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With all the power creep going on, is it still cheese to bring a gladius with 8 free razorbacks in a double demi company gladius?

Or is that just a necessary tactic to stay viable these days for vanilla space marines?

I have wanted to do it for a long time but never bought the extra vehicles needed because everyone always cried so much. But they dont seem to mind bringing retribition cadres with drone nets and the like...

And is it ok... to spam grav on top of it? Or has that gone too far?

I know some will say it depends on your local meta but but im curious what others think outside of my local game shop.

My IG don't get 'free' Chimeras, so yeah. If it's 'free', it's cheese unless all armies get 'free' transports as well.

Not a tactic anyways, just a sales gimmick...

In a competitive environment?
Go ahead.
You will be facing just as bad, if not worse from other armies.


In friendly games?
Still considered a dick move.

Of course its cheese. You are getting free vehicles in your formation, which is clearly a sales gimmick.

Its just that Tau also have cheese, and they don't like anyone elses. They pay for theirs, for one thing.

Tau's power units are so undercosted that it makes up for the free transports, though.

The fact that people are still this blind to the fact that an extra powerful rule, like your whole army having better reanimation protocols, is also something free, is completely beyond me.

Martel732 wrote:
Tau's power units are so undercosted that it makes it for the free transports, though.

That was my thought.

 Purifier wrote:
The fact that people are still this blind to the fact that an extra powerful rule, like your whole army having better reanimation protocols, is also something free, is completely beyond me.

I'm not blind to that. I know that exists, and it really shouldn't. I could make the argument that its still a little different, as the necron decurion doesn't allow you to deploy a bunch of free vehicles on the field, but that still doesn't change the fact that the free buffs you get are ridiculous. I felt dirty even reading them. Like I punched a baby.
Formations are a mistake. If you are going to add buffs like that there should be a price tag on it, in addition to cost of units. That's how it was when they were first introduced in apocalypse.

 Purifier wrote:
The fact that people are still this blind to the fact that an extra powerful rule, like your whole army having better reanimation protocols, is also something free, is completely beyond me.

Indeed, doesnt everyone get free stuff now? Maybe not an actual models, but arent some of the abilities granted for free worth at least that much? I dont understand how people can complain about free stuff while playing with upgraded rules that they didnt pay for.

Also, thats a sales gimmic too...

Generally speaking, Formations, Super-Heavies, and Invisible/2++ deathstars should only be taken when your opponent is also taking the same kind of thing. These three things are pretty much at the centre of all the high-powered hi-jinks, but they also provide some balance against each other. Invisibility, or something else that provides insane amounts of survivability (like a 2++ save, or a rerollable Inv save, or any of these combined) needs Super-Heavies in order to counter them. You need Strength D and/or Stomps to have a hope of getting the "6" result to just instantly-kill them. To fight a Super-Heavy you need a strong army as a whole, spread out in power so as not to just be demolished in a single shot/stomp, and formations help you do that. But you need Invisible Deathstars in order to have the survivability against a massively strong formation so as to start walking through them.

Three broken things = balance.

Of course, that means if you don't have the broken thing that counters your opponent, well the game is in danger of having chosen rock when you chose paper. For this reason, I would stick away from these broken things unless you're going for competitive games. Once you're going competitive, feel free to go broken, because there's a lot of play there, and it's not as cleanly cut as I made it sound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kellevil wrote:
Indeed, doesnt everyone get free stuff now? Maybe not an actual models, but arent some of the abilities granted for free worth at least that much? I dont understand how people can complain about free stuff while playing with upgraded rules that they didnt pay for.

Also, thats a sales gimmic too...

Astra Militarum, Harlequins, and Orks would like to have a word with you. Right after the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights.

 Jackal wrote:
In a competitive environment?
Go ahead.
You will be facing just as bad, if not worse from other armies.

In friendly games?
Still considered a dick move.

This.

40k is a fun game, as long as you and your opponent are on the same page about what power level you want to play at. The full company gladius MSU spam list is one of our better options in the competitive circle. If your opponents are playing top lists, you have every right to field yours. If they are bringing less competitive lists, you should as well. The goal is for everyone to have fun. Kicking puppies is not fun, and that’s what you end up with when someone brings a power list to a friendly game.

Formations were the biggest mistake of 6/7e.

"Hey let's take an unbalanced game and unevenly distribute more power multipliers and ways to tax evade while taking only the best units!"

If the players had given the finger to the original firebase cadre, the tourney scene would be a lot healthier and much more approachable for the middling armies now.

I highly suggest in friendly games that you treat formations like people used to treat super heavies. Have people say something before bringing them so the opponent can prepare in kind.

 Yarium wrote:
Generally speaking, Formations, Super-Heavies, and Invisible/2++ deathstars should only be taken when your opponent is also taking the same kind of thing. These three things are pretty much at the centre of all the high-powered hi-jinks, but they also provide some balance against each other. Invisibility, or something else that provides insane amounts of survivability (like a 2++ save, or a rerollable Inv save, or any of these combined) needs Super-Heavies in order to counter them. You need Strength D and/or Stomps to have a hope of getting the "6" result to just instantly-kill them. To fight a Super-Heavy you need a strong army as a whole, spread out in power so as not to just be demolished in a single shot/stomp, and formations help you do that. But you need Invisible Deathstars in order to have the survivability against a massively strong formation so as to start walking through them.

Three broken things = balance.

Of course, that means if you don't have the broken thing that counters your opponent, well the game is in danger of having chosen rock when you chose paper. For this reason, I would stick away from these broken things unless you're going for competitive games. Once you're going competitive, feel free to go broken, because there's a lot of play there, and it's not as cleanly cut as I made it sound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kellevil wrote:
Indeed, doesnt everyone get free stuff now? Maybe not an actual models, but arent some of the abilities granted for free worth at least that much? I dont understand how people can complain about free stuff while playing with upgraded rules that they didnt pay for.

Also, thats a sales gimmic too...

Astra Militarum, Harlequins, and Orks would like to have a word with you. Right after the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights.

Well said sir. Thank you.

 Yarium wrote:

Astra Militarum, Harlequins, and Orks would like to have a word with you. Right after the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights.

And Sisters of Battle, and if Harlequins are an army of their own (and not just some addition to Eldar) then Skitarii are probably too, and their formations mostly hurt more than they help. I mean we can go as deep as we want with this and find all kinds of grey-zones. But we will obviously have to compare to other formations.

If you're saying that "all formations are bad and should be abolished" then that's fair. You're arguing a solid point. But the "free stuff"-formations are getting a lot more hate than any others, and they're not even the worst, only because people can't get their heads around the concept of other bonuses being worth any points.

You're arguing that having something mediocre is horrible because there are some that have nothing, while seemingly ignoring that there are those that have better. The question here is "are people that are using things like necron formations themselves still whining so hard at free stuff that it's counted as unacceptable as a general concensus?"

 Purifier wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Astra Militarum, Harlequins, and Orks would like to have a word with you. Right after the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights.

And Sisters of Battle, and if Harlequins are an army of their own (and not just some addition to Eldar) then Skitarii are probably too, and their formations mostly hurt more than they help. I mean we can go as deep as we want with this and find all kinds of grey-zones. But we will obviously have to compare to other formations.

If you're saying that "all formations are bad and should be abolished" then that's fair. You're arguing a solid point. But the "free stuff"-formations are getting a lot more hate than any others, and they're not even the worst, only because people can't get their heads around the concept of other bonuses being worth any points.

You're arguing that having something mediocre is horrible because there are some that have nothing, while seemingly ignoring that there are those that have better. The question here is "are people that are using things like necron formations themselves still whining so hard at free stuff that it's counted as unacceptable as a general concensus?"

Exactly! I see guys bring in all kinds of crazy stuff and nobody cares. A while back a dude brings in 3 riptides and the guys i was playing with were like 'oh hey, look at that'. But if i mention free razorbacks i feel like im gonna get stabbed in the eye with some spru. It doesnt seem fair.

I play guard also so i understand the hate for all the cool stuff that a few of the armies have but i think there is a weird level of hate for free vehicles. With all the new stuff out i was hoping that people were starting to think its ok now but apparently unless you are in a major tournament free vehicles makes you a dick.

 Purifier wrote:
And Sisters of Battle, and if Harlequins are an army of their own (and not just some addition to Eldar) then Skitarii are probably too, and their formations mostly hurt more than they help. I mean we can go as deep as we want with this and find all kinds of grey-zones. But we will obviously have to compare to other formations.

If you're saying that "all formations are bad and should be abolished" then that's fair. You're arguing a solid point. But the "free stuff"-formations are getting a lot more hate than any others, and they're not even the worst, only because people can't get their heads around the concept of other bonuses being worth any points.

You're arguing that having something mediocre is horrible because there are some that have nothing, while seemingly ignoring that there are those that have better. The question here is "are people that are using things like necron formations themselves still whining so hard at free stuff that it's counted as unacceptable as a general concensus?"

Sorry, not sure if I'm getting your question here. Is this what you were asking? (no snark intended, just honestly unclear)
"You are saying that all formations are bad, when that is not necessarily true. Are you saying that people should ban using even the bad formations just because some formations are much stronger than others?"

If that is what you are saying, then I would answer that no, this is not what I am saying. Hence the use of the term "Generally" at the start of my post. Case in point; scatterbikes. It is possible to make a very competitive Eldar army without resorting to Formations, Super Heavies, or Deathstars. This is also why I said that "it's not as cleanly cut as I made it sound". However, as a general rule of thumb, it would be good form to only take a formation if your opponent is aware of your intent on taking a formation so that they may "up their game" accordingly if required. The Harlequin Cast of Players is a formation, but the requirement to keep them all together (you can't split off the Shadowseer and Death Jester), and lack of Run & Charge, means that there's a real "cost" to running this formation that there normally wouldn't be, even though they are not paying any points for their bonuses. It is also one of the most cost-effective ways of adding Harlequins to an Eldar or Dark Eldar army without needing to buy a lot of models or going Unbound. I would say that this Formation breaks my own statement. I'd still inform my opponent that I plan on bringing some Harlequins in a small formation, but I'd tell them that it's just the Cast of Players, so isn't really strong, but just lets me use some Harlequins that I've painted up without going Unbound.

EDIT:
What I do try to accomplish is having a quick communication with my opponent ahead of time. I just did a game against TheBasementCollective on twitch, and prior to that game I asked if they wanted a game against a Casual list or a Semi-Competitive list. I didn't say Competitive, because The BasementCollective guys can run absolutely insane things. He wanted Semi-Competitive, since he wanted to play Tau. He brought a Hunter Contingent and a Stormsurge, along with two Riptide. Meanwhile, I brought an Eldar CAD with Scatbikes, the Cast of Players, and a Wraithknight. His list was probably stronger than mine, but not insanely so (and no Riptide-Wing so, and the Riptides didn't have the Feel No Pain bonus). He decimated my army, but I used Invisibility and Veil of Tears in tandem to make it so that my 3 remaining models survived long enough to win the game on points. It was a tight and tough-fought match, but it was a good match because we had at least the smallest of discussions ahead of time.

The only issue with my method is that it's hard to do a pick-up game against someone you don't know. It's harder to just have enough army stuff on hand for a variety of pickup game types, and it's harder to make sure you're both on the same level so that when one person says "Semi-Competitive" that the other person has a rough idea of what that means.

As an almost-always casual player I think formations in general are crap. The purpose of formations should be to let you take different lists, not a way to get free things (rules or stuff).

I'm not overly familiar with all the formations in the game (as I only ever see or hear about the cheesy ones) but I am a fan of stuff like the deathwing formation as it's the only way to take a deathwing army. Even with it though the formation should just be an alternate CAD, only providing special rules if you pay maybe 5-10 points per unit (at least in this case, as it's not a huge buff).

If a formation just says "take these things and suddenly get 500 free points" or "your whole army gets a free special rule" it just doesn't belong in this game. Why would you run any list that doesn't give free stuff? As a result, you see fewer and fewer builds that people actually use, instead all piling aboard the formation train and dooming us to play against the same 5 lists.

This kind of proves my point in the way people think about this one formation. If i was to ask if any other formation was ok you would hear various arguments but none of them would be on the merrits of free stuff even though all formations are free stuff.

But you bring up free transport vehicles, very tame ones at that, and we get everyone screaming free stuff is the devil and only in tournaments.

I think free stuff is really hated because it's really clear and measurable how much you get for your formation.

Well, I think the core of the issue is whether or not players are making meaningful choices. I play 40k in order to play 40k, not to see a game of 40k get played. When players are not making meaningful choices, then the game of 40k is being played for them.

Point in fact; I really have disliked playing with a Baneblade. Sure, it's not the most powerful Super Heavy or anything, and I lost the game, but I just didn't feel like I was making meaningful decisions. I just shot the stuff at the best targets every turn, and moved in the best way every turn, and the choices of what was "best" were blatantly obvious. I didn't lose the model because my opponent was clever, but rather because he zero-scatter deep striked in with Fire Dragons and barely pushed through the dice to blow it up.

Shrug.

That was a game where the game played itself. Neither of us were happy because it just sort of happened on its own. Now, maybe in other games with different opponents this wouldn't have been the case, but in that situation it really was just super disappointing to see a game play itself.

I prefer to play army lists that require lots of thought. I'm playing a lot of Genestealer Cult right now, because the Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows has really cool dynamics that benefit you greatly when played well, punish you harshly when played poorly, and which can be hard to distinguish. It might sound easy to just fly into the fray whenever you roll a 5 or 6, but your guys are still just Guardsmen at heart, so doing this opens you up to significant risk. Plus, you don't know your next rolls until you're doing placing (and possible shooting with) your last placed unit. Roll an early 6, but don't think the unit has enough strength to smash face on their own? You're really going to have to think differently on whether or not you should be putting them 3" away from the enemy. If you screw that up, you'll pay for it hard!

Not all formations do this, and not all armies do this, but if you have an army that lets you just sit back and go to town without actually thinking, then I for one stop enjoying the game. Whether playing with or against that force, it just saps the fun out of it. If your army list is just "I ObSec spam to the point that literally you can't kill all of it" with free transports, then what real thought is necessary when playing against someone that isn't capable of actually defeating that? If they can defeat it, then great! It's an interesting game again! If they can't defeat it, then why are you even playing that game?

Free anything is cheese, and more to the point, unfair. That and the war convocation, it's just not reasonable to bring a ~2300+ army to an 1850 game.

Everything should be balanced with the appropriate points cost, whether that is a unit or a rule. But balance and appropriate points costs are kryptonite to GW.

Absolute cheese. This is why formations have hurt 40k and many flgs have less 40k activity going on.

In essence, 6th and 7th editions became smaller apocalypse games with flyers, superheavies, formations, etc. The difference was you had to have the units and pay the point costs for the formation rewards. Now it's free this, special rule that... basically pay to play.

They intentionally threw balance out to sell old models. This is why they are going to 8th after the short lives of 6th and 7th. They know most hate the new editions. Hell, I'd take blasphemous aos-40k before another formation and super heavy ridden 40k.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Free anything is cheese, and more to the point, unfair. That and the war convocation, it's just not reasonable to bring a ~2300+ army to an 1850 game.

But how else is the Ad-Mech army going to have the points spare to throw in Coteaz and a Culexus Assassin?

Pretty much had a crappy last game at a local tournament this weekend - second War Convocation out of three games - complete with Coteaz and a Culexus.

Deleted half my army after seizing the initiative with that reroll, shut down the psychic phase and then had the gall to get salty because I conceded Turn One.

Apparently you should continue to play out a game which is going to be utterly miserable just so your opponent can be happy.

That is what I was told.

I was straight up told that my mental wellbeing was less important than their asinine scoring system.

I've seen top table MtG players concede on draw with $50k on the line. Being told I'm not allowed to concede a game where I can literally do nothing but remove models while my opponent rolls dice and giggles that he brought a 2500 point army to a 2k game, being miserable the whole time, is complete and utter bullgak if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
The fact that people are still this blind to the fact that an extra powerful rule, like your whole army having better reanimation protocols, is also something free, is completely beyond me.

The thing is...the armies getting the free transports and upgrades...are ALSO getting similarly powerful rules as well on top.

In theory, "free" stuff isn't actually free in a formation, but instead comes at a cost of some kind. In practice, a lot of formations give a lot more benefit than they cost elsewhere, and you end up with a formation that is cheesey/overpowered (Gladius, Decurion, War Convocation, Riptide Wing, etc.) in comparison to CADs and other more balanced formations.

Sometimes that cost is in the form of a "tax" unit, a unit that punches below its weight - Tactical Marine squads for the Gladius are commonly considered this and a lot will argue that Razorbacks/Rhinos are not generally worth their points, though the overwhelming consensus is pretty clear that this tax doesn't offset the benefit of getting those for free/severely reduced cost.

Sometimes that cost is simply in the form of losing a reroll on your Warlord Trait and/or losing ObSec on your troops. It isn't always the most impressive bonus in the world, but it isn't nothing, and not all formations grant them (though at least the rerolling Warlord Trait is ubiquitous if using a decurion-style formation).

Vintage Cheddar. I also observe Wensleydale, Red Leicester, Brie, Monterey Jack and various other flavours I prefer to eat rather than see on a gaming table.

If everyone is going to digress then i shall too;

I dont disagree that free stuff breaks the game. I think formations are the worst thing that has happened to 40k since i started playing. But they seem to be here to stay. I started a thread about game balance last year where i stated that very thing. But in that thread was told that formations were ok. And no one seemed to be willing to get rid of them.

So i wait until the power level continues to creap upwards and then ask if i can bring my cool formation. But everyone seems to think it would be in bad form.

So really the only thing that is fine for me to bring is my 6th edition list with 3 paid for rhinos and missile launchers. Cause grav is bad too. Oh but hey, i do get that 1 extra tactical doctrine.

I might get the head nod to bring grav but if i win it is because they couldnt overcome my 1 unit of devastators with 4 grav cannons. Also its also uncool to bring centurion devastators with grav so it must be plain ole unbuffed devastators.

Oh, and lets not forget i cant use invisibility on my old school assault squad with a power fist. Cause thats uncool too. Never mind that my opponent has a formation increasing his firepower by an fair margin and increasing his durability by at least 1/3. But its not as bad as free vehicles.

Sorry, I dont mean to rant. It was genually not the intent of the thread but I suppose I didnt expect this much negativity towards the formation in question. Ahh well...

Kellevil - I see your point bud and it's a stigma.
Grav, free, riptide, wraith, scatter, all of those are keywords to people crying.

And that's before they look at it in actual context.
A regular army with one or 2 of these thrown in is not broken, but the stigma about these things over time has caused a knee jerk reaction to them.

I've seen recently a lad running 2 riptides (no big deal) get constant crap from the other player about being a WAAC gamer.
This was coming from someone running twin wraithknights and scatter bikes in what was meant to be a 1850 friendly game.





However, I'm lucky with my local group.
We either agree to have a laugh and just take whatever we can throw together into a rough list, or we go over the top on pure cheese, with the sole purpose of smashing the hell our of each other and someone winning by 3rd turn at the latest.







But overall free units themselves are not bad.
While nothing should be free, you have to pay a tax on troops you wouldn't usually have just to get those.

Other formations can give benefits that cause a lot more issues.
People need to see that these can be a lot worse than a few free transports.



Either way though, take me back to force org standard lists with none of this crap thrown in.
(Wait, they have, it's called 30k)

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Free anything is cheese, and more to the point, unfair. That and the war convocation, it's just not reasonable to bring a ~2300+ army to an 1850 game.

But how else is the Ad-Mech army going to have the points spare to throw in Coteaz and a Culexus Assassin?

Pretty much had a crappy last game at a local tournament this weekend - second War Convocation out of three games - complete with Coteaz and a Culexus.

Deleted half my army after seizing the initiative with that reroll, shut down the psychic phase and then had the gall to get salty because I conceded Turn One.

Apparently you should continue to play out a game which is going to be utterly miserable just so your opponent can be happy.

That is what I was told.

I was straight up told that my mental wellbeing was less important than their asinine scoring system.

I've seen top table MtG players concede on draw with $50k on the line. Being told I'm not allowed to concede a game where I can literally do nothing but remove models while my opponent rolls dice and giggles that he brought a 2500 point army to a 2k game, being miserable the whole time, is complete and utter bullgak if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
The fact that people are still this blind to the fact that an extra powerful rule, like your whole army having better reanimation protocols, is also something free, is completely beyond me.

The thing is...the armies getting the free transports and upgrades...are ALSO getting similarly powerful rules as well on top.

You can concede at any time. Anyone who tells you otherwise is deluded. That's how a game between two individuals works.

 Jackal wrote:
Kellevil - I see your point bud and it's a stigma.
Grav, free, riptide, wraith, scatter, all of those are keywords to people crying.

And that's before they look at it in actual context.
A regular army with one or 2 of these thrown in is not broken, but the stigma about these things over time has caused a knee jerk reaction to them.

I've seen recently a lad running 2 riptides (no big deal) get constant crap from the other player about being a WAAC gamer.
This was coming from someone running twin wraithknights and scatter bikes in what was meant to be a 1850 friendly game.





However, I'm lucky with my local group.
We either agree to have a laugh and just take whatever we can throw together into a rough list, or we go over the top on pure cheese, with the sole purpose of smashing the hell our of each other and someone winning by 3rd turn at the latest.







But overall free units themselves are not bad.
While nothing should be free, you have to pay a tax on troops you wouldn't usually have just to get those.

Other formations can give benefits that cause a lot more issues.
People need to see that these can be a lot worse than a few free transports.



Either way though, take me back to force org standard lists with none of this crap thrown in.
(Wait, they have, it's called 30k)

Thanks man. It is indeed a weird place to be with a game / hobby.

I actually bought some 30k stuff because that seemed like a good option. But i dont know anyone else who plays 30k so it mostly sits on my shelf.