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jSewell wrote:
Csm too expensive? 140 for 5 death guard csm + plasma in a rhino, 180 for 5 dg chosen with 4x melts in a rhino.... not too expensive as all

Compare that to 5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a duel Splinter Cannon Venom for 120, and all of our Poison doesnt care about your T5, nor does the S8 Blaster (with 18" range).

Or loads of 3 man Reaver units with a Cluster Caltrop and Heat Lance for 73pts each.

I made a list that had something like 32 units which was a gladius strike force. Anyone can beat that? I was thinking daemons but are they at 25 units+ ?

Dark Eldar:
Bound:
HQ:
1 Lhamean 10 pts

Troops:
5 kabalite warriors with blaster, dual SC venom 120 pts
5 kabalite warriors with blaster, dual SC venom 120 pts

Fast:
1 Khymera 10 pts
1 Khymera 10 pts
1 Khymera 10 pts
1 Khymera 10 pts
1 Khymera 10 pts
1 Khymera 10 pts

Total cost = 310 pts. for 9 units. Repeat as needed (6 at 1850, leaving out 1 Khymera to stay in points, total of 53 units).

For unbound, just take 185 single unit Khymera beastpacks.

Though, this is more hilarious than competitive.

 -v10mega wrote:
I made a list that had something like 32 units which was a gladius strike force. Anyone can beat that? I was thinking daemons but are they at 25 units+ ?

Genestealer Cult: 1850 points

Brood cycle

iconward
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs
5 genestealers

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs


subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs
5 metamorphs
5 metamorphs

44 units...

I run a somewhat MSU - centric Tyranids army. I have 4 flyrants and 2 Mawlocs, but I also have 8 single man lictor squads and 4 minimum sized ripper squads, plus 3 single mucolid squads.

Although many armies can do MSU in more extreme numbers, Tyranids have some very cost-effective units in terms of wounds and cover saves, especially with decent Malanthrope support.

shogun wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
I made a list that had something like 32 units which was a gladius strike force. Anyone can beat that? I was thinking daemons but are they at 25 units+ ?

Genestealer Cult: 1850 points

Brood cycle

iconward
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs
5 genestealers

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs


subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs

subterrean uprisings
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs
5 metamorphs
5 metamorphs

44 units...

But are they obsec?

Dang are you allow to bring a formation within a decurion more than twice in ITC?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Dang are you allow to bring a formation within a decurion more than twice in ITC?

Yes there is no limit if it within a decurion.

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:
Csm too expensive? 140 for 5 death guard csm + plasma in a rhino, 180 for 5 dg chosen with 4x melts in a rhino.... not too expensive as all

They are when it is 30 points cheaper for 5 space marines with the same set up. or twice as expensive as 3 eldar jet bikes with 2 weapon upgrades.

Largely irrelevant, as you're getting a more than 30 points of upgrades... t5, FNP, votw, relentless, etc.

Msu is just msu, not who can take the most cheap units. Otherwise, we'd just be saying who has the cheapest units.

Hey guys, just a question from an aspiring general. What are the advantages of MSU ? It's to prevent getting more guys shot up by a single unit ? That way if a 10 men unit shoots at your 5 men unit you don't risk losing 10 guys ?

Is there a big con to playing like that ? I guess not all armies can pull that off. Though if I did that with my Skitarii I'd always have an Alpha with two wounds leading the squad.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, just a question from an aspiring general. What are the advantages of MSU ? It's to prevent getting more guys shot up by a single unit ? That way if a 10 men unit shoots at your 5 men unit you don't risk losing 10 guys ?

Is there a big con to playing like that ? I guess not all armies can pull that off. Though if I did that with my Skitarii I'd always have an Alpha with two wounds leading the squad.

Mostly so that enemy armies have have some super awesome death star unit that will wreck everything it touches won't be able to kill its full potential each turn (and that you'll still have scoring units after the enemy removes a few). Downside is, you probably end up with no units that can tackle that enemy death star. Depending on the objectives, one of those may be more important than the others. (In a scenario with 6 objectives to control, MSU will come out ahead, but if you have a single thing like The Relic...)

 -v10mega wrote:

shogun wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
I made a list that had something like 32 units which was a gladius strike force. Anyone can beat that? I was thinking daemons but are they at 25 units+ ?

Genestealer Cult: 1850 points ...............

.............44 units...

But are they obsec?

Not that it really matters but it's not that difficult to add a CAD:

HQ: Magus or iconward
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes

jSewell wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:
Csm too expensive? 140 for 5 death guard csm + plasma in a rhino, 180 for 5 dg chosen with 4x melts in a rhino.... not too expensive as all

They are when it is 30 points cheaper for 5 space marines with the same set up. or twice as expensive as 3 eldar jet bikes with 2 weapon upgrades.

Largely irrelevant, as you're getting a more than 30 points of upgrades... t5, FNP, votw, relentless, etc.

Msu is just msu, not who can take the most cheap units. Otherwise, we'd just be saying who has the cheapest units.

It is relevant as DG aren´t the most points efficient for MSU. In a full 1850 list for the equivelant of your 6 units of your death guard points wise I have nearly a full battle coy which is 22 Obj sec units

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:
Csm too expensive? 140 for 5 death guard csm + plasma in a rhino, 180 for 5 dg chosen with 4x melts in a rhino.... not too expensive as all

They are when it is 30 points cheaper for 5 space marines with the same set up. or twice as expensive as 3 eldar jet bikes with 2 weapon upgrades.

Largely irrelevant, as you're getting a more than 30 points of upgrades... t5, FNP, votw, relentless, etc.

Msu is just msu, not who can take the most cheap units. Otherwise, we'd just be saying who has the cheapest units.

It is relevant as DG aren´t the most points efficient for MSU. In a full 1850 list for the equivelant of your 6 units of your death guard points wise I have nearly a full battle coy which is 22 Obj sec units

Csm can do msu but its really hard, i think we need something like a crap ton of oblits and csm squads from alpha legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

shogun wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
I made a list that had something like 32 units which was a gladius strike force. Anyone can beat that? I was thinking daemons but are they at 25 units+ ?

Genestealer Cult: 1850 points ...............

.............44 units...

But are they obsec?

Not that it really matters but it's not that difficult to add a CAD:

HQ: Magus or iconward
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes
TROOPS: 5 acolytes

Here is the problem, I read up on the Genestealer cults and I liked i a lot but the problem here is that i hate their models, so now its a modelling problem...

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:
Csm too expensive? 140 for 5 death guard csm + plasma in a rhino, 180 for 5 dg chosen with 4x melts in a rhino.... not too expensive as all

They are when it is 30 points cheaper for 5 space marines with the same set up. or twice as expensive as 3 eldar jet bikes with 2 weapon upgrades.

Largely irrelevant, as you're getting a more than 30 points of upgrades... t5, FNP, votw, relentless, etc.

Msu is just msu, not who can take the most cheap units. Otherwise, we'd just be saying who has the cheapest units.

It is relevant as DG aren´t the most points efficient for MSU. In a full 1850 list for the equivelant of your 6 units of your death guard points wise I have nearly a full battle coy which is 22 Obj sec units

You're so off on those numbers, lol. You're still equating efficiency to quantity alone. Refer to my previous comment. Orks would be top tier if spamming as many msu as you can was the point of msu.

Dark Eldar can run a 90 point fully legal CAD. There might be higher levels of MSU than spamming that, but not much higher.

3 reavers with a cluster caltrop is 63 points. Considering you can take 6 of those in a single detachment, for a measly 90 point tax (minimum) is pretty great.

now lets say that I wanna give those kabalite warrior troops a venom, and a blaster for versatility. Thats 120 points each. venom puts out 12 shots.

So for a hardcore DE MSU, you can take two Lhamians for 10 points each as HQ choices, maybe put them in venoms if you fancy that. Four units of KW in venoms with a blaster, and fill out the rest of the 12 FA choices (because you take double realspace) with 63 point reaver units.

Everything in the list has some bite. Reavers chew threw rhinos and the such, and any amount of massed poison fire will bring down even the biggest of baddies. A very potent list I think (although I haven't ran the numbers on the exact points cost)

jSewell wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

jSewell wrote:
Csm too expensive? 140 for 5 death guard csm + plasma in a rhino, 180 for 5 dg chosen with 4x melts in a rhino.... not too expensive as all

They are when it is 30 points cheaper for 5 space marines with the same set up. or twice as expensive as 3 eldar jet bikes with 2 weapon upgrades.

Largely irrelevant, as you're getting a more than 30 points of upgrades... t5, FNP, votw, relentless, etc.

Msu is just msu, not who can take the most cheap units. Otherwise, we'd just be saying who has the cheapest units.

It is relevant as DG aren´t the most points efficient for MSU. In a full 1850 list for the equivelant of your 6 units of your death guard points wise I have nearly a full battle coy which is 22 Obj sec units

You're so off on those numbers, lol. You're still equating efficiency to quantity alone. Refer to my previous comment. Orks would be top tier if spamming as many msu as you can was the point of msu.

I´m not off that much. 6 of your DG units will cost 840 points.

6 x tac squad = 420 transport free
2 x assault = 140 transport free
2 x dev = 140 transport free
captain 90
chaplain 90

880 points = 22 units

 -v10mega wrote:

Here is the problem, I read up on the Genestealer cults and I liked i a lot but the problem here is that i hate their models, so now its a modelling problem...

Problem? No it's a opportunity! You can create sum sick imperial assassins with swords, stabby camouflage orks or teleporting daemons. I already got a big GSC-army but I like the idea of having an imperial assassin army with a big bunch of eversor-assassins conversions.

shogun wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

Here is the problem, I read up on the Genestealer cults and I liked i a lot but the problem here is that i hate their models, so now its a modelling problem...

Problem? No it's a opportunity! You can create sum sick imperial assassins with swords, stabby camouflage orks or teleporting daemons. I already got a big GSC-army but I like the idea of having an imperial assassin army with a big bunch of eversor-assassins conversions.

Ninjas with GSC rules!!!
Only question is "What ninja?"

Teleporting daemons...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for D-Eldar i already have them alongside chaos and imperial marines so.... im gucci

 andysonic1 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Dang are you allow to bring a formation within a decurion more than twice in ITC?

Yes there is no limit if it within a decurion.

That is incorrect. One and only one duplicate detachment allowed regardless of where it is slotted.

An army may duplicate a single Detachment, one time.

Example: A list may include 2 CADs, but not 3 CADs. Or, a single CAD, and 2 Allied Detachments. Or, 3 Formations, 2 of which are the same Formation, etc.

Note: This includes “Decurion Style” Detachments which are comprised of multiple datasheets and Formations. They may only take a single duplicate Formation, one time within the “Decurion Style” Detachment, although they make take duplicate Data Slate units within the Detachment if permitted to do so.
Example: Necrons may take the Decurion with 2 Canoptek Harvest formations within it, but no other duplicate formations.

Mavnas wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, just a question from an aspiring general. What are the advantages of MSU ? It's to prevent getting more guys shot up by a single unit ? That way if a 10 men unit shoots at your 5 men unit you don't risk losing 10 guys ?

Is there a big con to playing like that ? I guess not all armies can pull that off. Though if I did that with my Skitarii I'd always have an Alpha with two wounds leading the squad.

Mostly so that enemy armies have have some super awesome death star unit that will wreck everything it touches won't be able to kill its full potential each turn (and that you'll still have scoring units after the enemy removes a few). Downside is, you probably end up with no units that can tackle that enemy death star. Depending on the objectives, one of those may be more important than the others. (In a scenario with 6 objectives to control, MSU will come out ahead, but if you have a single thing like The Relic...)

Also, MSU tends to do poorly in kill point missions.

@ "Also, MSU tends to do poorly in kill point missions."

This is why I'm all for the rumors of ITC adopting Nova-style missions. If this is the case, I hope Nova adopts ITC's FAQ and Rulings.

It might actually lead to a balance in mission packets and rulings and a country-wide tournament format.

Here's to hoping!

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, just a question from an aspiring general. What are the advantages of MSU ? It's to prevent getting more guys shot up by a single unit ? That way if a 10 men unit shoots at your 5 men unit you don't risk losing 10 guys ?

Is there a big con to playing like that ? I guess not all armies can pull that off. Though if I did that with my Skitarii I'd always have an Alpha with two wounds leading the squad.

i run my Skitarri predominantly MSU, I do have one 10 man squad of vanguard, just because i've got plasma calivers in there and want to protect those expensive weapons. The other squads are arc rifles and min 5 man.

Now i'm not saying this is the best way, i'm not that experienced. But the reason I do it is because then it's harder for an enemy to completely neutralize my units. There's redundancy, so they can't simply erase all my rangers with one shot. Our units are so fragile it's pretty easy to lose a squad, so i want the opponent to have to waste a massive awesome unit to wipe out a 5 man squad, and then still have my other MSU squads left to do the work.

The other reason is that our elites are so expensive i can't really fit the points to run them anything other than MSU.

I just like MSU because I hate deathstars and I think they ruin the game (not hating the players that use them tho) for me and I find them boring to play. I like MSU because I love the idea of horde of small units everywhere. Make sure you guys consider ITC rules as I am going to be using them. So far Genestealer cults has me but the models I really do not like the models.

Danny slag wrote:
i run my Skitarri predominantly MSU, I do have one 10 man squad of vanguard, just because i've got plasma calivers in there and want to protect those expensive weapons. The other squads are arc rifles and min 5 man.

Now i'm not saying this is the best way, i'm not that experienced. But the reason I do it is because then it's harder for an enemy to completely neutralize my units. There's redundancy, so they can't simply erase all my rangers with one shot. Our units are so fragile it's pretty easy to lose a squad, so i want the opponent to have to waste a massive awesome unit to wipe out a 5 man squad, and then still have my other MSU squads left to do the work.

The other reason is that our elites are so expensive i can't really fit the points to run them anything other than MSU.

In my 1000 pts list I have a mix of these. I use one full squad for the Vanguards with Lord and one Caliver, and two 5 man squads for the Rangers, one of which have two Arquebii. I think it may be the best way to field Rangers, as their firepower is more valuable in my eyes, and more about picking the right target. Especially if you include one or two Arquebii.

I own currently 10 Vanguards and 10 Rangers, and I don't think I'll ever go beyond 30 total, as I'm already using Cult units. MSU fits them well enough (plus, 2 wounds sergeants, yeah !).

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

shogun wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

Here is the problem, I read up on the Genestealer cults and I liked i a lot but the problem here is that i hate their models, so now its a modelling problem...

Problem? No it's a opportunity! You can create sum sick imperial assassins with swords, stabby camouflage orks or teleporting daemons. I already got a big GSC-army but I like the idea of having an imperial assassin army with a big bunch of eversor-assassins conversions.

Ninjas with GSC rules!!!
Only question is "What ninja?"

Well, I can say that I fixed the problems with my Kroot with a similar solution: I use ork shootas. The reasons are many; the models are more durable & they fit the head-canon for my army better. As asteroid miners, kroot are ill suited for battle in vacuum. With orks though, they just wonder why their gunz don't make any noise.

And MSU tau is wonderful for making bad solutions all day for our opponents. A 53 pt model if not dealt with can rain death on infantry, but dealing with it can waste the firepower of multiples of its point value per turn.

Once played a tournament with this tyranid list (1850 points, battle forged and no restrictions) :

Tyranid CAD
flying hive tyrant
flying hive tyrant
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x venomthrope

Hive fleet detachment:
1x flying hive tyrant
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb

deathleaper/lictor formation
Deathleaper
1x Lictor
1x Lictor
1x Lictor
1x Lictor
1x Lictor

Spore field formation
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster

Spore field formation
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster

Spore field formation
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster

Spore field formation
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster

Spore field formation
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
1x mucolid spore bomb
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster
3x spore mine cluster

So thats 61 units...
For those who don't know the spore field formation: every unit/bomb comes back on a 4+ from ongoing reserve.

It's a pretty good list because spore bombs don't give away kill/victory points.



This was a game against another Tyranid army:

@shogun, omg. I'm so glad you actually had the models and pictures to show us. I'm a believer now! Haha. I would LOVE to play against this army with my MSU ork list. XDDDDDD