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Your chapter-master is helping to clear a Space Hulk, only to bump into a startled Hrud who turns him into a puddle of Astartes soup. A new leader is required. Question is, who gets to pick? The Chaplains? The Captains? Is there a dance off?

I'm sure its different for many chapters but whats the norm?

I think I read somewhere that the Captain of the First Company becomes the Chapter Master and all the other Captains are bumped up a level but I could be wrong.

I haven't read anything that specifically pertains to this matter, but the advancement of the 1st Company Captain to the position of Chapter Master seems most logical.

I think captain first company normaly, but heir apparent of Ultras is the second, and space wolves have no second elite company.

They have great wolf. And pick from most celebrated wolf lords.

However the Chaplains have a say probbly in regard to chapter purity and such.
They might veto if see a unsuitable candidate.

Well, I haven't read all of Mont'ka or Kauyon or whatever, but Shrike went from a 3rd company captain to the chapter master, so unless something super out of the ordinary happened, it might not be as simple as 1st company becomes chapter master.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Well, I haven't read all of Mont'ka or Kauyon or whatever, but Shrike went from a 3rd company captain to the chapter master, so unless something super out of the ordinary happened, it might not be as simple as 1st company becomes chapter master.

True.. Grey knights elect a grand master I believe
Surviving company masters.

Dark angels are chosen by the inner circle. But given deathwing etc. Ita likely they draw its captain...

I feel the chaplins have a strong say in the selection. And any heir is outlined in advance and not a rushed event. The new leader has been shortlisted before a chapter masters fall. Barring changes or death they take role.

It depends on the traditions of the chapter.
For most chapters, I guess it comes down to having the chapter's military and spiritual leaders (chapter master, captains, chaplains, venerable dreadnoughts etc.) choose a new chapter master from amongst the captains.
But in many chapters it could also be that a chapter master alone decides on who will succeed him in case he falls in battle.
In any case, I agree with jhe90 in that it will probably have been decided long before the chapter master actually dies. Can't afford having succession crises in the middle of a campaign.

The Codex advises making First Company Captain the new Chapter Master. Some Chapter Masters will elect a Battle-Brother from anywhere to succeed them (If not a Company Captain then generally a member of his Command Squad).

Another interesting thing is that sometimes the new Chapter Master elect doesn't want to be Chapter Master. Lysander was elected by the late Vladimir Pugh to be Chapter Master of the Imperial fists but refused the offer so another Captain took the title.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I think I read somewhere that the Captain of the First Company becomes the Chapter Master and all the other Captains are bumped up a level but I could be wrong.

Depends on the chapter.

Sometimes they are elected through the company. Such as the Soul Drinkers, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Salamanders, and the Iron Hands all elect the chapter master. The chapter master is not always the leader per say of the chapter all the time. Sometimes they are the public face of the chapter as with the case of the Raven Guard, and Imperial Fists.

I also remember something about it usually being the Captain of the First. But I don't think this is a hard and fast rule, but more a logical choice. The 1st Company Captain is likely to be the most experienced Captain in the Chapter so it would make sense for it to be him.

But I could see there being a series of ritual tests between all the Captains, whether it be ritual combat, games of strategy, dance off etc.

Also, depending on the chapter, the position could be more of a political office with having to deal with the various departments of the IoM, and as such, the best commander may not be the best choice for the role - You may be a great commander, but shooting high ranking officials may not be the best political move (unless you borrow a black coat and a peak cap).

I always viewed each company as travelling on assigned patrol routes and responding to any calls for aid when they came in. As such, it would be the company captain who has command over the operation, with the Chapter Master having very little involvement beyond assigning the patrol routes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember that in the short term, it wouldn't matter if a chapter master fell and the position was vacant for a time. Space Marines tend to have clear chains of command (whether formal in the case of Ultra Marines, or informal in the case of Space Wolves - he's the oldest Wolf Guard etc.) so their Combat Effectiveness would not be diminished.

I always thought the chapter champion was somehow Involved in this. Either as a learning position close to the chapter master or as an advisor to the next one togheter with the rest of the honour guard. In a similar manner I thought company champions where next in line for Captain positions.

It makes sense for the first Captain to step up though, or for a council to decide.

It will depend on the Chapter and their specific traditions.

The Blood Angels, for example, don't immediately decide on it. Their High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest take joint command if the CM falls so there's time to test the candidate(s) for stability. The BA Codex says this is tradition after an incident in M35 when the newly installed CM fell to the Black Rage immediately, leaving the chain of command in a shambles.

icn1982 wrote:
I also remember something about it usually being the Captain of the First. But I don't think this is a hard and fast rule, but more a logical choice. The 1st Company Captain is likely to be the most experienced Captain in the Chapter so it would make sense for it to be him.

But I could see there being a series of ritual tests between all the Captains, whether it be ritual combat, games of strategy, dance off etc.

Also, depending on the chapter, the position could be more of a political office with having to deal with the various departments of the IoM, and as such, the best commander may not be the best choice for the role - You may be a great commander, but shooting high ranking officials may not be the best political move (unless you borrow a black coat and a peak cap).

I always viewed each company as travelling on assigned patrol routes and responding to any calls for aid when they came in. As such, it would be the company captain who has command over the operation, with the Chapter Master having very little involvement beyond assigning the patrol routes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember that in the short term, it wouldn't matter if a chapter master fell and the position was vacant for a time. Space Marines tend to have clear chains of command (whether formal in the case of Ultra Marines, or informal in the case of Space Wolves - he's the oldest Wolf Guard etc.) so their Combat Effectiveness would not be diminished.

Aye. In times of crisis or I decisions needed making they could call a chapter council of the captains at the fortress or crusade, and veteran chaplains etc. Honour guard pr other senior veterans to act as command until one os chosen

Also yes. Marine chain of command is very clear, losses do not effect the mission capabilities as everyone knows the job too well, and each others.
Xenos still get purged. Even if acting captain is a veteran Sgt and such.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I think I read somewhere that the Captain of the First Company becomes the Chapter Master and all the other Captains are bumped up a level but I could be wrong.

Depends on the chapter.

Sometimes they are elected through the company. Such as the Soul Drinkers, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Salamanders, and the Iron Hands all elect the chapter master. The chapter master is not always the leader per say of the chapter all the time. Sometimes they are the public face of the chapter as with the case of the Raven Guard, and Imperial Fists.

Where is the source for BA electing a chapter master?

The more comments I read in this thread the more I'm wishing it truly does come down to a dance off.

Though I tend to agree with the general consensus that it's probably captain of first company or an elect.

Ekene Dubaku assumed the the position of chapter master of the Celestial Lions by way of some kind of ceremony where he recited an 'oath of lordship' over the chapter.

He didn't want the position either, as he was just a squad sergeant; but Helbrecht forced him to do it, presumably at Grimaldus' suggestion. He was the logical choice at the time, being among the highest ranked survivors of that chapter and the one that ultimately avenged them against the Orks, but if he had had the choice he probably would have had the survivors join the Black Templars' crusade and die out at last. Fortunately for the Lions, Grimaldus got it in his head that a thousand Celestial Lions dropping in unexpectedly in the Imperium's darkest hour would be pretty cool, so lent them some apothecaries and veterans to rebuild and train the next generation.

The different Chapters have their on process of Selecting a new Chapter Master. I believe for the Iron hands the council of Ancients nominate and vote. Salamanders have a weapon making contest, with the winner being chosen on who kills the largest drake with their weapon. Ultarmarines, the previous chapter master pick's from their captains on who will take their place. I believe if no one is picked it goes to the first company captain or at lease they are acting chapter master until one is picked. The rest of the chapters, I don't know off the top of my head.

I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves vote on it.

One of the captains is the heir apparent. Between 4 and 6 of the companies back him while the others run off to the eye of terror.

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves vote on it.

In one book I believe a wolf preist sees the potential. But also too hot headed in Ragnar however chalk him in as potential to become a great wolf.

They process of selection to them. From this apeers they are watching for candidates and any candidate they see fit. Is kept a eye on for flaw or for signs of a good leader.

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves vote on it.

In one book I believe a wolf preist sees the potential. But also too hot headed in Ragnar however chalk him in as potential to become a great wolf.

They process of selection to them. From this apeers they are watching for candidates and any candidate they see fit. Is kept a eye on for flaw or for signs of a good leader.

We've only really got blurbs about most of the Wolf Lords but of the few who've really been looked at -
Ragnar is a hothead
Bran Redmaw is a Feral
Sven Bloodhowl is MIA after a suicide mission
Krom is a Tyrant
Harold Deathwolf might be best contender?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves vote on it.

In one book I believe a wolf preist sees the potential. But also too hot headed in Ragnar however chalk him in as potential to become a great wolf.

They process of selection to them. From this apeers they are watching for candidates and any candidate they see fit. Is kept a eye on for flaw or for signs of a good leader.

We've only really got blurbs about most of the Wolf Lords but of the few who've really been looked at -
Ragnar is a hothead
Bran Redmaw is a Feral
Sven Bloodhowl is MIA after a suicide mission
Krom is a Tyrant
Harold Deathwolf might be best contender?

This is the Space Wolves that we're talking about, so Ragnar being a hothead isn't much against him. Which of them has gotten the most screen time over the past few publications?

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves vote on it.

In one book I believe a wolf preist sees the potential. But also too hot headed in Ragnar however chalk him in as potential to become a great wolf.

They process of selection to them. From this apeers they are watching for candidates and any candidate they see fit. Is kept a eye on for flaw or for signs of a good leader.

We've only really got blurbs about most of the Wolf Lords but of the few who've really been looked at -
Ragnar is a hothead
Bran Redmaw is a Feral
Sven Bloodhowl is MIA after a suicide mission
Krom is a Tyrant
Harold Deathwolf might be best contender?

This is the Space Wolves that we're talking about, so Ragnar being a hothead isn't much against him. Which of them has gotten the most screen time over the past few publications?

The issue is more its hot headed to the point of making stupid mistakes.

The stonecutters, it says so in their song;

"Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do, we do!
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do, we do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who elects future chapter masters?
We do, we do!
Who robs cavefish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!!!"

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves vote on it.

In one book I believe a wolf preist sees the potential. But also too hot headed in Ragnar however chalk him in as potential to become a great wolf.

They process of selection to them. From this apeers they are watching for candidates and any candidate they see fit. Is kept a eye on for flaw or for signs of a good leader.

We've only really got blurbs about most of the Wolf Lords but of the few who've really been looked at -
Ragnar is a hothead
Bran Redmaw is a Feral
Sven Bloodhowl is MIA after a suicide mission
Krom is a Tyrant
Harold Deathwolf might be best contender?

This is the Space Wolves that we're talking about, so Ragnar being a hothead isn't much against him. Which of them has gotten the most screen time over the past few publications?

Hothead being an understatement that translates to 'damn near clinically insane'.

With the Blood Angels I think that the former Chapter Master may choose who takes his place. I'm only saying this because the coex says that Dante was "grooming" Tycho to be Chapter Master one day, when Tycho was Captain of the 3rd

Cassor the Damned wrote:
With the Blood Angels I think that the former Chapter Master may choose who takes his place. I'm only saying this because the coex says that Dante was "grooming" Tycho to be Chapter Master one day, when Tycho was Captain of the 3rd

That could just be Dante training him to be the best candidate to be chosen rather than the official replacement. People have been grooming Ragnar since he was a Wolf Guard but he's not guaranteed to be the next Chapter Master.

pm713 wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
With the Blood Angels I think that the former Chapter Master may choose who takes his place. I'm only saying this because the coex says that Dante was "grooming" Tycho to be Chapter Master one day, when Tycho was Captain of the 3rd

That could just be Dante training him to be the best candidate to be chosen rather than the official replacement. People have been grooming Ragnar since he was a Wolf Guard but he's not guaranteed to be the next Chapter Master.

True, but it's one of those unoffical things in my book. There is no rule that says the Chapter Master gets to choose, but if he dies and says "I think it should be this guy" you don't go against that

Cassor the Damned wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
With the Blood Angels I think that the former Chapter Master may choose who takes his place. I'm only saying this because the coex says that Dante was "grooming" Tycho to be Chapter Master one day, when Tycho was Captain of the 3rd

That could just be Dante training him to be the best candidate to be chosen rather than the official replacement. People have been grooming Ragnar since he was a Wolf Guard but he's not guaranteed to be the next Chapter Master.

True, but it's one of those unoffical things in my book. There is no rule that says the Chapter Master gets to choose, but if he dies and says "I think it should be this guy" you don't go against that

Well you might if he's completely unsuitable or if someone else is much better. Chapter Masters aren't perfect.

 jhe90 wrote:

True.. Grey knights elect a grand master I believe

Draigo: "We'll make Grey Knights great again! I know a lot of daemons and they're nice people but we'll build a wall and make daemons pay for it!".