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Hey all, had a weird question pop up about rhinos, or transports usable in kill team games in general with more than one fire point. Basically, since every model is its own "unit" for game purposes, can I have 2 marines in a rhino fire at separate targets using the 2 firepoints? It's probably clearly outlined somewhere but for the damned life of me I simply cannot find it! Also, I am going to assume the answer is yes to this, but, do Deathwatch kill teams retain their mission tactics special rule? Thanks in advance dakka!

I don't have the wording of the Kill-Team book in front of me at this exact moment but I'm pretty sure you can fire two models in a Rhino at two different targets. It isn't a situation that comes up in normal 40k much (since off the top of my head the Stormlord is the only superheavy transport (can carry multiple units) with any fire points (though I'll have to double-check the Stompa)) so I suspect there's no FAQ clarifying it, but given that an embarked unit doesn't have to fire at the same target as the transport I doubt they're restricted to shooting at the same target as another embarked unit.

As for Mission Tactics it's attached to the Deathwatch models themselves, you retain it unless you're playing a missiont that explicitly takes it away from you. You don't get the to-wound rerolls from the formations, but the to-hit rerolls you keep.

Yeah, aware of the normal 40k bit for the transports, just didnt see anything that specifically covered the situation in kill-team. And was pretty sure keeping mission tactics was in as SM keep chapter tactics as far as i'm aware. Was thinking of running a Deathwatch Kill-Team with 2 frag cannons in the rhino at an upcoming tournament next weekend. Not alot of guys, but could be hilarious seeing the looks on peoples faces and how potentially hard it could be to take out the rhino lol. Thanks for the reply! Cheers!

If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

So essentially they can have a rhino, but need to fight over which single marine is the unit that gets to use it as transport?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

They can all start deployed in it if I'm not mistaken.

I remember that all models had the IC rules but don't know if that changed.

I'm not trying to utilize rules to justify anything, in kill team games, you take a squad or so of models but once the game begins, each model counts as a unit on their own. There is a section in the rules that states up to the transports maximum capacity, each model may get into the transport with the rest of your kill team even if it was a dedicated transport. You can not start in the transport unless it was a dedicated transport. My conundrum is that, if each model counts as a unit, has explicit permission to embark multiple "units", would they each need to shoot at the same target? Not trying to be gamey in the least here, just want to know the proper way of handling it.

I think a unit with split fire, embarked upon a transport with multiple fire points, could fire at multiple targets (in regular 40K).

I would treat multiple units in the same vehicle the same way: each unit can fire at a different target. I think it makes sense, but I can't find a rule to back it up.

Yeah it makes sense to me as well, but again with 40k, just because it makes sense doesn't mean much for the game! lol

There is no rule that forbids you from doing this. A 10 man squad who has combat squaded may fire 1 weapon from each squad at separate targets as they are separate units.

Elric Greywolf wrote:If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

I do not have the current Kill Team rules, but the previous version had a specific rule right under Every Man for Himself for Transport Vehicles which basically states that the unit limit from 40K doesn't matter, just the Capacity. The rules for Dedicated Transports still applies and only those models which were part of the original unit selection can start embark on their Dedicated Transport.

I don't see this as changing too much with the current rules, nor have I heard anyone saying it no longer applies.

 Charistoph wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

I do not have the current Kill Team rules, but the previous version had a specific rule right under Every Man for Himself for Transport Vehicles which basically states that the unit limit from 40K doesn't matter, just the Capacity. The rules for Dedicated Transports still applies and only those models which were part of the original unit selection can start embark on their Dedicated Transport.

I don't see this as changing too much with the current rules, nor have I heard anyone saying it no longer applies.

As far as recall this is no longer the case. It came up in a game I was playing and I was still in old style kill team thoughts. But when we cracked open the rules it says something along the lines of follow all the rules for transports in the brb. And that all models are individual units. Nothing about letting more than 1 guy in a transport. Was a shock to me too but in a way made sense. Stopped people hiding out in trucks the whole game. And from a narrative point of view its the ride they use to get to the mission spot, then they all get out to do the jib except for 1 who stays in to guard the escape.

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

I do not have the current Kill Team rules, but the previous version had a specific rule right under Every Man for Himself for Transport Vehicles which basically states that the unit limit from 40K doesn't matter, just the Capacity. The rules for Dedicated Transports still applies and only those models which were part of the original unit selection can start embark on their Dedicated Transport.

I don't see this as changing too much with the current rules, nor have I heard anyone saying it no longer applies.

As far as recall this is no longer the case. It came up in a game I was playing and I was still in old style kill team thoughts. But when we cracked open the rules it says something along the lines of follow all the rules for transports in the brb. And that all models are individual units. Nothing about letting more than 1 guy in a transport. Was a shock to me too but in a way made sense. Stopped people hiding out in trucks the whole game. And from a narrative point of view its the ride they use to get to the mission spot, then they all get out to do the jib except for 1 who stays in to guard the escape.

You purchase a unit. That unit purchases a dedicated transport. All models in that unit can start in their dedicated transport at the beginning of the game. This is covered by the fact that a 10 man unit that has been combat squaded can start in the same vehicle when deploying.

I don´t know whether a model can get back into the vehicle if there was someone still in there.

The way I see it at deployment you are all treated as individual units so you can't deploy them all inside. However, SM is a good one. Before warlord traits, and before deployment, you can combat squad. You then have permission to deploy two models in the transport and take use of the two fire points. I'm away from my books at the moment so I'll have a check on the exact wordings and timings of everything when I get baklck to them though.

I don't have my codex atm but don't Rhinos have a single firepoint, which allows two models to fire?
May or may not be relevant, but check the wording.

Nice try Rawne, but no. Looks like you didn't read the thread, or even the posts you quoted!

Re-read the "Combat Squads" rule and then try again. It specifically states how many models must be in the units--the parent unit as well as the two split units.
Hint: it's more than one model.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Nice try Rawne, but no. Looks like you didn't read the thread, or even the posts you quoted!

Re-read the "Combat Squads" rule and then try again. It specifically states how many models must be in the units--the parent unit as well as the two split units.
Hint: it's more than one model.

Combat Squads are determined before Deployment, though, so before all the models are separated out in to individual units. The end number of units when the game starts does not change this determination.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Nice try Rawne, but no. Looks like you didn't read the thread, or even the posts you quoted!

Re-read the "Combat Squads" rule and then try again. It specifically states how many models must be in the units--the parent unit as well as the two split units.
Hint: it's more than one model.

Combat squads was an example where more than 1 unit may occupy a transport which everyone in the thread was saying you can´t do anymore. This rule is the precedent which says you can. The fact that my 10 man squad is now split into 10 one man units rather than 2 five man units is irrelevant.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Nice try Rawne, but no. Looks like you didn't read the thread, or even the posts you quoted!

Re-read the "Combat Squads" rule and then try again. It specifically states how many models must be in the units--the parent unit as well as the two split units.
Hint: it's more than one model.

Combat squads was an example where more than 1 unit may occupy a transport which everyone in the thread was saying you can´t do anymore. This rule is the precedent which says you can. The fact that my 10 man squad is now split into 10 one man units rather than 2 five man units is irrelevant.

Are you asserting you can at anytime? or at deployment only? I may understand during deployment you deployed "the unit" embarked on its transport, but after the game starts.. I am less inclined to give the benefit of the doubt.

Initially just deployment. However I have played in tournaments that have allowed both combat squad units to get back in (however I think this was a specific FAQ as defined by ETC or something and not applied to everyone one as if it was from a GW FAQ)

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

I do not have the current Kill Team rules, but the previous version had a specific rule right under Every Man for Himself for Transport Vehicles which basically states that the unit limit from 40K doesn't matter, just the Capacity. The rules for Dedicated Transports still applies and only those models which were part of the original unit selection can start embark on their Dedicated Transport.

I don't see this as changing too much with the current rules, nor have I heard anyone saying it no longer applies.

As far as recall this is no longer the case. It came up in a game I was playing and I was still in old style kill team thoughts. But when we cracked open the rules it says something along the lines of follow all the rules for transports in the brb. And that all models are individual units. Nothing about letting more than 1 guy in a transport. Was a shock to me too but in a way made sense. Stopped people hiding out in trucks the whole game. And from a narrative point of view its the ride they use to get to the mission spot, then they all get out to do the jib except for 1 who stays in to guard the escape.

Transport Vehicles: Transport vehicles can carry a number of models equal to their Transport Capacity (but following all of the normal restrictions), regardless of which unit they were selected from during Kill Team selection. However, only models that were selected as part of the same unit during Kill Team selection, and were assigned a Dedicated Transport, can begin the game embarked upon their Dedicated Transport.

It overrides the "one unit per transport" rule, and if you purchased a Rhino as a fast attack option, up to 10 models from different units can start embarked upon it, as none purchased it as a Dedicated Transport.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Transport Vehicles: Transport vehicles can carry a number of models equal to their Transport Capacity (but following all of the normal restrictions), regardless of which unit they were selected from during Kill Team selection. However, only models that were selected as part of the same unit during Kill Team selection, and were assigned a Dedicated Transport, can begin the game embarked upon their Dedicated Transport.

It overrides the "one unit per transport" rule, and if you purchased a Rhino as a fast attack option, up to 10 models from different units can start embarked upon it, as none purchased it as a Dedicated Transport.

Thank you. I assume that this is from the current ruleset, then, as it matches the 6th Edition version?

 Charistoph wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Transport Vehicles: Transport vehicles can carry a number of models equal to their Transport Capacity (but following all of the normal restrictions), regardless of which unit they were selected from during Kill Team selection. However, only models that were selected as part of the same unit during Kill Team selection, and were assigned a Dedicated Transport, can begin the game embarked upon their Dedicated Transport.

It overrides the "one unit per transport" rule, and if you purchased a Rhino as a fast attack option, up to 10 models from different units can start embarked upon it, as none purchased it as a Dedicated Transport.

Thank you. I assume that this is from the current ruleset, then, as it matches the 6th Edition version?

Yeah, it's from the current digital edition. Page 12, for reference, if that helps anyone.

See how much clearer and obvious this discussion becomes once someone quotes the actual rules? It's a non-issue once that rule is quoted, there's no argument left!

Maybe giving those in the OP would help....

Jacksmiles wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

I do not have the current Kill Team rules, but the previous version had a specific rule right under Every Man for Himself for Transport Vehicles which basically states that the unit limit from 40K doesn't matter, just the Capacity. The rules for Dedicated Transports still applies and only those models which were part of the original unit selection can start embark on their Dedicated Transport.

I don't see this as changing too much with the current rules, nor have I heard anyone saying it no longer applies.

As far as recall this is no longer the case. It came up in a game I was playing and I was still in old style kill team thoughts. But when we cracked open the rules it says something along the lines of follow all the rules for transports in the brb. And that all models are individual units. Nothing about letting more than 1 guy in a transport. Was a shock to me too but in a way made sense. Stopped people hiding out in trucks the whole game. And from a narrative point of view its the ride they use to get to the mission spot, then they all get out to do the jib except for 1 who stays in to guard the escape.

Transport Vehicles: Transport vehicles can carry a number of models equal to their Transport Capacity (but following all of the normal restrictions), regardless of which unit they were selected from during Kill Team selection. However, only models that were selected as part of the same unit during Kill Team selection, and were assigned a Dedicated Transport, can begin the game embarked upon their Dedicated Transport.

It overrides the "one unit per transport" rule, and if you purchased a Rhino as a fast attack option, up to 10 models from different units can start embarked upon it, as none purchased it as a Dedicated Transport.

"But following all the normal restrictions" This would bring up the restriction of only 1 unit can be in a transport vehicle at a time.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Spoiler:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:If each model is a separate unit, how would multiple units be getting into the Rhino in the first place?

Combat Squads specifies the number of models in each of the two units, so you can't use that rule to justify it.

I do not have the current Kill Team rules, but the previous version had a specific rule right under Every Man for Himself for Transport Vehicles which basically states that the unit limit from 40K doesn't matter, just the Capacity. The rules for Dedicated Transports still applies and only those models which were part of the original unit selection can start embark on their Dedicated Transport.

I don't see this as changing too much with the current rules, nor have I heard anyone saying it no longer applies.

As far as recall this is no longer the case. It came up in a game I was playing and I was still in old style kill team thoughts. But when we cracked open the rules it says something along the lines of follow all the rules for transports in the brb. And that all models are individual units. Nothing about letting more than 1 guy in a transport. Was a shock to me too but in a way made sense. Stopped people hiding out in trucks the whole game. And from a narrative point of view its the ride they use to get to the mission spot, then they all get out to do the jib except for 1 who stays in to guard the escape.

Transport Vehicles: Transport vehicles can carry a number of models equal to their Transport Capacity (but following all of the normal restrictions), regardless of which unit they were selected from during Kill Team selection. However, only models that were selected as part of the same unit during Kill Team selection, and were assigned a Dedicated Transport, can begin the game embarked upon their Dedicated Transport.

It overrides the "one unit per transport" rule, and if you purchased a Rhino as a fast attack option, up to 10 models from different units can start embarked upon it, as none purchased it as a Dedicated Transport.

"But following all the normal restrictions" This would bring up the restriction of only 1 unit can be in a transport vehicle at a time.

No. That is specifically overridden b the rules presented. It is in reference to things such as unit type, transport capacity, special rules (e.g. a Rhino may not carry Bulky models) etc.

Yes miss read the full stop as a comma.