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So, the idea is that you can fire from any point of the non-vehicle model. If you place the model so that it can trace the line of firing to 2 knight's facings, you can choose from which part of the model you shoot after the shield's facing is decided.

No you are in on side or the other. You would talk with your opponent which facing this person would be shooting in before decided on facing. You couldn´t then choose to fire at the other side.

Anything else and you would be considered a complete dick.

That's not how you determine facing. You shoot at the facing you are standing in, not the one you can see

he is saying that he wants to stand in the middle of 2 facing and choose which one to fire at depending on his opponents choice

In fhe rare event your actually stood on the line between 2 facings, I'd say you hit the closest of the 2 rather than being able to pick.

If you want to shoot the side armour, move to that facing.

The shield facing is determined at the start of the shooting phase. The line of sight is traced from right before making a shooting attack. And you can't decide which armor facing you're...facing until you check line of sight. And you can check it from any point of the model. So, what's exactly prohibiting this?

 koooaei wrote:
The shield facing is determined at the start of the shooting phase. The line of sight is traced from any part of the model. And it'd done right when you're shooting. And you can't decide which armor facing you're...facing until you check line of sight. And you can check it from any point of the model.

First of all again the LoS doesn't not effect the armor facing, its where you model is standing that matters

But lets assume that the model is standing on the line between two armor facings. The rules don't cover this situation so there is nothing to support your stance that you get to choose the facing at the time of shooting.

Can you show with rules support why you are the player that gets to pick the facing the shooting attack is resolved against instead of your opponent choosing which facing gets picked?

 koooaei wrote:
So, what's exactly prohibiting this?

The fact that facing is determined by which section the model is physically located in, not where LOS is drawn. Before committing to where the shield is I would check which arc the model is located in (and would not proceed until we agree on where it is) and then pick that facing. Unless you can move the model to a new location after the shield is placed you're shooting at the shield.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The shield facing is determined at the start of the shooting phase. The line of sight is traced from any part of the model. And it'd done right when you're shooting. And you can't decide which armor facing you're...facing until you check line of sight. And you can check it from any point of the model.

First of all again the LoS doesn't not effect the armor facing, its where you model is standing that matters

But lets assume that the model is standing on the line between two armor facings. The rules don't cover this situation so there is nothing to support your stance that you get to choose the facing at the time of shooting.

Can you show with rules support why you are the player that gets to pick the facing the shooting attack is resolved against instead of your opponent choosing which facing gets picked?

That's what i'm talking about. So, at least we've decided that you have to stand at the exact center to achieve this situation. Imagine you do stand there. Do you roll a dice?

 CrownAxe wrote:
But lets assume that the model is standing on the line between two armor facings. The rules don't cover this situation so there is nothing to support your stance that you get to choose the facing at the time of shooting.

Can you show with rules support why you are the player that gets to pick the facing the shooting attack is resolved against instead of your opponent choosing which facing gets picked?

Or, third option: a single facing must be chosen, based on which side of the line 51% of the model is located on (or a similar test). And, like any other information about a model's location, this can be checked at any time, including before the shield is committed.

 Peregrine wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, what's exactly prohibiting this?

The fact that facing is determined by which section the model is physically located in, not where LOS is drawn. Before committing to where the shield is I would check which arc the model is located in (and would not proceed until we agree on where it is) and then pick that facing. Unless you can move the model to a new location after the shield is placed you're shooting at the shield.

There's nothing saying that it should be decided in the movement phase. It's decided right before shooting.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
But lets assume that the model is standing on the line between two armor facings. The rules don't cover this situation so there is nothing to support your stance that you get to choose the facing at the time of shooting.

Can you show with rules support why you are the player that gets to pick the facing the shooting attack is resolved against instead of your opponent choosing which facing gets picked?

Or, third option: a single facing must be chosen, based on which side of the line 51% of the model is located on (or a similar test). And, like any other information about a model's location, this can be checked at any time, including before the shield is committed.

And if the person placing the model is purposefully measuring it to be exactly in the middle? Do you bring a microscope?

 koooaei wrote:


...That's what i'm talking about. So, at least we've decided that you have to stand at the exact center to achieve this situation. Imagine you do stand there. Do you roll a dice?

There is no rules solution for this because the rule do not cover this at all. But there is definitely no precedent for the shooting player getting to pick the facing instead of their opponent choosing

You just have to come to an agreement with you opponent (which probably means yes you roll a die)

 koooaei wrote:
There's nothing saying that it should be decided in the movement phase. It's decided right before shooting.

Nope. The position of a model on the table is public information. You can measure range, check LOS, etc, at any time. If I want to know where a model is located relative to the dividing line between armor facings I can draw a line on the table and find out at any time, including immediately before committing the shield. The only way you would be able to change which facing you're shooting at would be to somehow move the model (various "run then shoot" abilities, etc) after the shield is committed.

And if the person placing the model is purposefully measuring it to be exactly in the middle? Do you bring a microscope?

There is no such thing as "exactly in the middle". The situation would be handled exactly like any other case of a model being right on the edge of a distance (measuring range for shooting, etc): either measure more carefully until both players are satisfied with the answer, or roll off to see which side of the line it's on. This would be done the first time the measurement is done (which, again, can be checked at any time) and the answer would stand until one or both of the relevant models moves. So yes, if it's genuinely impossible to tell which side of the line has more of the model you would 4+ it, but I could make you 4+ it and know the answer before I commit the shield.

The opponent will ask which side you as the firer believe the model is in. He will then choose that side.

I personally would say that you would hit the closest part of the model which in your picture would be the side armour.

 rawne2510 wrote:
The opponent will ask which side you as the firer believe the model is in. He will then choose that side.

I personally would say that you would hit the closest part of the model which in your picture would be the side armour.

There's something wrong with this "closest" thing.




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Sure, it's not 100% precise but you get the idea. The model can be 'facing' one arc while being closer to another. Simply cause arcs are not decided by shape of the model but by it's...facings.

 koooaei wrote:
Sure, it's not 100% precise but you get the idea. The model can be 'facing' one arc while being closer to another.

But that isn't the question. Obviously you don't use the "closest point" test if a model is clearly in one arc like in your picture above. It's a method for resolving the "exactly on the line" case like in your first example, where it isn't possible to tell which single facing the model is in. Since, in that example, the front part of the base is slightly closer to the firing model than the side part you would rule that the model is in the target's front facing. Obviously it isn't RAW, but it's arguably better than a random 50/50 roll for handling a situation that RAW doesn't cover.

The closest option would only take effect when there is no clear ability to determine facing. The rules are specific that you would be hitting rear armour there. when the 2 players can´t determine this then it seems fair that you would target closest part of model.

The same goes for rules that are effected by range. A melta gun might be within 6" as you have shown there but over 6" to hit the rear armour. So would you get the extra dice for Armour pen or not?


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 Peregrine wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Sure, it's not 100% precise but you get the idea. The model can be 'facing' one arc while being closer to another.

But that isn't the question. Obviously you don't use the "closest point" test if a model is clearly in one arc like in your picture above. It's a method for resolving the "exactly on the line" case like in your first example, where it isn't possible to tell which single facing the model is in. Since, in that example, the front part of the base is slightly closer to the firing model than the side part you would rule that the model is in the target's front facing. Obviously it isn't RAW, but it's arguably better than a random 50/50 roll for handling a situation that RAW doesn't cover.

You also have to determine when do you make this roll as it effects the decision of the owner of the Knight. I would expect you to roll before I make my decision but I am sure the OP would say only when he chooses to fire which would be after the decision of shield facing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Sure, it's not 100% precise but you get the idea. The model can be 'facing' one arc while being closer to another.

But that isn't the question. Obviously you don't use the "closest point" test if a model is clearly in one arc like in your picture above. It's a method for resolving the "exactly on the line" case like in your first example, where it isn't possible to tell which single facing the model is in. Since, in that example, the front part of the base is slightly closer to the firing model than the side part you would rule that the model is in the target's front facing. Obviously it isn't RAW, but it's arguably better than a random 50/50 roll for handling a situation that RAW doesn't cover.

Can't really go for determined as things like cover can affect the outcome greatly. 50/50 seems the only viable solution. Now the problem is when should it be determined.


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 rawne2510 wrote:

You also have to determine when do you make this roll as it effects the decision of the owner of the Knight. I would expect you to roll before I make my decision but I am sure the OP would say only when he chooses to fire which would be after the decision of shield facing.

Why are you so sure?

If cover is a factor then it doesn´t matter as you would put the shield on the side that isn´t in cover.

If there is an issue with determining which facing a model is in it should always be before facing is decided. It makes no difference to the shooter but a huge difference to the target. The target has to know which facing each possible shooter is in before he makes that determination.

Why is there even an issue here? Just move to one facing, the Knight player declares the shield on that facing, then Battle Focus into a different facing and shoot.

.....What? You guys don't have Battle Focus?
Well then.



Trolling aside, I think the order of operation is correct that you must decide which facing the unit is in before the Knight declares the shield. If the unit is a single model then when it goes to fire, it will still be in that facing. LoS, closet point, etc should not matter.

Do we still resolve different models in different facings, or am I remembering a older edition?

-

You resolve each model against it respective facing.

 rawne2510 wrote:
You resolve each model against it respective facing.

That's what I thought. So what if you have a 3 model unit and measure methodically so that each model is equidistant to the Knight and the center models is exactly center of the divide of facings?

In any case, I feel like you would have to still decide which facing that model would be firing in prior to declaring the Ion shield

 koooaei wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
The opponent will ask which side you as the firer believe the model is in. He will then choose that side.

I personally would say that you would hit the closest part of the model which in your picture would be the side armour.

There's something wrong with this "closest" thing.

As pointed out above, there's nothing wrong with using "closest side" in a situation where a model is equally in both facings like in your first example, but in this example that model is 100% in the front arc, so why would you even get to the question of "Which facing do I use?"

I think he was trying to be smart by saying my theory was bollocks because it doesn´t work in his picture


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a feeling he is the sort of person that doesn´t stack rules in their order of use and would argue blue in the face that a unit in combat couldn´t attack a model in a challenge as they have no models to hit solely because of the outside forces rule

 rawne2510 wrote:
I think he was trying to be smart by saying my theory was bollocks because it doesn´t work in his picture

That was my thought as well, but then like... why try to argue it in a way that makes the whole question moot? So I was forced to assume he didn't know he had put the model entirely in one arc. Or that he legitimately believes he could use the reasoning on how to determine which facing a model is in when it's perfectly on the middle line of two facings to make the claim he can fire at side armor while clearly in the front arc.

 koooaei wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, what's exactly prohibiting this?

The fact that facing is determined by which section the model is physically located in, not where LOS is drawn. Before committing to where the shield is I would check which arc the model is located in (and would not proceed until we agree on where it is) and then pick that facing. Unless you can move the model to a new location after the shield is placed you're shooting at the shield.

There's nothing saying that it should be decided in the movement phase. It's decided right before shooting.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
But lets assume that the model is standing on the line between two armor facings. The rules don't cover this situation so there is nothing to support your stance that you get to choose the facing at the time of shooting.

Can you show with rules support why you are the player that gets to pick the facing the shooting attack is resolved against instead of your opponent choosing which facing gets picked?

Or, third option: a single facing must be chosen, based on which side of the line 51% of the model is located on (or a similar test). And, like any other information about a model's location, this can be checked at any time, including before the shield is committed.

And if the person placing the model is purposefully measuring it to be exactly in the middle? Do you bring a microscope?

He should get to know what facing you think he's in before having to declare in the shooting phase (the two of you should agree on the facing). As pointed out, LoS can be drawn at any time, and as part of drawing that he should be able to know what quadrant of the knight's going to be hit. If you want to go the route of saying "just pick a side, I'll tell you later", then don't be surprised if your opponent says "I pick the side you declare you're able to hit" and you should just accept it

 koooaei wrote:
So, the idea is that you can fire from any point of the non-vehicle model. If you place the model so that it can trace the line of firing to 2 knight's facings, you can choose from which part of the model you shoot after the shield's facing is decided.

This is correct.

Fragile wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, the idea is that you can fire from any point of the non-vehicle model. If you place the model so that it can trace the line of firing to 2 knight's facings, you can choose from which part of the model you shoot after the shield's facing is decided.

This is correct.

Are you saying that when your opponent says which facing is that model in you are going to lie. You would have to determine before he chooses shield side which side it is in. It can't be in both.

 rawne2510 wrote:

I have a feeling he is the sort of person that doesn´t stack rules in their order of use and would argue blue in the face that a unit in combat couldn´t attack a model in a challenge as they have no models to hit solely because of the outside forces rule

I don't even have anything in my ork list to hurt a knight at range other than a couple rokkits on trukks who'd not even bother with shooting over turboboosting. So pls quit assuming other people have certain qualities you'd want to see in them. This question is very important for other cases, for example for when you're trying to decide cover saves. Where do you check the line of firing from? Your model can stand behind a fence and shoot at something far away. It sees the target without any obscurity at all if you check from one part of the model but than you could check from another part of the model and it's definitely shooting through terrain that obscures the target and grants cover. That's what confuses me. Knight + ion shield is just one example of this question.

The picture was to visually represent that 'the closest side' concept doesn't work within the current ruleset.


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 doctortom wrote:

He should get to know what facing you think he's in before having to declare in the shooting phase (the two of you should agree on the facing). As pointed out, LoS can be drawn at any time, and as part of drawing that he should be able to know what quadrant of the knight's going to be hit. If you want to go the route of saying "just pick a side, I'll tell you later", then don't be surprised if your opponent says "I pick the side you declare you're able to hit" and you should just accept it

LoS can be drawn from ANY part of the model. But i guess there's an assumption in this thread that Line of Sight =/= Line of shooting. Which is also arguable.

Do as you wish. Don´t be surprised if you try to pull that crap in a tournament that a TO gets called over every time for a ruling.

You talk to your opponent and agree the facing before they have to choose their shield. Other effects will be taken into account such as where other threats are and if a model gets cover from certain angles.

You must be the only ork player I haven´t seen take Lootas then.