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 Blackie wrote:
Well very few people play competitive orks lists so they're wrong considered by many players. About necrons and tomb blades, no one is going to field more than 6 jetbikes in every competitive necrons list, whiel you have see 20+ bikes, eventually some with FNP, in many competitive orks lists, all with obj sec.

I am very confused as to why you are arguing that orks are competitive because they have the option of obsec bikespam, and how amazing their bikes are because zhardsnark is so good, but at the same time you are comparing them to other armies not allowing for Forgeworld options.

The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Well very few people play competitive orks lists so they're wrong considered by many players. About necrons and tomb blades, no one is going to field more than 6 jetbikes in every competitive necrons list, whiel you have see 20+ bikes, eventually some with FNP, in many competitive orks lists, all with obj sec.

I am very confused as to why you are arguing that orks are competitive because they have the option of obsec bikespam, and how amazing their bikes are because zhardsnark is so good, but at the same time you are comparing them to other armies not allowing for Forgeworld options.

The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.

Yes i say it in general, in my area forgeworld is typically not allowed, but if in italy i can't take zhadsnark that doesn't mean that in north america or other parts of the world biker troops are illegal. I'm not saying orks are competitive either, just that biker troops are among the most competitive units that orks can field. If forgeworld is allowed.

 Blackie wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.

Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.

You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.

Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.

You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.

You've said that you saw ONCE a list full of tomb blades, not even in person... so basically you agree with me, you won't see many of them, we're talking about TAC lists not tailored lists. Also i didn't say that ork bikes are better but that tomb blades are not that scary as in a competitive orks list you see a lot of bikes while in a competitive necrons one you won't. They serve different roles, orks ones are troops. And those jetbikes are the priority target for many orks lists that want to achieve first blood as they're probably the less resilient unit on the board. If i play with necrons there would be many things that concern me, tomb blades are not among them.

 Blackie wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.

Only that I've seen competitive lists with a dozen if not more tomb-blades.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.

Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.

You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.

You've said that you saw ONCE a list full of tomb blades, not even in person... so basically you agree with me, you won't see many of them, we're talking about TAC lists not tailored lists. Also i didn't say that ork bikes are better but that tomb blades are not that scary as in a competitive orks list you see a lot of bikes while in a competitive necrons one you won't. They serve different roles, orks ones are troops. And those jetbikes are the priority target for many orks lists that want to achieve first blood as they're probably the less resilient unit on the board. If i play with necrons there would be many things that concern me, tomb blades are not among them.

Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?

I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...

the_scotsman wrote:

The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.

Its also good to note that he isn't only FW but that his rules are also oop.

 oldzoggy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.

Its also good to note that he isn't only FW but that his rules are also oop.

It's sad that your (arguably) best HQ comes from an OOP and outdated source. It's downright depressing.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.

Its also good to note that he isn't only FW but that his rules are also oop.

It's sad that your (arguably) best HQ comes from an OOP and outdated source. It's downright depressing.

Yes it is, i agree, but actually legal in noth america and uk tournaments.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?

I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...

Wait your accusing them of not playing 40k games when in the same post you say you don't have enough models to go to tournaments?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.

Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.

Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.

You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.

You've said that you saw ONCE a list full of tomb blades, not even in person... so basically you agree with me, you won't see many of them, we're talking about TAC lists not tailored lists. Also i didn't say that ork bikes are better but that tomb blades are not that scary as in a competitive orks list you see a lot of bikes while in a competitive necrons one you won't. They serve different roles, orks ones are troops. And those jetbikes are the priority target for many orks lists that want to achieve first blood as they're probably the less resilient unit on the board. If i play with necrons there would be many things that concern me, tomb blades are not among them.

Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?

I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...

The point that you are confident to tie them means that you never played against competitive orks lists based on bikers troops. We're talking about MSU of bikes, with 3 of them with a single bigger unit. Or, better, 4-5 units with 5-6 bikes each. A nob with pk in each one of them. I'd probably cripple the ONLY jetbike unit turn 1, then charge it and wipe out easily. There's also the bullyboyz on the field, 15 meganobz typically, i can finish the jetbikes with them. And with bikers that warboss with 4-5 s10 ap2 I4 attacks. 20+ bikes are enough to ruin a single tomb blades unit, that's an average of more than 30 hits with s5. If you take a lot of jetbikes that would be an hard counter for bikers list, that's for sure. But i'm also sure that many necrons players won't field that many jetbikes. I never suffered a lot due to tomb blades, and i don't play MSU but a single unit with 10 bikes and 2 HQ, when i take bikers. It's the canoptek harvest the real issue, unkillable in the shooting phase and capable of tying anything if not killing anything.

 slip wrote:
Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.

E: I did calculate the point values for the tomb blades wrong on double checking.

Also, Ork Bikers are 4+ Jink Standard. 3+ if they forego shooting and turbo-boost OR if the unit is Zhadsnarks. He gives his UNIT Skilled rider, not his army.

Tomb Blades are better in every way imaginable to Ork Warbikers.
Orks have better Attacks and a better gun Versus Hordes.
Tomb Blades have better BS, S, LD, Save, Reanimation protocol, A significantly better gun versus almost any target bar cheap horde armies. And the gun is longer ranged, Better AP and can be upgraded to be good against hordes either in the form of Tesla (iffy) or Particle Beamer (small blast).

All of that for 22pts.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?

I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...

Wait your accusing them of not playing 40k games when in the same post you say you don't have enough models to go to tournaments?

About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.

What a shame. Did you have a lot?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.

What a shame. Did you have a lot?

I had about 5000 points of Necrons vanish, and about 3500 give or take of Space Marines go, not including random characters I just made for them.

It was pretty gut wrenching not gonna lie.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.

What a shame. Did you have a lot?

I had about 5000 points of Necrons vanish, and about 3500 give or take of Space Marines go, not including random characters I just made for them.

It was pretty gut wrenching not gonna lie.

I can imagine: I would be pretty devistated at something like that.

You had much luck rebuilding your collection?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.

What a shame. Did you have a lot?

I had about 5000 points of Necrons vanish, and about 3500 give or take of Space Marines go, not including random characters I just made for them.

It was pretty gut wrenching not gonna lie.

I can imagine: I would be pretty devistated at something like that.

You had much luck rebuilding your collection?

I've got maybe 2000 of Necrons (nothing even painted but I'll be letting someone else do that because they want to) and then just Space Marines lying around. Any games with the latter I just borrow anything simply to contribute to the CSM tactics threads haha

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.

What a shame. Did you have a lot?

I had about 5000 points of Necrons vanish, and about 3500 give or take of Space Marines go, not including random characters I just made for them.

It was pretty gut wrenching not gonna lie.

Losing your house, things that were beloved to you. Plus a massive investment. What would this be, 1-2k dollars? Man I feel you.


But we are getting things derailed. I think we were in the middle fo a session of thinly vailed namecalling and ranting about strategy centered on bikes.

I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.

 cranect wrote:
I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.

Nauts are not among our best units, that's without any doubt. But a list with 5 of them and a stompa is very extreme and maybe they can actually work like that, i trust you if you say so. If you take just a single naut or two or them, they typically don't repay you in the game.

 Blackie wrote:

 cranect wrote:
I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.

Nauts are not among our best units, that's without any doubt. But a list with 5 of them and a stompa is very extreme and maybe they can actually work like that, i trust you if you say so. If you take just a single naut or two or them, they typically don't repay you in the game.

The Gorkanaut crushing crew formation makes Gorkanauts into relatively scary late-game threats at least. The strength of the 'nauts is being immune to S6 from the front, and being immune to most non-dedicated melee units. Buzzgob's stompa helps too.

 cranect wrote:
I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.

I really like to run this list ( with the exception of the kustom stompa instead of the discount stompa), and tried some AV 13 walker lists in the past but I can't seem to get it working. How do you mitigate the slow movement capabilities of the non super heavy walkers ?

Yes you're s6 immune but very slow and extremely vulnerable to melta deep strike. I've never seen a list with that many av13 HP to be honest, and i understand if it performs, very few armies can deal with them. But there are some hard counters, fast armies and melta drop pods would cause a lot of trouble, also in close combat the naugts suffer a lot units that strike very hard. Those nauts are considered crap beacuse usually you see one or two of them and they don't perform, due to poor shooting (lootas,bike, bustas cause more damage for the same points) and they're easy to deal with. But having 5 and a stompa is different, i'd really like to see a game with this list.

Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.

blaktoof wrote:
Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.

Slow play so that your opponant doesn't get his turn 3 onwards; one of the biggest Ork tactics in my area and it annoys the hell out of me.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 cranect wrote:
I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.

I really like to run this list ( with the exception of the kustom stompa instead of the discount stompa), and tried some AV 13 walker lists in the past but I can't seem to get it working. How do you mitigate the slow movement capabilities of the non super heavy walkers ?

I had a "wish I were rich" 2x Gorkanaught Krushing Krew list that I may still purchase one day. Mostly involved two Crushin Crew, and a CAD with max meks for repair rolls everywhere and a couple grot squads.

I have one Gorkanaught, he never fails me, takes around one melta shot and gets at least immobilized. When he rolls the save though sometimes he gets to stomp on some infantry gitz standing close enough to fire at him.

EDIT; Overall, Orkz still have good lowest common denominators in the form of unit spam, model spam, and meganobz spam. Orkz are a dice check army, from what I've experienced. If I bring MSU and they have enough MSU or split fire gimmicks, bad day. If I bring model spam and they have the flamers, high volume assault, Large Blasts, bad day. If I bring the Meganobz, and they have all the AP1/2 and Grav, bad day.

I have yet to own a biker mob.

Slow play so that your opponant doesn't get his turn 3 onwards; one of the biggest Ork tactics in my area and it annoys the hell out of me.

I've been slow played by Necrons. At that tournament it was the only game that failed to reach turn 4.

blaktoof wrote:
Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.

We can still pull off some quick lists that perform ok. FW stompas with bikers, bully boyz. Even trukkboyz can be played relatively quickly but they're not a very strong list foundation nowadays. Ok for tourneys with a stronger emphasis on scoring.

 koooaei wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.

We can still pull off some quick lists that perform ok. FW stompas with bikers, bully boyz. Even trukkboyz can be played relatively quickly but they're not a very strong list foundation nowadays. Ok for tourneys with a stronger emphasis on scoring.

I agree there are some okay tournament lists, but tournaments are a poor reflection of 40k as some armies have many builds which rely on weathering casualties the first few turns to swamp the enemy turns 4-6. Which is how the rules of 40k intended it to be played. Removing those turns from the game changes the viability of certain armies greatly, one of those is Orks.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 cranect wrote:
I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.

I really like to run this list ( with the exception of the kustom stompa instead of the discount stompa), and tried some AV 13 walker lists in the past but I can't seem to get it working. How do you mitigate the slow movement capabilities of the non super heavy walkers ?

Well since you and your opponent alternate objective deployment I normally try to deploy my three near my frontline and the center of the table. Then due to sheer size it makes a wall all the way across the board. Deep striking melta can hurt a lot and grav is irritating as well. Normally I will use 3-4 through the game and 2 will normally die before doing much of anything against other very competitive lists. In combat against massed S10 you will end up hurting but against S8 it isn't normally as bad. The worst list I have fought yet had 4 knights and I ended up killing only 2.5 because the stompa loves to whiff but that happens. For fast armies that try to play keep away the strategy ends up being walk onto the objectives and take it on the chin. So far people love to overload one side of them with the grav and such and they kill the naughts on that side so I send the stompa that way to take care of them. The stompa is deployed in the middle with a gorkanaut to one side and a morkanaut to the other. The morkanaut side then gets a gorkanaut and the other side gets a morkanaut and then another gorkanaut. This covers everyone with the KFFs. I roll on the strategic table to try for the conqueror of cities. They are not the best units in the dex but they are my favorite units so I made them work.


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Also I normally finish the games in 40-90 minutes since it plays quickly.