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Hi, this is somewhat a test thread for me, to get to know the people lurking in the lore, and to ask a question. Since the tyranids are capable of creating this shadow in the warp thing, could people like the SM potentially harness this to create an immensely powerful weapon? I don't even know if it would be possible to harvest but after doing my best to read lore (my head huuuurts) the capability to force this web over a planet could effectively incapacitate any psyker. or possibly a specifically trained psyker could learn this skill and use it on the battlefield to create a mini-bubble of warp shadow for the same purpose. Could this shadow warp could even be used as a shield vs chaos if put on a planet. god my threads make no sense... hopefully someone gets what I'm trying to say....

Practically, no.

Even crazy powerful SM psykers who get a little too close to the SotW risk madness. At best they can touch the fringe of the Hive Mind to get a clue of it’s intentions.

If they had the power to subjugate the Mind, they would have the power to not need to bother.

(or that’s my understanding, based on older fluff)

It doesn't really do much that's actually harmful by just being there. By the time you have enough control over the Hive Mind to make it dangerous you could just do it yourself.

In theory the effect could be replicated, but there's some very uncertain warp mechanics at play and to effectively do the same thing is practically impossible.

The Tyranids shadow is widely theorised to be a result of every tyranids organism talking. It's a chatter innumerable minns that uses the warp for communicating. The effect is like what would happen if you brought a few thousand phones and started sharing stuff over a school/job wifi, other stuff would get blocket out.

The results is that psykers can't get messages out and when they reach into the warp for power they pick up some tyranids stuff, often driving them insane as a result since the human minns is not ment for Tyranid thoughts. Most common phrase to say afterwards by surviving psykers is "the hunger, the hunger".

It actually already has been weaponsised against other Tyranids by Ciaphas Cain. Spoiler below:


In order to create the same effect you'd need a similar ammount of humans or psychic machines talking over the warp. There's many problems with this. Humans tendens to... Well, die from over using the warp. That kind of warp activity would be sure yo attract deamons and to the tech to do just doesn't exist. As a similar situation the Eldar are all psychic and travel on huge world ships (craftworlds) and they don't gerenerate enough warp feedback for the same result to happen so you can imagine the magnitude needed.

Lastly, welcome to Dakkadakka. Enjoy yourself.

I have a question of my own, related to the topic at hand : When someone (a human being in this case) dies while "being" in the Shadow (during void warfare against a hive fleet for example), does his soul still reaches the warp like it normally would ?

Engrenages wrote:
I have a question of my own, related to the topic at hand : When someone (a human being in this case) dies while "being" in the Shadow (during void warfare against a hive fleet for example), does his soul still reaches the warp like it normally would ?

Hard to say, given that a human soul is such a relatively weak thing compared to say, an Eldar soul. On death, it more or less just shrivels up and breaks down, so it's hard to really piece where it goes.

Hmmm...

Does make me wonder - could you use Gellar fields (the ship shields used to protect humans from madness in the warp) to isolate and contain 'Nids and disrupt the Shadow?

 Stormonu wrote:
Does make me wonder - could you use Gellar fields (the ship shields used to protect humans from madness in the warp) to isolate and contain 'Nids and disrupt the Shadow?

Perhaps, but why? If there's few enough Tyranids to fit inside (even a battleship-sized) Gellar Field they can just be wiped out with conventional weapons. You'd need a planet- or systemwide field to really make an impact, and the IoM doesn't have such last I heard.

I don't know if a Gellar Field would be of any use as it only (I say only, it's a big deal) takes a pocket of real space with you into the warp and keeps the warp at bay. The Shadow in the Warp is like a blanket that separates real space from the warp, so it kinda does the same thing. I think this is why certain psychic creatures like Zoanthropes can harness warp energy whereas your usual pskyer finds it difficult to manifest powers or are cut off entirely, depending on the severity of the incursion.

Also the gellar field doesn't really function as a shield as much as a shroud where Deamons are concerned. They're perfectly cappable of manifesting within a gellar field, they usually just don't want to or don't notice it to begin with. I don't think this would affect the nids. A psyker can still use their powers in a gellar field.

I'm not much for reading Tyranid fluff but fluff I have read that I would like to see hit the tabletop is that the Shadow in the Warp is psychic feedback so loud and distracting Psykers simply can't focus and rather than casting spells struggle to block the feedback out just to prevent themselves from passing out under the pressure.

I'd love to see a 24' auto deny bubble around Zoanthropes that adds in a pinning check when there's three or more Zoanthropes within 24 of a psyker. But there's a lot of things I'd love to see.

As for harnessing the Shadow there's a reason Nids don't ally well with any other army.

Yeah that'd be a kickass idea. Maybe a Tyranid-only psychic discipline with powers that cause psykers to peril on any double or gives bonuses to denials.

Different but related question, if cut off from the hive mind like the hive tyrant was killed, could a psyker take over a tyranid as a new hive tyrant? Or would that be too strenuous... I mean even if they could it wouldn't be all that helpful because if they've killed the tyrant then it's likely that most other 'nids are dead as well.

Spetulhu wrote:
Perhaps, but why? If there's few enough Tyranids to fit inside (even a battleship-sized) Gellar Field they can just be wiped out with conventional weapons. You'd need a planet- or systemwide field to really make an impact, and the IoM doesn't have such last I heard.

They did use them for hiding Titan in the Warp if I recall correctly but that was with Malcador's help.

 firechcken23 wrote:
Different but related question, if cut off from the hive mind like the hive tyrant was killed, could a psyker take over a tyranid as a new hive tyrant? Or would that be too strenuous... I mean even if they could it wouldn't be all that helpful because if they've killed the tyrant then it's likely that most other 'nids are dead as well.

Malefic Daemonology - Possession.
Mind you, I think it would cost the IoM trained Psykers at a rate almost the same as the Big E's needs.

 firechcken23 wrote:
Different but related question, if cut off from the hive mind like the hive tyrant was killed, could a psyker take over a tyranid as a new hive tyrant? Or would that be too strenuous... I mean even if they could it wouldn't be all that helpful because if they've killed the tyrant then it's likely that most other 'nids are dead as well.

I'd bet it would be possible, but I'd imagine it would be akin to listening to a few hundred conversations at once, and imposing your will on synapse creatures would be more difficult than say, a termagant.

I'd love to see a psychic Inquisitor or Librarian, however, who has taken control of a Carnifex as his personal bodyguard.

(That and an army of cowboy Orks riding/herding 'Nids )

 Stormonu wrote:

 firechcken23 wrote:
Different but related question, if cut off from the hive mind like the hive tyrant was killed, could a psyker take over a tyranid as a new hive tyrant? Or would that be too strenuous... I mean even if they could it wouldn't be all that helpful because if they've killed the tyrant then it's likely that most other 'nids are dead as well.

I'd bet it would be possible, but I'd imagine it would be akin to listening to a few hundred conversations at once, and imposing your will on synapse creatures would be more difficult than say, a termagant.

I'd love to see a psychic Inquisitor or Librarian, however, who has taken control of a Carnifex as his personal bodyguard.

(That and an army of cowboy Orks riding/herding 'Nids )

Hells yes.

 firechcken23 wrote:
Different but related question, if cut off from the hive mind like the hive tyrant was killed, could a psyker take over a tyranid as a new hive tyrant? Or would that be too strenuous... I mean even if they could it wouldn't be all that helpful because if they've killed the tyrant then it's likely that most other 'nids are dead as well.

Try CSM, we have no real limitations compared to a loyalist, as we can make fun deals with the daemons.

I think it would be cool fluff if there was a point that some mega psyker took tyranids under his control for cannon fodder after the tyrant was dead

 firechcken23 wrote:
Different but related question, if cut off from the hive mind like the hive tyrant was killed, could a psyker take over a tyranid as a new hive tyrant? Or would that be too strenuous... I mean even if they could it wouldn't be all that helpful because if they've killed the tyrant then it's likely that most other 'nids are dead as well.

That's...not how Tyranids work.

The Tyranids are a collective consciousness. The Hive Mind that controls them is not a singular entity, but rather a giant conglomeration of the consciousnesses of every Tyranid creature within the swarm, all working together towards a singular purpose. Synapse creatures act as beacons through which the psychic control of the Hive Mind can be extended and directed to lesser creatures such as Gaunts. A Hive Tyrant does not control the swarm exactly, it simply directs the will of the Hive Mind like a general would relay information to his troops. That said, if a Hive Tyrant dies, any other synaptic creature in the swarm would pick up the slack until that Hive Tyrant could be regenerated from the Hive Fleet's bio reserves.

A psyker would never, ever be able to integrate with the Hive Mind on the level that would be required to psychically control the Tyranids, even if they found a way in. That would require the psychic might to overpower the psychic presence of the entire Tyranid race. I doubt even the Emperor would be capable of something like that.

Yeah there are some incredible misconceptions about nids in this thread.

1) The shadow is not something nids manifest consciously. The shadow is the effect of the hive minds existence. The Psychic chatter of every nid organism being connected together cast the Shadow in the Warp in the same way that the air around you moves out of the way when you walk forward. No individual, or group of psykers that have ever existed in 40k lore have been capable of creating such an effect on even a small scale.


2) As nids close in on a world the shadow is such that when they are still a month out even non psykers begin the feel nervous and strained. Their nights begin to be full of nightmares and restless sleep. A general unease fills the populace. By the time the nids are a week out the planet is cut off from warp communication and those with any psyker potential begin to go mad. They gibber in unknown tongues. Warp travel to and from the planet becomes impossible because the Shadow makes the Warp impossible to traverse. By the time the fleets arrive any psyker who does not have an iron will and years of training is bleeding out their eyes and ears and die in the best of circumstances.

3) You cannot take control of the nids. As was stated they are a hive mind. Synapse creatures don't just take control, because nothing is actually in control of anything. It's just a collective that drives each other on. For a psyker to tap into a sea of psychic presences so alien and so vast that their mere existences causes the shadow in the warp would at the very least drive them mad. Adding their voice or will to the collective is like trying to drive a square peg through a round hole. But even if they did they would be one amongst untold billions upon billions of nids. They could never "take control".

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah there are some incredible misconceptions about nids in this thread.

1) The shadow is not something nids manifest consciously. The shadow is the effect of the hive minds existence. The Psychic chatter of every nid organism being connected together cast the Shadow in the Warp in the same way that the air around you moves out of the way when you walk forward. No individual, or group of psykers that have ever existed in 40k lore have been capable of creating such an effect on even a small scale.


2) As nids close in on a world the shadow is such that when they are still a month out even non psykers begin the feel nervous and strained. Their nights begin to be full of nightmares and restless sleep. A general unease fills the populace. By the time the nids are a week out the planet is cut off from warp communication and those with any psyker potential begin to go mad. They gibber in unknown tongues. Warp travel to and from the planet becomes impossible because the Shadow makes the Warp impossible to traverse. By the time the fleets arrive any psyker who does not have an iron will and years of training is bleeding out their eyes and ears and die in the best of circumstances.

3) You cannot take control of the nids. As was stated they are a hive mind. Synapse creatures don't just take control, because nothing is actually in control of anything. It's just a collective that drives each other on. For a psyker to tap into a sea of psychic presences so alien and so vast that their mere existences causes the shadow in the warp would at the very least drive them mad. Adding their voice or will to the collective is like trying to drive a square peg through a round hole. But even if they did they would be one amongst untold billions upon billions of nids. They could never "take control".

thank you! this really clears up all my questions. although it was fun to theorize while it lasted

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah there are some incredible misconceptions about nids in this thread.

1) The shadow is not something nids manifest consciously. The shadow is the effect of the hive minds existence. The Psychic chatter of every nid organism being connected together cast the Shadow in the Warp in the same way that the air around you moves out of the way when you walk forward. No individual, or group of psykers that have ever existed in 40k lore have been capable of creating such an effect on even a small scale.

Just a small quibble (of sorts) with this. Lately the Tyranids have been weaponising the Shadow to varying degrees. The Maleceptor exists entirely to harness the Shadow and use it to kill living organisms. The Maleceptor might not be manifesting the Shadow out of choice, but it is certainly choosing to 'focus' (for lack of a better word) the Shadow into literal tendrils of thought that it can stick into someone's head.

Secondly, and much more abstract, the Tyranids appear to be able to strengthen the Shadow on a grand scale if they want to. One of the Shield of Baal novellas documents a tendril of Leviathan that has focused the Shadow so greatly around its Hive Ships that psychically sensitive Eldar are instantly killed if they get too close.

I suppose you could compare the Shadow to any other element of the Tyranids; sure they use those massive carapaces for supporting their bodies, but they also make a great battering ram in a pinch.

 Darth Bob wrote:
A psyker would never, ever be able to integrate with the Hive Mind on the level that would be required to psychically control the Tyranids, even if they found a way in. That would require the psychic might to overpower the psychic presence of the entire Tyranid race. I doubt even the Emperor would be capable of something like that.

Ofc he can't overpower the Hive Mind, but could he try to dominate a lone (or a few) of the really stupid gribblies if they are cut off? Psykers can make puppets out of other races, usually only one at a time though some incredibly powerful ones can dominate entire planets.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
A psyker would never, ever be able to integrate with the Hive Mind on the level that would be required to psychically control the Tyranids, even if they found a way in. That would require the psychic might to overpower the psychic presence of the entire Tyranid race. I doubt even the Emperor would be capable of something like that.

Ofc he can't overpower the Hive Mind, but could he try to dominate a lone (or a few) of the really stupid gribblies if they are cut off? Psykers can make puppets out of other races, usually only one at a time though some incredibly powerful ones can dominate entire planets.

In the scenario he proposed, killing a Hive Tyrant and then taking its place, that would not be possible. It's as simple as that. In that scenario, when there's viable synapse creatures in the area capable of binding and directing non-synaptic Tyranids by the will of the Hive Mind, no psyker is going to be capable of overpowering it. The entire idea involves killing every viable synapse creature in the swarm, which is improbably to the point of being close to an impossibility. Non-synapse Tyranids that are cut off from the Hive Mind revert to their basic instincts. In that particular scenario, a significantly powerful psyker could theoretically take control of a lesser Tyranid beast.

However, as soon as that Tyranid comes within range of the Hive Mind's synaptic psychic control, it would revert to the will of the Hive Mind and no psyker is powerful enough to prevent that, it doesn't matter how powerful they are. They can't contend with the gestalt psychic consciousness of a race that outnumbers humanity a trillion to one.

 Darth Bob wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
A psyker would never, ever be able to integrate with the Hive Mind on the level that would be required to psychically control the Tyranids, even if they found a way in. That would require the psychic might to overpower the psychic presence of the entire Tyranid race. I doubt even the Emperor would be capable of something like that.

Ofc he can't overpower the Hive Mind, but could he try to dominate a lone (or a few) of the really stupid gribblies if they are cut off? Psykers can make puppets out of other races, usually only one at a time though some incredibly powerful ones can dominate entire planets.

In the scenario he proposed, killing a Hive Tyrant and then taking its place, that would not be possible. It's as simple as that. In that scenario, when there's viable synapse creatures in the area capable of binding and directing non-synaptic Tyranids by the will of the Hive Mind, no psyker is going to be capable of overpowering it. The entire idea involves killing every viable synapse creature in the swarm, which is improbably to the point of being close to an impossibility. Non-synapse Tyranids that are cut off from the Hive Mind revert to their basic instincts. In that particular scenario, a significantly powerful psyker could theoretically take control of a lesser Tyranid beast.

However, as soon as that Tyranid comes within range of the Hive Mind's synaptic psychic control, it would revert to the will of the Hive Mind and no psyker is powerful enough to prevent that, it doesn't matter how powerful they are. They can't contend with the gestalt psychic consciousness of a race that outnumbers humanity a trillion to one.

Just so you know, this is a hypothetical situation. I'm not saying it's necessary probable that every hive tyrant + the norn queen would be killed, but assuming it did could a psyker take over the minds of the left over tyranids.

 firechcken23 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
A psyker would never, ever be able to integrate with the Hive Mind on the level that would be required to psychically control the Tyranids, even if they found a way in. That would require the psychic might to overpower the psychic presence of the entire Tyranid race. I doubt even the Emperor would be capable of something like that.

Ofc he can't overpower the Hive Mind, but could he try to dominate a lone (or a few) of the really stupid gribblies if they are cut off? Psykers can make puppets out of other races, usually only one at a time though some incredibly powerful ones can dominate entire planets.

In the scenario he proposed, killing a Hive Tyrant and then taking its place, that would not be possible. It's as simple as that. In that scenario, when there's viable synapse creatures in the area capable of binding and directing non-synaptic Tyranids by the will of the Hive Mind, no psyker is going to be capable of overpowering it. The entire idea involves killing every viable synapse creature in the swarm, which is improbably to the point of being close to an impossibility. Non-synapse Tyranids that are cut off from the Hive Mind revert to their basic instincts. In that particular scenario, a significantly powerful psyker could theoretically take control of a lesser Tyranid beast.

However, as soon as that Tyranid comes within range of the Hive Mind's synaptic psychic control, it would revert to the will of the Hive Mind and no psyker is powerful enough to prevent that, it doesn't matter how powerful they are. They can't contend with the gestalt psychic consciousness of a race that outnumbers humanity a trillion to one.

Just so you know, this is a hypothetical situation. I'm not saying it's necessary probable that every hive tyrant + the norn queen would be killed, but assuming it did could a psyker take over the minds of the left over tyranids.

The answer is no. Also norn queens are not mentioned in the current fluff. May not exist any more.

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah there are some incredible misconceptions about nids in this thread.

1) The shadow is not something nids manifest consciously. The shadow is the effect of the hive minds existence. The Psychic chatter of every nid organism being connected together cast the Shadow in the Warp in the same way that the air around you moves out of the way when you walk forward. No individual, or group of psykers that have ever existed in 40k lore have been capable of creating such an effect on even a small scale.


2) As nids close in on a world the shadow is such that when they are still a month out even non psykers begin the feel nervous and strained. Their nights begin to be full of nightmares and restless sleep. A general unease fills the populace. By the time the nids are a week out the planet is cut off from warp communication and those with any psyker potential begin to go mad. They gibber in unknown tongues. Warp travel to and from the planet becomes impossible because the Shadow makes the Warp impossible to traverse. By the time the fleets arrive any psyker who does not have an iron will and years of training is bleeding out their eyes and ears and die in the best of circumstances.

3) You cannot take control of the nids. As was stated they are a hive mind. Synapse creatures don't just take control, because nothing is actually in control of anything. It's just a collective that drives each other on. For a psyker to tap into a sea of psychic presences so alien and so vast that their mere existences causes the shadow in the warp would at the very least drive them mad. Adding their voice or will to the collective is like trying to drive a square peg through a round hole. But even if they did they would be one amongst untold billions upon billions of nids. They could never "take control".

Since this post is the turning point of this thread I'm going to use it as a reference. I completly agree with 1 and 2, though the weaponsised shadow later mentioned was news to me. However, the third point should be possible on a small scale. As we know Tyranids revert back to their instincts behaviour without a synapse creatures to controll them by extending of the hive mind. There's two exceptions to this though, the Lictors and the Genestealers (purestrains, in case of confusion). I assume they are just as succeptible to psychic assults, including psychic domination, when operating independent of the hive mind as any sentient creatures is. If they can be dominated then it's not much of a stretch to think, say, a carniflex could be as well. Of course the hive mind would override any such extended attempts but if one where to capture a few tyranids synapse creatures (like lictors), force them into servitude through for instance Deamon host creation one might be able to command said Lictor or similar creature to command a pack of lesser organisms.

It's just a theory but it could work. Lictors remain synapse creatures outside of the hive minds control after all.

Lictors are not synapse creatures.

You still have to try an wrest control over a creature you have no common links to. When a Eldar psychically dominates a human the human mind functions very similar to the Eldars. Orks, Necrons, even deamon all have a common ground of the same basic emotions, instincts and drives. They may be taken to different extremes, felt at different levels, but the core motivations an Eldar experiences can be related to.

Not so with the nids. This is why I used the square peg in a round hole analogy. Unless you are psychically controlling each muscles to move the nid literally like a marionette the nids mind is SO alien from anything else anyone in the 40k universe has any experience with that trying to control it would be impossible. The mind itself is so alien touching the fringes of the hive mind drives men mad or kills them.

You would not be able to make a nid do something by convincing it would want to do that thing. Their minds don't work in any way relateable enough for you to implant the suggestion. You have to remember that individual nid organisms are not themselves actual organisms. They are like white blood cells in a macro organism that spans uncountable bodies constantly being digested and rebirthed. You could no more mentally dominate a carnifex then you could an orks autoimmune system.