Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Celestine is pretty damn versatile, durable for her cost, and fairly easy to slot into any Imperial army. The question is how to break her?

The most immediate thought would be slotting her into a Wolfstar/Barkstar. A basic unit of Fenrisian Wolves, two Iron Priests w/ Cyberwolves, and Celestine combine into perhaps the most efficient stand-alone bully in the game, capable of being buffed as one, or splitting off to finish off the enemy, while having Hit and Run that's effectively immune to being removed.

Are there any other notable standout combos out there?

Not hugely nasty but tempted to deep strike her with scion command squads to add durability and a charge deterrent along with hit and run if worse comes to worse.

Have you thought about Sicarian Infiltrators with taser goads?
She can keep them alive longer than they usually last and grant them furious charge on their first assault, plus they are fast enough to roll with her. The downside is she will have majority T3.
But when they charge they will usually be hitting first and with omniscient mask will get an average of 28 st7 HITS (not attacks) on the charge. Enough to do an average of 4.8hps on a Knight for example. That of course doesnt include her and her bodyguards attacks who will also benefit from the opponents nerfs the Infiltrators bring (plus her armourbane will finish that Knight off before it even attacks). Hit and run is icing on the cake. They could reliably decimate almost any unit in the game on the charge. MCs, Walkers, Knights etc. Not counting Clementine and her bodyguards, the Infiltrators alone will be causing 8 wounds against 3+ saves and 4 wounds against 2+ saves. Any remaining 3+ saves will be picked off by C and her guards. Pretty solid for a 405pt unit. Throw in a powerfist/TH jp/thunderwolf/bike HQ if you want some ap2. Although most 2+ units wouldnt be a concern from the sheer amount of st7 hits.

Any CC squad in the elites section. She can choose to give them AND herself furious charge or Zealot. She's almost mandatory in Ironhands Star for the H&R(very durable star, very little damage output)

I always go to Iron Hands too. Two Smashmasters in a Command Squad is VERY durable, with the Chain one tanking all small arms fire and the Eternal one tanking bigger hits.

There was also mention of Wolves, and that could always amount to something. Celestine already has Hit And Run, so any White Scars characters aren't necessary. We can add Iron Hands characters instead with the very cheap tax of 2 Scout Squads to hold objectives. Then you still need Azrael for the 4++ for the Wolves.

I'll let someone else do that on a computer as I'm on my phone haha

Ideally she'll slot into any deathstar that either doesn't already have H&R naturally or was previously relying on another character or chapter tactic for it. The list of deathstars and variations you can make with the AoI factions is almost endless, but as Erjak put it so succinctly, pick pretty much anything with a CC focus in the elites section and you're done. The obvious go to in Thundercav or a Biker based command squad. Now that you're not constrained by H&R, a world of possibilties opens up, though you're still going to see the same old things because not only were they the best options before, they're also the stuff people already have. Personally I think putting her in with thundercav and a conclave or whatever the wolf version is will be the most commonly seen option.

If you want it the unit to look cool, Vanguard Vets with Jump packs and any number of melee weapons. If you want it to perform better but look weird (angel wing girl with dudes in power armor on motorcycles?) then go for a biker command squad with an apothecary, sprinkle with guns and weapons.

 ultimentra wrote:
If you want it the unit to look cool, Vanguard Vets with Jump packs and any number of melee weapons. If you want it to perform better but look weird (angel wing girl with dudes in power armor on motorcycles?) then go for a biker command squad with an apothecary, sprinkle with guns and weapons.

You could do a decent sanguinary guard or deathcompany star with her, the 6++ invul relic a sanguinary priest and a few libby's (or even a libcon)

So to get something started, as I don't really know my Space Wolves or Superfriends too well:
The formation to get them in with three maxed squads is 45 models
Then we get two Smashmasters with two squads of Scouts
Celestine will be the HQ of a Dark Angels detachment with two scout squads and then Azrael
Then lastly an allied detachment of a Sanguine Priest and a scout squad.

Am I missing anything else?

Personally, I was thinking of giving her an IH command squad with an apothecary, 4 power weapons, and a banner for +1A. Each dude gets 5 attacks on the charge + HoW. 425 pts. Adding any kind of CM for more tanking is probably expensive overkill.

Alternatively, I also liked running a Wolf Lord with (Black Death?) The axe that gives +3 attacks when outnumbered for a total of 10 S7 AP2 on the charge. Then add some TWC?

Mavnas wrote:
Personally, I was thinking of giving her an IH command squad with an apothecary, 4 power weapons, and a banner for +1A. Each dude gets 5 attacks on the charge + HoW. 425 pts. Adding any kind of CM for more tanking is probably expensive overkill.

Alternatively, I also liked running a Wolf Lord with (Black Death?) The axe that gives +3 attacks when outnumbered for a total of 10 S7 AP2 on the charge. Then add some TWC?

Problem with that command squad is you're still going to get bogged down in armor that you can't really hurt. Taking Power Mauls is probably your best bet, but you're still just hitting like a Space Marine - Your 425 point unit is going to kill 15 Orks boys on the charge, tops. (10 if they've got a Painboy.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Personally, I was thinking of giving her an IH command squad with an apothecary, 4 power weapons, and a banner for +1A. Each dude gets 5 attacks on the charge + HoW. 425 pts. Adding any kind of CM for more tanking is probably expensive overkill.

Alternatively, I also liked running a Wolf Lord with (Black Death?) The axe that gives +3 attacks when outnumbered for a total of 10 S7 AP2 on the charge. Then add some TWC?

Problem with that command squad is you're still going to get bogged down in armor that you can't really hurt. Taking Power Mauls is probably your best bet, but you're still just hitting like a Space Marine - Your 425 point unit is going to kill 15 Orks boys on the charge, tops. (10 if they've got a Painboy.)

I mean, the optimal situation for her squad is for them to be engaged in melee with a unit they've softened up. If you kill your target on the charge, you're vulnerable to the enemy flanking you and shooting you not in Celestine. Remember you get two assault phases for each shooting phase as long as your units are still in the assault at the end of your turn. Assuming hatred (from Castellans of the Empire, you're hitting with 75% of your SM attacks and 89% of Celestine's (I guess here WS5 guys are better, but wolves and such don't fit into the free Hatred detachment), so you're looking at 20-21 hits at S4 and 5 depending on the axe/sword mix with no save and another 8.5 S5 hits that allow saves (apothecary + HoW attacks) + some S3 HoW and Geminae hits. Your estimate is not super far off, depending on the axe/sword mix in there, but then you could just use bolters/flamer on the boyz first. If you manage to kill 20/30 in that first round you sweep them (which is actually not something you want). What you want is to kill all but 11 (that's the threshold for Mob Rule fearless, right?), then kill enough on your opponent's turn to sweep them or leave so few that you can just H&R to something else and let some other squad finish them with a few bolter shots.

If you're charging such a low value unit, you've either taken out of the enemy death star or are planning to use them as a spring board to get there (2d6" charge into the mob, 3d6" H&R, 12" move, 2d6" charge on the next turn puts you an average of 36" away from where your first move ended) unless the enemy really has a ton of small units blocking your path.

Don't get me wrong. It's underpowered compared to some of the broken combos, but the two CMs + Celestine option costs 600+ points before you've added serious teeth. The 425 point option lets you have shooty units to clear a path for you or additional melee squads for Celestine to join if her original squad gets wrecked by something (like being caught by a shooting attack from the side or rear). If you feel they're not good enough you can add a cheapish IC with a Thunderhammer so there's some S8-10 going. (Actually I'm still looking for a way to give her unit someone with Tank Hunter, because I really, really want that one time when I roll really well and drop a knight at I7.)

Edit: Actually the ideal situation is to end the enemy's assault phase in combat with one super weak dude that you can Hit and Run from (Except for that one out of 6 times where this will really suck) as a 3d6" H&R beats a d6" consolidate and a lone dude can be picked off by the stormbolter on a rhino or something.

I have a feeling celestine likes furries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You don't even need mage support - just get a cheap and deadly deathstar that's not going to die before it's time.

Mavnas, problem is, that unit isn't going to take out Deathstars either. Lets compare it to a regular ol' 234 point Wulfen squad with 3 Claws and 2 TH/SS.
You shoot, but only deal one wound - Two if the dice are very good. (Averaging a little over 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1.5 failed saves reduced to 1 by FNP. Celestine gets 3 more hits, 2 wounds, but less than 1 failed invuln reduced to a tiny fraction by FNP.)
You charge.
Now, you have a Dillema. You can accept a Challenge with Celestine, but that leaves your squad vulnerable. Or, you can accept a challenge with the Company Champion if you took one, but then Celestine has to hit a Storm Shield.

5 Hammer of Wrath hits might get another wound if you're lucky, so we'll say that you kill the Storm Shield that was wounded. If Celestine is in a challenge, you immediately lose two Command Squad dudes. In the Challenge, Celestine will kill the Wulfen guy, but his death throes will kill 1.25 Gemeni - Not great, not awful.
Now, the other Wulfen attack. Celestine is out of the challenge, so she tanks a lot of the damage - A gemeni dies, and Celestine takes a wound.
Your Command Squad makes their 10 Power Maul attacks, gets 5 hits, 4 wounds, and that inflicts 1 wound on the Storm Shield dude. Your Apothecary gets 4 attacks, but they bounce off harmlessly, causing around a quarter of a wound.
The Gemeni don't fare much better, causing one wound against a guy without a Storm Shield, because the Space Wolf player is savvy. Then, his remaining Hammer hits, and causes another wound on Celestine.
Next turn, Celestine finishes off the other shield, and takes another wound in return. The remaining claws kill Celestine. The bikes kill the claws, but the claws get revenge and kill the bikes back as they go down.

Celestine will get back up, of course, but that math assumes you're facing an unpotimized enemy that costs half as much as you, while you're in ideal conditions. Yeah, Wulfen are particularly strong and so the comparison is a little unfair, but it still demonstrates how the command squad ultimately fails as a Melee unit.

(Heck, if we give the Wulfen the charge, you barely scratch them - No wounds in Overwatch, Celestine only has a 50/50 shot of winning that challenge, and then you're dead.)

This only works if a libby can take SwiftStrike and Murder so please correct me if a libby is unable:

Celestine in BA CAD
BA Libby lvl2 with JP (with Blade of the Worthy if feeling adventurous)
5 DC marines with 1 fist
Raven Guard Conclave with 3 lvl 2 librarians with jps
1 with Swiftstrike and Murder.

All 3 librarians in the conclave roll on Biomancy, or change if Warp Speed, Iron Arm and Endurance are rolled early. There is a very high chance that both Warp Speed and Iron Arm will be rolled. Bonus if Endurance is also rolled (high enough likelyhood). BA libby rolls once on bio if endurance not rolled, or full on sanguinary otherwise always opting for primaris if only rolled on it once.

The Swiftstrike and Mudrer libby becomes the caster... now he can only cast 2 of the conclaves 6 powers a turn. Although he will be casting on a 2+. If he has endurance that will even more greatly increase Celestines durability with the 4+ fnp and her guards getting EW. If not - oh well. If he gets Warp Speed and Iron Arm (which is very likely) he will gain +3 attacks/initiative/strength/toughness and smash, combined with quickening and Celestine using her buff on the unit for FC (and blood rage from BA libby if lucky), he will charge with 7+d3 (+1 if blood rage), st 8, I7+d3, ap2 attacks, rerolling to wound, and gaining an extra attack for each hit. If you can get Zealot or another form of rerolling to hit in there it becomes even crazier. If enfeeble is cast too he will be IDing T5 too.
Celestine will stop him being locked in a challenge too and will provide very good tanking before assault (especially if endurance is rolled).
The DC allow for the FC bonus and grant extra bodies and attacks. Also allows the unit to safely split into 2 when hitting the opponents lines.
Lets not forget that Celestine, the libbys and the DC (with fist) but out a serious hurt in assault even without the above close combat monster.
795pt unit.

If you want to go even crazier, get a WS detachment added with a further lvl2 libby rolling on Biomancy with Glaive of Vengence. If he gets either (9/15 chance of getting one or both), he also becomes a combat monster, if it's Warp Speed you are talking 7 st8 (due to FC) ap2 I7 attacks on the charge, whilst Iron Arm gets him 4 st10 ap2 attacks on the charge. Another 135pts. Also more chances for Endurance (and Enfeeble if you like).

Of your 7 (or 9) rolls, there are only 2 powers you don't want. Even then, Leech Life can help Clementine and her body guards if needed.

Very durable, fast, and hits like a truck.

Pod in Cawl with the spare WS HQ slot and you have a solo model death star with insane durability that the opponent needs to deal with somewhere else.

Admittedly you have 1165pts in these two units (with additional WS libby and Cawl's pod) before any troops are bought... but you will have two crazy units that. just. won't. die.

If a Libby can't take Swiftstrike and Murder consider the aforementiond Glaive, Teeth of Terra, Burning Blade, Blade of Worthy etc for similar (if not as great) results.

Edit: roll once less on Biomancy (on BA or WS libby so Conclave can still use Warp Speed and Iron Arm) and roll once on Div for Prescience - Viola. Your Swiftstrike and Murder Libby is getting 16+ st8 ap2 hits at I8-10 rerolling to wound.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Mavnas, problem is, that unit isn't going to take out Deathstars either. Lets compare it to a regular ol' 234 point Wulfen squad with 3 Claws and 2 TH/SS.
You shoot, but only deal one wound - Two if the dice are very good. (Averaging a little over 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1.5 failed saves reduced to 1 by FNP. Celestine gets 3 more hits, 2 wounds, but less than 1 failed invuln reduced to a tiny fraction by FNP.)
You charge.
Now, you have a Dillema. You can accept a Challenge with Celestine, but that leaves your squad vulnerable. Or, you can accept a challenge with the Company Champion if you took one, but then Celestine has to hit a Storm Shield.

5 Hammer of Wrath hits might get another wound if you're lucky, so we'll say that you kill the Storm Shield that was wounded. If Celestine is in a challenge, you immediately lose two Command Squad dudes. In the Challenge, Celestine will kill the Wulfen guy, but his death throes will kill 1.25 Gemeni - Not great, not awful.
Now, the other Wulfen attack. Celestine is out of the challenge, so she tanks a lot of the damage - A gemeni dies, and Celestine takes a wound.
Your Command Squad makes their 10 Power Maul attacks, gets 5 hits, 4 wounds, and that inflicts 1 wound on the Storm Shield dude. Your Apothecary gets 4 attacks, but they bounce off harmlessly, causing around a quarter of a wound.
The Gemeni don't fare much better, causing one wound against a guy without a Storm Shield, because the Space Wolf player is savvy. Then, his remaining Hammer hits, and causes another wound on Celestine.
Next turn, Celestine finishes off the other shield, and takes another wound in return. The remaining claws kill Celestine. The bikes kill the claws, but the claws get revenge and kill the bikes back as they go down.

Celestine will get back up, of course, but that math assumes you're facing an unpotimized enemy that costs half as much as you, while you're in ideal conditions. Yeah, Wulfen are particularly strong and so the comparison is a little unfair, but it still demonstrates how the command squad ultimately fails as a Melee unit.

(Heck, if we give the Wulfen the charge, you barely scratch them - No wounds in Overwatch, Celestine only has a 50/50 shot of winning that challenge, and then you're dead.)

Those guys are on foot though, right? If you'd be willing to build a slow death star, you could spend 40 points on a priest with the relic that lets him auto-pass the war-hymns roll and then you're rerolling all your saves. (Heck you could take that guy and then make sure he's in the unit when you need him and ditch him once the hard fights are done or add him and a second priest, then you don't need to pick between rerolling your saves and rerolling all failed to wounds.) But wow, I was unaware those guys existed also the only pictures of their rules I could find online were in German, which is OK except I'm not sure what their gear does other than the TH/SS.

I would point out that if you get the attack Celestine doesn't have to hit a storm shield unless you put her next to one during your charge or take the challenge (which you might if you had to charge in from far and barely make it). Wounds go to the closest model, which isn't necessarily that one guy when Celestine is attacking since there's only one Celestine in that combat. Once your squad is swinging, then sure. Also, shooting the SS guys isn't ideal conditions. Ideal conditions is you having used Hit and Run previous turn and your 12" move to hit them from the side or behind and shoot the claw dudes. Realistically, you probably get one claw dude before you're either hitting the character who can LoS onto a SS guy or the SS guy. (OK, totally ideal would be them clumped up completely and Celestine's flamer going through the two non-shielded guys first, but probably the only way that happens is if you baited them into wrecking a rhino or something like that and they're clumped up from the melee combat with no consolidate.) The math shifts heavily in your favor if you can remove the claw guys before combat starts, which you can under totally ideal circumstances. OTOH, I'd probably just shoot melta guns at these people (which would probably lead to the wrecked rhino situation mentioned previously or more likely a murdered squad after someone shot up the rhino). The whole squad of them could survive on average 9 shots from a melta gun, which is... not that great (especially considering that they could lose 3 guys to 3 hits if hit from behind and the 4+ LOS is failed). Granted, now we're talking about what else is on the table, which isn't really the point here.

Still, I can see the lack of WS5 and I5 holding back the command squad and the lack of another character to eat challenges being a thing that should be remedied.

Correct me if i am wrong, but i thought the controlling player can decide which model is closest if they are equidistant (base to base) for the combat as a whole on a unit level?

peirceg wrote:
Correct me if i am wrong, but i thought the controlling player can decide which model is closest if they are equidistant (base to base) for the combat as a whole on a unit level?

I might be wrong, but I thought only the models swinging were counted? (Celestine is alone at her initiative.) I'd have to reread the book/FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So on page 52 of the rule book, the first sentence in bold is (actually, I don't think I can post direct quotes?).

But because Celestine is your only model attacking at her initiative step, you get to put wounds on the models closest to her. (I didn't realize this was by Initiative step rather than character, so a character attacking at the same initiative as some of your other troops has a lot less control over where his wounds go.) I guess this actually suggests you should try to get characters with different initiatives than eachother/their unit so that you can eliminate what you need to kill whenever you get the charge by placing the right character in the right place.

Of course if she's in the challenge, none of this matters.