My opinion: Orks are not that bad

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**Alpharius**

The OT Forum is the 'proper' place for all things Political - more or less.

Meanwhile, in here, RULE #2 please.

**Blackie**

SemperMortis wrote:

The Kill Kannon fires and is useless but lets say it does something ok? 1/3rd chance to hit, and if it misses it only has BS2 so anything higher then a 6 to scatter usually means a miss. 2 rokkitz = 2/3rd chance to get a single hit....

Actually if the killkannon fires those rokkis can only snap fire so each one of them has 1/6 to hit....

**koooaei**

Vankraken wrote:
I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNG AP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).

Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.

What are you playing against? I really don't want to diminish gitz but our meta is pretty competitive and they tend to do jack squat with their 'fancy' shooting vs the common competitive foe. Also, there's a huge problem with ld7 when you run them in a transport cause they're often forced to take it due to vehicle damage.

They might be useful from time to time - sure. But i've found that lobbas and lootas are just cheaper, easier to use, more numerous and more effective overall.

**Vankraken**

koooaei wrote:
Vankraken wrote:
I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNG AP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).

Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.

What are you playing against? I really don't want to diminish gitz but our meta is pretty competitive and they tend to do jack squat with their 'fancy' shooting vs the common competitive foe. Also, there's a huge problem with ld7 when you run them in a transport cause they're often forced to take it due to vehicle damage.

They might be useful from time to time - sure. But i've found that lobbas and lootas are just cheaper, easier to use, more numerous and more effective overall.

Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines (Wolves and Vanilla) with my Orks. Like i said I use a lot of Bltiz Brigade strategies which dramatically reduces my turn 1 casualties unless turn 1 is just a dumpster fire of bad luck. I wish my meta was more chill but I make myself use the Gitz because i love the models/fluff behind them so I make them work the best that i can and they actually pay dividends by the end game. Rarely the stars but they usually pull their weight because they survive inside their Battlewagon.

**koooaei**

Well, on the other hand i had good luck with possessed a couple times i used them.

How do you deal with flash gitz and snap-shooting after damage to their transports? It's pretty easy to damage a battlewagon.

**SemperMortis**

koooaei wrote:
Well, on the other hand i had good luck with possessed a couple times i used them.

How do you deal with flash gitz and snap-shooting after damage to their transports? It's pretty easy to damage a battlewagon.

LOL you dont

10 Gitz with 30 shots is still 5 hits, against T4 thats 3-4 wounds still. So you have a 50/50 to do 3-4 AP1-3 wounds to a SM. In other words, Garbage for 375pts

**davou**

anyone else upset that the FAQ has basically fluffed away major drawbacks for the orks?

STR 4 when killing each other "because they're fired up"

and no benefit from stacking FNP effects because "They're too dumb to realize that they wouldn't stack when they kitted out"

**ZebioLizard2**

davou wrote:
anyone else upset that the FAQ has basically fluffed away major drawbacks for the orks?

STR 4 when killing each other "because they're fired up"

and no benefit from stacking FNP effects because "They're too dumb to realize that they wouldn't stack when they kitted out"

That fluff rule is from the Grotsnik one, which would indeed be because of him being insane.

But the sad thing is they just clarified things that were clear in the codex, short of errata they couldn't really do anything about it.

**Don Savik**

Either way it feels like they're ok with giving us garbage rules. We didn't pick space marines? Well you get to kill your own models because THEY'RE SO SILLY and definitely the npcs! Have fun you inept child! Yea we gave you rules that do nothing, be glad we gave you rules at all!

I don't understand pissing all over fans of one of your model ranges. It just baffles my mind.

**Vankraken**

koooaei wrote:
Well, on the other hand i had good luck with possessed a couple times i used them.

How do you deal with flash gitz and snap-shooting after damage to their transports? It's pretty easy to damage a battlewagon.

If the Git wagon is getting shot at I try to make sure it's covered by terrain to make it harder to actually damage it. If they are that hell bent on shooting that wagon then the others must already be scrap or they have really bizarre target priority. Either way I just use the snap shot turns to move the wagon up to 12". On rare occasions there are things worth charging so I might unload, snap shoot, and charge something but I avoid moving around without a transport until the later turns when enemy firepower is diminished. Even when snap shooting they tend to be risking for bikes to not jink or else they risk an AP that will melt their armor and that many snap shots hurt when they happen to be ignoring your armor.

**koooaei**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
davou wrote:
anyone else upset that the FAQ has basically fluffed away major drawbacks for the orks?

STR 4 when killing each other "because they're fired up"

and no benefit from stacking FNP effects because "They're too dumb to realize that they wouldn't stack when they kitted out"

That fluff rule is from the Grotsnik one, which would indeed be because of him being insane.

But the sad thing is they just clarified things that were clear in the codex, short of errata they couldn't really do anything about it.

It's also clear dreads have 2 attacks in the profile.

**mrhappyface**

koooaei wrote:

It's also clear dreads have 2 attacks in the profile.

Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?

**Davor**

mrhappyface wrote:
koooaei wrote:

It's also clear dreads have 2 attacks in the profile.

Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?

Because GW logic. Or GW wants more Imperium of Men sales since Orcs players were not buying enough.

**warhead01**

Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?

If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?

**xlDuke**

warhead01 wrote:
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?

SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points

**Slayer-Fan123**

I can't believe someone listed the Searchlight as though it were a benefit.

I'd gladly pay 1 less point just to get rid of it.

**xlDuke**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I can't believe someone listed the Searchlight as though it were a benefit.

I'd gladly pay 1 less point just to get rid of it.

How is it not a benefit? If I played against you I would happily let you reduce the cost of your Dread by 1 point and lose the Searchlight.

**warhead01**

SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points

I'ts just a bad time to play Orks I guess. I do have to wonder if they SM Dreads are used more now with the extra attacks than before. Or if they're still viewed more or less the same.
If Killa Kans came back down in points and dreads and Nauts dropped as well that would be fantastic.

**koooaei**

xlDuke wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?

SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points

10 pts. Bigshootas have to be bought for 5 pts each.

**xlDuke**

warhead01 wrote:
SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points

I'ts just a bad time to play Orks I guess. I do have to wonder if they SM Dreads are used more now with the extra attacks than before. Or if they're still viewed more or less the same.
If Killa Kans came back down in points and dreads and Nauts dropped as well that would be fantastic.

Indeed it is, it's been that way since I started playing but I'm no old timer and joined at the start of 6th Edition. It must feel worse for the veteran Ork players. It doesn't seem like people are taking Dreads much more at all, but I've seen the Hellbrute a bit more frequently since it had the +2 A treatment. I'd love to see Kans back at their old cost without Cowardly Grots, Deff Dreads should have 'Ere We Go, free Skorchas and 5 point PKs. G/Morkanauts should get the Effigy special rule and could be around 80 points cheaper or be SHW at the current/slightly inflated price.

**Blackie**

koooaei wrote:
xlDuke wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?

SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points

10 pts. Bigshootas have to be bought for 5 pts each.

Not 15 points? Deff dreads have 2 big shootas stock, for 85 points. You can replace them with other weapons spending some points. It's a very long time since i field a deff dread but if i remember correctly the standard model costs 85 points with 2 pks and 2 big shootas.

**xlDuke**

I've got my codex here, they cost 80 points and come with 2 PKs and 2 Big Shootas that can be swapped freely for Rokkits or pay to upgrade them to Skorchas, PKs or KMBs.

**warhead01**

Indeed it is, it's been that way since I started playing but I'm no old timer and joined at the start of 6th Edition. It must feel worse for the veteran Ork players. It doesn't seem like people are taking Dreads much more at all, but I've seen the Hellbrute a bit more frequently since it had the +2 A treatment. I'd love to see Kans back at their old cost without Cowardly Grots, Deff Dreads should have 'Ere We Go, free Skorchas and 5 point PKs. G/Morkanauts should get the Effigy special rule and could be around 80 points cheaper or be SHW at the current/slightly inflated price.

Orks are a lot harder to use now days. I don't play as much as I used to so it's difficult for me to keep my skills sharp. I don't win that much now days. I play with a fairly select group of people so even when I don't win games are close. which for me is more fun. I'd rather tie in 7 turns than win.

So far just a flat 80 point Deff dread has been the way to go. they've put in some work for me. It's come down to keeping them near where I want to have a fight I can win. using other units and setting up where I am going to take losses. sort of a rear guard unit. Trying to jump in a combat to turn the tide for the boys or jump on vehicles. It more or less has come down to how many do I put in my list Vs do I just take one with all the DCCW's.
I'm not too bothered at all about the SM Dread. Doesn't matter.

**Slayer-Fan123**

xlDuke wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I can't believe someone listed the Searchlight as though it were a benefit.

I'd gladly pay 1 less point just to get rid of it.

How is it not a benefit? If I played against you I would happily let you reduce the cost of your Dread by 1 point and lose the Searchlight.

I've played since 4th and I can count on ONE hand the amount of times I used a searchlight.

Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.

**xlDuke**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
xlDuke wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I can't believe someone listed the Searchlight as though it were a benefit.

I'd gladly pay 1 less point just to get rid of it.

How is it not a benefit? If I played against you I would happily let you reduce the cost of your Dread by 1 point and lose the Searchlight.

I've played since 4th and I can count on ONE hand the amount of times I used a searchlight.

Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.

haha. Well I'm not saying they're an awesome bit of equipment but they have their uses and I was just outlining the differences between SM and Ork Dreads. I've had Searchlights used against me fairly regularly, but admittedly it's usually from a Rhino.

**warhead01**

Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.

You can't prove that.

**Slayer-Fan123**

warhead01 wrote:
Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.

You can't prove that.

Yeah I can. Look at how many times you were able to buy one and you didn't in an old codex.

Yeah it is standard now but nobody cares.

**VeteranNoob**

I like my Orks. I roll like gak so we figured out put the onus on the opponent to roll dice and I'll just remove models. Sounds weird, but I do quite well with 120-some boys and grots and only need 20 or so to reach the enemy.

I don't think Orks are horrible, but we do have many bad match-ups.

**Lord Kragan**

warhead01 wrote:
Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.

You can't prove that.

Honestly I woulnd't. Forget about counting, I think I've never used searchlights nor felt I needed them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VeteranNoob wrote:
I like my Orks. I roll like gak so we figured out put the onus on the opponent to roll dice and I'll just remove models. Sounds weird, but I do quite well with 120-some boys and grots and only need 20 or so to reach the enemy. I don't think Orks are horrible, but we do have many bad match-ups.

Which is a pity. AoS has very comeptitive orcs (and even in tournament-tier limitations). It's almost mindboggling that GW doesn't buff them. These armies require quite hefty investments, even when taking into account the fact that people can scratchbuild... well... the whole armory as long as it runs on land. Maybe not the deffdreads, but the rest can be scratchbuild. But aerial units and boy units? They'd just make a trukkload of money with making them competitive.

**SemperMortis**

I always remember my ill fated Killa Kanz :(

35pts a model with AV11, 2 HPs, At initiative WS2 DCCWs (S10)

Now?

50pts a model with AV11, 2 HPs, At initiative WS2 DCCWS (S7!!!!!) ohh and The moronic Cowardly grots rule, you know, in case we forget never to take Killa Kanz again.