it.
That's why we had the "Lost" Regulars, the Captain America "Unknown Ranger"(the general release is in a pose an exact match from "The First Avenger" during the little newsreel segments), Van Zant from "Reign of Fire"(updated model is basically the same), etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Ugh every time I see those moderators I feel a little bad inside. What's happening with Corvus' creative direction? Are the same people even involved any more?

Yes.

They've always done this where they basically just get some kooky idea from a film/TV show/comics and just roll with it.
That's why we had the "Lost" Regulars, the Captain America "Unknown Ranger"(the general release is in a pose an exact match from "The First Avenger" during the little newsreel segments), Van Zant from "Reign of Fire"(updated model is basically the same), etc.

The "homage" stuff doesn't even bother me, I probably wouldn't notice most of them if you guys weren't so sharp. I just think these are bad models that don't follow the aesthetics and character that made me fall in love with Infinity.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
Maybe it's a Wildcat SAR vehicle? They're supposed to be the "heroic" public face of the Nomads, so I don't see them tooling aroind in flying junk heaps or retrofitted surplus vehicles like the merc arm of Corregidor probably does.

Tomcats are the heroic public face of Nomads.

Wildcats are the foulmouthed jerks who get the job done and make you hate them while they do so.

Argh, you're right. I flubbed the names. Hey, at least I got the cat part right.

I'm on my phone now, so I can't post it, but Antenociti posted another dropship. The new one is a faction neutral Haqqislam produced VTOL.

And it looks pretty sweet! http://www.barrule.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/efreet.jpg

 bantha_beast wrote:
And it looks pretty sweet!

Shame there's no rules for any of these.

Also, why is it wearing the SAS insignia?

They said that even though it's made by the same company that produces the Maghariba Guard, it's exported throughout the Human Sphere and will be usable by any of the factions. So I guess the Caledonians bought this one.

 Barzam wrote:
They said that even though it's made by the same company that produces the Maghariba Guard, it's exported throughout the Human Sphere and will be usable by any of the factions. So I guess the Caledonians bought this one.

Sure sure, but that doesn't explain why the previous one has the Russian flag on it!

I dunno. Something about the AW stuff just keeps feeling off to me, like I've seen the designs before elsewhere(aside from the whole "real world inspiration" that is) and they're just getting repurposed for Infinity.

Edit:
Hell, it's not just a Russian flag on the nose.

It also has the Spetsnaz insignia on it and cyrillic writing next to the cockpit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno. Something about the AW stuff just keeps feeling off to me, like I've seen the designs before elsewhere(aside from the whole "real world inspiration" that is) and they're just getting repurposed for Infinity.

Infinity tends to have a lot of sharp edges that make these large round designs feel a little out of place.

Looks like a mashup of a U.S. Military transport helicopter, an Aliens carrier and the UK harrier.
And not a good one, IMHO

I think that efreet looks incredible, it has a futuristic quality to it yet retains an aesthetic design that grounds it in the realms of advanced technology from the near future.
The cockpit especially resembles a contemporary, Blackhawk/Osprey-ish' helicopter.
From all of their demonstrated designs we've been shown it is by far my favourite, so much so that I'd definitely contemplate buying one as It'd look like a fun project to paint in a battered and weathered state!

"Efreet" makes me think it's Haqqi, but it may be a design sold to USAriadna.

I think I'll wait for the dimensions to be announced. I will definitely back the KS if it's able to fit on top of the dice tower made by Zen Terrain

That looks like it would/could double as a dice tower.
Nevermind. It apparently is a dice tower.

It is something that can be readily kitbashed. As far as rules go, it is terrain, so it uses the terrain rules. However it does look fitting for the AriadnaHill-Billy faction. And best of all, it can be controlled without the need to use opposable thumbs. ( The Hill-Billies haven't figured the whole opposable thumb thing out. They're still trying to master walking erect. )

 Casey's Law wrote:
Ugh every time I see those moderators I feel a little bad inside. What's happening with Corvus' creative direction? Are the same people even involved any more?

They are adequate minis, but not anything more. Just like the Bakunin starter and the ASA starter. I see the 'Collector' reference, but the others are a long stretch to my eyes ( Gamora because of the two tone hair? not to my eyes.) I think they are forcing their creativity at this point. A new concept artist-- which they are seeking-- may help, but this may be a sculptor issue.

I recall a year os so ago at a convention Bostria saying they were deliberately downplaying the 'wow' factor on line infantry and the like so when they go for a more unique troop with a high 'wow' factor it stands out more.

It certainly shows in all the new line infantry. Ghulam, Zhanshi, Fusiliers, Alguaciles, Regulars are all very... average. But then you have some other new models like the Pheasant models, the Su Jian, the Al Fasids and Azra'il, etc and there's some really, really cool looking stuff.

I feel like in a game where every unit is an asset, can act independently and change the course of events, the line infantry should have some 'wow' factor. Is it possible that Corvus are trying to move towards larger point battles with more miniatures? And is that just an inevitable fate for a skirmish game trying to make a profit in a self saturated market?

 Casey's Law wrote:
I feel like in a game where every unit is an asset, can act independently and change the course of events, the line infantry should have some 'wow' factor. Is it possible that Corvus are trying to move towards larger point battles with more miniatures? And is that just an inevitable fate for a skirmish game trying to make a profit in a self saturated market?

They also said that Infinity will not move to a larger scale. It's a skirmish game and will remain that way. Though, it's worth mentioning that N3 already upped the model count by dropping a whole lot of units in price, generally increasing lists in size by a few models or allowing more specialised units. With Haqqislam, I went from having a throwaway second combat group with a couple of Kum in N2 to having two fully capable 8 order combat groups without even trying to spam anything cheap. But, it's obviously still a skirmish game.

It's more just that they want the models they want to have 'wow' factor to really stand out. It's not to say the line infantry are bad - I still think the female Ghulam from the new starter is one of the best female infantry models on the market, the pose is just fantastic. But the line infantry are just that. They're grunts.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I feel like in a game where every unit is an asset, can act independently and change the course of events, the line infantry should have some 'wow' factor. Is it possible that Corvus are trying to move towards larger point battles with more miniatures? And is that just an inevitable fate for a skirmish game trying to make a profit in a self saturated market?

Well if the company producing the game has no sound plan and understanding of the market, then yes, they need to move in large battles, others can just plan ahead and work with their release schedule, the "inevitable fate" is far from inevitable, I don't know why people keep saying so, GW moved to bigger battles because their acquisition by Kirby forced them to sell more models and as priestly said in an interview 3rd edition was meant to be a skirmish game until 6 months before printing the accounting department demanded the game to require twice as many models (hence why people playing 40k play Prieslies home-brew ww2 15mm game re-skinned for post apocalyptic scifi battles), the other inevitability was big red R and the majority of reports spoke of a company with great art direction, but not great financial management....

N3 brought a re-balancing across the board, things got their cost down, because the expensive models were too expensive and needed to be brought down and since everything is tied to the same point cost matrix quite a few profiles dropped down in price, it was a side effect that pushed the game from the solid 10+1-3 to the still played back then but not that usual 10+5 combat group and not some planning to increase the model count of the game.

The above been said I really have to point out that the rules break point of Infinity is above 20 models (above 16 already pushes it), no large scale game can be played with Infinity rules the interactions and ARO will be way too much.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if they moved to larger battles, a 15mm game with an entirely separate rules set would be utterly fantastic. You'd have Infinity for your small scale skirmishes and black ops missions, the 15mm game for your larger scale battles where you could have many squads and groups of TAGs battling it out (plus the CB's partners would probably love to make some 15mm terrain to sell too), and the RPG for small groups telling more intimate stories with characters.

15mm would be fantastic, we can only hope for that though.

Yeah, I'm not expecting it. But they've been teasing it for years now, most recently with their 'shameless market research' sections of their panels.

Thanks for the input guys. Those really were open questions though, I wasn't implying anything. The first thing I noticed coming back was the point value drop and I know that other games have increased their model count over time. I'm still not sure why they would choose to drop points rather than raise them if it wasn't at least a little about money though.

Personally I'd be extremely unimpressed with a second 15mm system. I'm in it 75% of the way for the models and the final 25% for a skirmish game. I don't think they have the resources to take on a project like that when they have loads of tiny gaps in their line and miniatures in desperate need of resculpts. When they have every miniature up to date and an option for each profile then they could think about spreading their resources, until then it's just going to rub people the wrong way. I guess they could license a 15mm game to someone else but I'm not sure if they would want to take any miniature production out of house.

Bear in mind that for this year's ITS, called TAGline, CB introduced the 'Limited Insertion' option for tournament play. It limits players to 1 combat group ( 10 units maximum). That's not the sort of thing a company does if it wants higher model count games.

Govad HMG coming next week. The best, saved for last.

I didn't know that, Red Harvest, thanks for the info. That's certainly paints a more positive picture of where they are going. I've often wondered if they should have done away with multiple combat groups altogether and just made certain units not count towards the total. Feels like a more elegant solution with the same outcome to me but I'm no competitive gamer.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I'm still not sure why they would choose to drop points rather than raise them if it wasn't at least a little about money though.

It was about money, but not the way you think. The expensive units, usually HI and TAGs but sometimes hyper specialised MI and LI, didn't get fielded as often as CB liked because, well, they were too expensive. You'd only fit a couple in a list, so people were more circumspect about used, and thus, bought. It also meant things like HI links were simply out of the question. Look back to 2nd edition, and think of, for example, a Jannisary link. With 2 special weapons (counting the HMG twice because they didn't have the missile launcher option) and a Doctor, the link was roughly 230pts and 4SWC. That left 70 points, which if you wanted a 10 model list, you're averaging 14 points per model, or a bunch of Ghulam. A Jannisary link, who are essentially beefed up basic Infantry, was pretty much out of the question.

A Jannisary link with HMG, Missile Launcher, Ackbar Doctor, AP Rifle and Boarding Shotgun with Tinbot, you're looking at 186pts and 4.5SWC. SWC is higher, but you're getting a Tinbot which makes them harder to hack, you're getting more varied special weapons, a much better Doctor and a Boarding Shotgun for people getting too close (granted, the link also has two Light Shotguns). It's noticeably better, but Jannisary links in 2nd edition weren't that hot for their premium price. The price in points is much more manageable, you're looking at an average of 22pts for each of the 5 remaining model in a single combat group list. Or if you bring a couple of Ghulam, there's a couple of spots left for some more expensive supporting units. This makes Jannisarys a more attractive purchase, because you can now build a more viable list around them.

The price drop was across the board, but the most affected units were those that were so prohibitively expensive in 2nd edition. More than allowing spam armies in 3rd edition, it opened up many more options with list building. And as said, with the limited insertion option, it lets you build a truly elite 10 model list, which is kind of the heart of the idea of the game.

Fantastic explanation thank you, Loki. Very informative and the example was very helpful.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
I'm still not sure why they would choose to drop points rather than raise them if it wasn't at least a little about money though.

It was about money, but not the way you think. The expensive units, usually HI and TAGs but sometimes hyper specialised MI and LI, didn't get fielded as often as CB liked because, well, they were too expensive. You'd only fit a couple in a list, so people were more circumspect about used, and thus, bought. It also meant things like HI links were simply out of the question. Look back to 2nd edition, and think of, for example, a Jannisary link. With 2 special weapons (counting the HMG twice because they didn't have the missile launcher option) and a Doctor, the link was roughly 230pts and 4SWC. That left 70 points, which if you wanted a 10 model list, you're averaging 14 points per model, or a bunch of Ghulam. A Jannisary link, who are essentially beefed up basic Infantry, was pretty much out of the question.

A Jannisary link with HMG, Missile Launcher, Ackbar Doctor, AP Rifle and Boarding Shotgun with Tinbot, you're looking at 186pts and 4.5SWC. SWC is higher, but you're getting a Tinbot which makes them harder to hack, you're getting more varied special weapons, a much better Doctor and a Boarding Shotgun for people getting too close (granted, the link also has two Light Shotguns). It's noticeably better, but Jannisary links in 2nd edition weren't that hot for their premium price. The price in points is much more manageable, you're looking at an average of 22pts for each of the 5 remaining model in a single combat group list. Or if you bring a couple of Ghulam, there's a couple of spots left for some more expensive supporting units. This makes Jannisarys a more attractive purchase, because you can now build a more viable list around them.

The price drop was across the board, but the most affected units were those that were so prohibitively expensive in 2nd edition. More than allowing spam armies in 3rd edition, it opened up many more options with list building. And as said, with the limited insertion option, it lets you build a truly elite 10 model list, which is kind of the heart of the idea of the game.

Yes, but TAGS are still not really viable choices in many situations... maybe the TAGline changes will make them more common choices.

I think Limited Insertion really has brought the TAGs and HI Links more than anything else.

Limited Insertion and the reduced cost of HI links has brought HI links out. If they didn't get their cost reduced in N3, Limited Insertion wouldn't have made people use them more.

TAGs are another kettle of fish. HI links (nd links in general) have got some huge benefits over them. More weapon variety, specialist variety, more wounds, easier to get cover - which in turn can bring some HI links ARM up to light and medium TAG levels - and more. They have their own weaknesses, like non-HI links being 1 shot killed by templates, but not enough to offset all that.

TAG pilots getting specialist profiles is helping, but it remains to be seen just how much. It was obvious TAGs themselves were not going to become specialists again, so specialist profiles for their pilots is a good compromise and means mounting and dismounting is a thing that happens without the use of Expel.

Whether TAGs become a bit more commonly seen will take some time for people to get used to the new rules, but I'm glad CB is making the effort.