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S4 shots with no special rules are a dumpster fire in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
Ion accelerators are S8.

This is true. Going to fall back on 'don't balance standalone changes to fight the most OP things around' for the moment, going to take a random walk through statlines/rules and see what I come up with.

(Off the top of my head giving all Terminators a bonus Wound and Eternal Warrior (on the logic that they stuck it on the Custodes to avoid the inevitable anticlimactic instance of a Demolisher cannon wiping the squad) would raise the question of why multi-wound anything doesn't have Eternal Warrior, and/or whether double-Strength Instant Death is a good idea more broadly. A WHFB-esque approach wherein double-S-to-ID (and ID more broadly) didn't exist and got replaced with a multiple-wounds keyword on some big single-target guns (Railguns, the single-target Fire Prism mode...) and some big melee weapons (powerfists, warscythes, force weapons...) could open the design space for more multi-wound infantry, give single-target big guns more reason to exist over blasts, upend the MC/GMC-v-vehicles dynamic pretty seriously...)

(I should probably spend some time thinking about that and give it its own thread, it is a pretty big topic.)


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Martel732 wrote:
S4 shots with no special rules are a dumpster fire in 7th.

If we accept Scatterbikes as "normal" and Tactical Marines as "trash" the power creep has won.

This is Proposed Rules. We can design to any play environment we want in here.

How would people fee about allowing something link special ammo to be used on stormbolters (and there for terminators) as well?

Also maybe make a show that they are veterans and mark Tactical Term BS5 and Assault Terms WS5?

Now that riptide is facing 10 shots, hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ which should take 2-3 wounds of it a turn.

Chaos, Orks and GK would obviously need their own equivalents (hopefully not just a copy/paste job)

Final thought, as these kind of units are meant to be able to deal with heavy loads when it comes to guns thanks to relentless, How would people feel if these units gain a similar rule or unwieldy CC weapons. Attacking at I3 or 4 will often get them in before or at the same time as GMC/MC (excluding things like Greater Daemons which should just be faster then these units anyway).

"This is Proposed Rules. We can design to any play environment we want in here."

That's far beyond just changes to terminators though. Given the current state of the game, I don't see any fix for them.

Martel732 wrote:
"This is Proposed Rules. We can design to any play environment we want in here."

That's far beyond just changes to terminators though. Given the current state of the game, I don't see any fix for them.

Do you have anything more useful to contribute than "The game is f***ed, there's no fix for it"?

There's no fix for terminators. Big difference. My actual fix is a total rewrite because gw has put themselves in a mathematical box. There's not enough mathematical space to differentiate units.

ScarVet101 wrote:
How would people fee about allowing something link special ammo to be used on stormbolters (and there for terminators) as well?

Also maybe make a show that they are veterans and mark Tactical Term BS5 and Assault Terms WS5?

Now that riptide is facing 10 shots, hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ which should take 2-3 wounds of it a turn.

Chaos, Orks and GK would obviously need their own equivalents (hopefully not just a copy/paste job)

Final thought, as these kind of units are meant to be able to deal with heavy loads when it comes to guns thanks to relentless, How would people feel if these units gain a similar rule or unwieldy CC weapons. Attacking at I3 or 4 will often get them in before or at the same time as GMC/MC (excluding things like Greater Daemons which should just be faster then these units anyway).

Personally I think all the veterans should be ws/bs 5, and yes, having special ammo for Termies could do some work.

Special ammo would help a lot because it fixes the S4 problem.

The issue with Special Ammo is that it steps on the toes of Sternguard. Obviously Deathwatch Terminators should have it but that's a different conversation.

Special ammo and 2 heavy every 5 termies at 35 pts each. AC and ML at 10 pts each, HF at 5 pts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue with Special Ammo is that it steps on the toes of Sternguard. Obviously Deathwatch Terminators should have it but that's a different conversation.

I'm willing to sacrifice the sternguard at this point to prop up an iconic unit.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue with Special Ammo is that it steps on the toes of Sternguard. Obviously Deathwatch Terminators should have it but that's a different conversation.

I'm willing to sacrifice the sternguard at this point to prop up an iconic unit.

Given that Sternguard were created mostly to be proxy rules for the Deathwatch in 5th-6th I'd support an approach that rethought both Sternguard and Terminators along the lines of what actual Space Marine Veterans should be doing instead of lifting another army's gimmick. Going to take a look through the Legion rules and get back to you on specifics.

Actual marine vets will probably be crap because the marine stat line sucks now. The sternguard is really all about the 2+ poison ammo. Without that, they're useless.

Martel732 wrote:
Actual marine vets will probably be crap because the marine stat line sucks now. The sternguard is really all about the 2+ poison ammo. Without that, they're useless.

Speaking as a Deathwatch player the Ignores Cover mode (to turn Ravenwing rerollable 2+ jink back into 3+ armour and mess up cover-camping infantry) and the AP3 mode (when Warp Spiders annoy you) are also pretty useful. And Kraken rounds let you mess with Skitarii and Fire Warriors who thought they were safely out of range.

 Galef wrote:
Actually the best fix for Terminators is to make Terminator armour grant +1 wound in all cases across all armies that have Terminator armour.
You could even include MegaNobs in that.

That's the simplest fix that doesn't require any points tinkering and also fits with their Bulky appearance.

I would go +1T over +1W. You want to increase their survivability from small arms fire. Most AP2 weapons used in game I think are Str8 upwards (no one really likes plasma unless you ignore gets hot (Tau) or have FnP (DG).)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actual marine vets will probably be crap because the marine stat line sucks now. The sternguard is really all about the 2+ poison ammo. Without that, they're useless.

Speaking as a Deathwatch player the Ignores Cover mode (to turn Ravenwing rerollable 2+ jink back into 3+ armour and mess up cover-camping infantry) and the AP3 mode (when Warp Spiders annoy you) are also pretty useful. And Kraken rounds let you mess with Skitarii and Fire Warriors who thought they were safely out of range.

Okay. I get that. At any rate, without the special ammo, sternguard become crap like every other model with a marine stat line.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actual marine vets will probably be crap because the marine stat line sucks now. The sternguard is really all about the 2+ poison ammo. Without that, they're useless.

Speaking as a Deathwatch player the Ignores Cover mode (to turn Ravenwing rerollable 2+ jink back into 3+ armour and mess up cover-camping infantry) and the AP3 mode (when Warp Spiders annoy you) are also pretty useful. And Kraken rounds let you mess with Skitarii and Fire Warriors who thought they were safely out of range.

Okay. I get that. At any rate, without the special ammo, sternguard become crap like every other model with a marine stat line.

This is why I'm hoping to take a walk through the Legion list, where 'Marine statline' != 'crap'.

For that matter I'd prefer to take a look through why 'Marine statline' = 'crap' and see what the problems there are rather than declare that as an absolute and just keep pushing the power creep further.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue with Special Ammo is that it steps on the toes of Sternguard. Obviously Deathwatch Terminators should have it but that's a different conversation.

I'm willing to sacrifice the sternguard at this point to prop up an iconic unit.

And then what? Those models are used as Veterans which have no point to them? No.

Just buff the Storm Bolter itself and more importantly make the Terminator units functional. They don't function as intended.

Loyalist terminators have never worked as intended. Quite the quandry.

Martel732 wrote:
Loyalist terminators have never worked as intended. Quite the quandry.

So look at 30k Terminators. Which do function as intended. By virtue of being cheaper, tougher, having better options, and having variants with all kinds of wacky extra effects.

(Yes, they also exist in an environment where there are no Riptides, superheavies are capped at 25% of your army, and you can't wander around the detachment rules to get a bunch of artillery with no infantry, but look me straight in the eye and tell me you wouldn't use Grave Wardens (40pts/model for the first five, 35pts/model for the next five, Cataphractii armour (4++), power fists, assault grenade launchers packing S6/AP4 krak shells and Ignores Cover Posioned 3+/AP4 blast shells (both at 18" range Assault 2), and a special Poisoned (3+) template usable only in Overwatch (which may be used in Overwatch in defiance of the normal Cataphractii rules)) in 40k if you could.)

Maybe. Even those would be shockingly ineffective vs the usual suspects, though. AP 4 is not very good in 40K.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. Even those would be shockingly ineffective vs the usual suspects, though. AP 4 is not very good in 40K.

...So what do you want from the game? Do all guns need to be AP2 to counteract Riptides? Is there a point at which the 'baseline' needs to get settled somewhere and things need to be toned down to some central point rather than buffing everything to be good against everything?

Is there a point at which the Wraithknight and Riptide are stupid and should be addressed by fixing the stupid units instead of power-creeping the rest of the game up around them until they're normal?

It's not just them. What do these things do to a battle company? Nothing, because AP 4. Meanwhile they're getting reamed by grav cannons.

These are slow units that can't sweep in CC. So they fail vs necrons as well. They can't catch a DA list and again ap 4 means nothing. I'm just not seeing it.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just them. What do these things do to a battle company? Nothing, because AP 4. Meanwhile they're getting reamed by grav cannons.

These are slow units that can't sweep in CC. So they fail vs necrons as well. They can't catch a DA list and again ap 4 means nothing. I'm just not seeing it.

Let me try again.

Your response to any suggestion anyone makes for anything involves explaining that anything short of a Riptide, a Scatterbike, a free Razorback, or a Decurion Wraith is terrible. And that the system as written is insufficiently granular to faithfully represent the variety of units/weapons in the game.

So with that in mind my question is this. Do you want to play a game where Riptide Wings are normal? Do you want the Riptide Wing to remain playable as written and buff everyone else up to its level? Or is it possible that the problem is the Riptide, and that the problem is not every unit in the game that is worse than the Riptide?

I don't have a choice. Wander over to a Tau thread and suggest limiting or nerfing their precious Gundam suits. Mass Riptide/Stormsurge is legal, and therefore the new normal for me.

If it were up to me, everything would get a rewrite from the ground up. In this scenario, terminators can be made to work very well. In this gak show of a system that GW insists on using, I'm not sure how 2+ T4 infantry of any kind is useful ever again.

Martel732 wrote:
Loyalist terminators have never worked as intended. Quite the quandry.

They're supposed to be shock troopers of some kind, either rushed up the field in a Land Raider or Deep Strike.

So we make Land Raiders 50 points cheaper, make Storm Bolters S5, do the Skitarii special weapon system for them, make Lightning Claws Terminators 30 points base and make the TH/SS upgrade back to 5 points.
They don't need a super big revision but they definitely needed something.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't have a choice. Wander over to a Tau thread and suggest limiting or nerfing their precious Gundam suits. Mass Riptide/Stormsurge is legal, and therefore the new normal for me.

If it were up to me, everything would get a rewrite from the ground up. In this scenario, terminators can be made to work very well. In this gak show of a system that GW insists on using, I'm not sure how 2+ T4 infantry of any kind is useful ever again.

...So you're not going to propose actual solutions because people are mean when they disagree with you? And instead you're going to wander around pooing on everyone else's suggestions by dragging us down into this argument constantly?

Have you considered that in wandering around explaining that the Riptide is normal and everything else needs to be designed around it you're taking up the banner of the Tau players and their 'precious Gundam suits'? Are you agreeing with them because they're right, or because you're tired of arguing and want to spread your frustration to everyone else?

They need a pretty big revision, because sweeping the enemy in combat is where most CC damage actually comes from and terminators of all types can't do it.

Land Raiders are their own special kind of dumpster fire. Even at 200 pts, I wouldn't even consider using them. That's how bad they are.

People like to talk about 2nd ed, but in 2nd ed, lascannons and krak missiles were both -6 armor save. That means terminators saved on a 9+ on 2D6. Good luck with that. Eldar spit out dozens of -3 armor save shots a turn. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, your pea shooter storm bolter was -1 armor save and jammed 16% of the time. Good 'ol 2nd ed.

CSM terminators worked because they had blastmasters and reaper autocannons. That's why. No other reason. If terminators don't get upgunned, they fail. Period. 7th ed, the era of dozens of scattlerlasers, just drives this home more.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't have a choice. Wander over to a Tau thread and suggest limiting or nerfing their precious Gundam suits. Mass Riptide/Stormsurge is legal, and therefore the new normal for me.

If it were up to me, everything would get a rewrite from the ground up. In this scenario, terminators can be made to work very well. In this gak show of a system that GW insists on using, I'm not sure how 2+ T4 infantry of any kind is useful ever again.

...So you're not going to propose actual solutions because people are mean when they disagree with you? And instead you're going to wander around pooing on everyone else's suggestions by dragging us down into this argument constantly?

Have you considered that in wandering around explaining that the Riptide is normal and everything else needs to be designed around it you're taking up the banner of the Tau players and their 'precious Gundam suits'? Are you agreeing with them because they're right, or because you're tired of arguing and want to spread your frustration to everyone else?

The internet is not the issue as much as I can't stop the guy from bringing legal models to the table. I have to deal with reality here, not an imagined reality.

I'm poo-pooing most terminator solutions because I don't think they will work. It's a problem with T4 2+ infantry in 7th ed. My sanguinary guard have a lot of the same problems. The solution: never use them.

Martel732 wrote:
...The internet is not the issue as much as I can't stop the guy from bringing legal models to the table. I have to deal with reality here, not an imagined reality...

So go. Leave. Exit the Proposed Rules forum and never return. We're not here for you to tell us our proposed rules are a waste of time because the people you play with won't accept them.

That's not what I meant. By the time you "fix" terminators, and then "fix" riptides, and then add every other underpowered/overpowered unit to the list, it's actually easier to rewrite the whole thing.

The malaise of T4 2+ is a mathematical phenomenon reinforced by many, many aspects of the game.

My play group is only relevant in that I can't pretend that Riptides don't exist exactly as they are.

Again, the actual solution is to trash can the entire rules set and start over. But that's a lot of work, and it not worth it as those rules would never be official.