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Something I've been wondering for awhile, I know the rules for both but can't really understand the tactical application of Tartaros over Cataphractii in any situation?

You dont see the advantage of being able to sweeping advance?

And being able to Run, too?

so, normally I'd consider Cataphractii a bit better (2+4++ FOR DAYS) but Tartaros has it's uses. As Victor pointed out, being able to sweep is awesome, as well: Imperial fists like Tartaros since it can take stormshields as well, Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, and other similar "fast attack" legions like tartaros for fluff and legion rules. As well, some may like the aesthetics of tartaros more than cataphractii. That's part of what makes 30k great: even the "sub-optimal" wargear are still decent ;P

Terminators with shorter-ranged weapons (Deathshrouds, for instance) appreciate being able to Run, certainly.

I guess that I personally don't place much stock in running or sweeping advance when it comes to Termies. I have my Terminators embarked in a vehicle and would only ever disembark if I was certain I was going to get the charge. As for sweeping advance, I expect my Terminators to destroy whatever they meet in combat meaning there is no reason to perform a sweeping advance, what does get away is usually too broken to be a hindrance again and can be taken care of in other ways. While I recognize that there are undoubtedly going to be moments where I kick myself and wish I had the ability to sweeping advance or run, I'm having a hard time convincing myself that Tartaros is comparable to a catphractii's 4++. Which is a shame because even though I don't like the Tartaros models, I like being able to have variety in my lists. By not liking the models or the rules, I can't see myself buying them unfortunately.

TBH you probably wont change your mind till a unit of tartaros win combat with your cata and then sweeping advance the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And talking about transports, Tartaros excell as transported cc squads.

 King Amroth wrote:
TBH you probably wont change your mind till a unit of tartaros win combat with your cata and then sweeping advance the unit.


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And talking about transports, Tartaros excell as transported cc squads.

I'm sure that will be the case Yeah, in a transport I'm sure they have an excellent threat radius, but I just know I'll grimace inside every single time I roll a 4 on their invulnerable save because I'll just think "cataphractii would be alive right now."

If you are throwing them in a spartan, Tartaros for days, especially with a Primarch or what have you.

Small Cataphractii squads are decent for objectives, but at the end of the day you are trading the ability to sweep and run for a 16% more chance to survive.

It also depends on the Terminators. If you are talking the generic Terminator Squad elite choice, then their are just too many advantages for the Tartaros. For the specialized Terminator units, things are different. As a Sons of Horus player, I love my Justarian Terminators in Cataphractii as they have two wounds and are a fantastic tanking unit.

I think I might use tartaros for dual LC terminators when running and sweeping advance is more important because you're targeting MEQ and the 5++ isn't a big deal because most MEQ aren't toting AP2 weapons anyway. What vehicle would they best fulfill this role in?

 Tamwulf wrote:
It also depends on the Terminators. If you are talking the generic Terminator Squad elite choice, then their are just too many advantages for the Tartaros. For the specialized Terminator units, things are different. As a Sons of Horus player, I love my Justarian Terminators in Cataphractii as they have two wounds and are a fantastic tanking unit.

Similarly if you're playing The Reaping you've taken away a bunch of the upsides of Tartaros (since you can't Run from the Rite and you've got a penalty to Sweep from playing Death Guard) so you might as well take Cataphractii. And over here in Salamanders our Storm Shields are +1 to existing Invulnerable saves rather than a fixed 3++ like the Imperial Fists', so we need Cataphractii armour to get to 3++ at all (on top of no Initiative to Sweep and -1" to run moves).

But if you're playing Emperor's Children, for instance, where you've got Crusader, you're wasting a chunk of your Legion rules if you run Cataphractii over Tartaros on anyone. Or you could be trying to make use of the extra penalty to Ld for enemies losing combat to your units in the Day of Sorrows.

Or you could be playing a Legion were there isn't really a great reason to use Terminators in the first place at the moment (Night Lords, White Scars...), and the whole question could be moot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Or you could be playing a Legion were there isn't really a great reason to use Terminators in the first place at the moment Night Lords and the whole question could be moot.

You mean the Legion with the rule A Talent For Murder? You know, the one where bulky equals 2 Models for the purpose of outnumbering the enemy and hitting and wounding them easier? And Teleporter Homers for Terminator Squads? Sure you could just take Assault Marines or Night Raptors, but Terminators can do the job just as well.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Or you could be playing a Legion were there isn't really a great reason to use Terminators in the first place at the moment Night Lords and the whole question could be moot.

You mean the Legion with the rule A Talent For Murder? You know, the one where bulky equals 2 Models for the purpose of outnumbering the enemy and hitting and wounding them easier? And Teleporter Homers for Terminator Squads? Sure you could just take Assault Marines or Night Raptors, but Terminators can do the job just as well.

I will acknowledge that I neither play or have played against Night Lords, so this is mostly run on theory (also after years of trying to make it work I tend to take a very dim view of armies that try to Deep Strike with Terminators without some kind of reliable/turn-one Reserves interaction), but between the Night Fighting tricks, the self-propelled delivery system, the ability to outnumber 20-man blob squads, and the drastically lower price tag it looks to me like Assault/Night Raptor squads do everything you'd want Terminators for, only better.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Or you could be playing a Legion were there isn't really a great reason to use Terminators in the first place at the moment Night Lords and the whole question could be moot.

You mean the Legion with the rule A Talent For Murder? You know, the one where bulky equals 2 Models for the purpose of outnumbering the enemy and hitting and wounding them easier? And Teleporter Homers for Terminator Squads? Sure you could just take Assault Marines or Night Raptors, but Terminators can do the job just as well.

I will acknowledge that I neither play or have played against Night Lords, so this is mostly run on theory (also after years of trying to make it work I tend to take a very dim view of armies that try to Deep Strike with Terminators without some kind of reliable/turn-one Reserves interaction), but between the Night Fighting tricks, the self-propelled delivery system, the ability to outnumber 20-man blob squads, and the drastically lower price tag it looks to me like Assault/Night Raptor squads do everything you'd want Terminators for, only better.

Generally, Night Raptors are considered fragile and overpriced. Assault Squads are great, but they do well with Terminators too. They get the Teleportation Transponder and being able to run after Deep Striking in really does keep pie plates from nuking your squad.

Imperial fists like Tartaros since it can take stormshields as well,

Not in the current wording they can't. It would have to be house-ruled to be allowed, but I am in the camp that thinks FW didn't want 2+/3++ Sweeping Terminators, so it wasn't allowed on purpose.


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Cassor the Damned wrote:
I think I might use tartaros for dual LC terminators when running and sweeping advance is more important because you're targeting MEQ and the 5++ isn't a big deal because most MEQ aren't toting AP2 weapons anyway. What vehicle would they best fulfill this role in?

Spartan
Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield, Dozer Blade
[375]

Night Fighting is only somewhat reliable for you in the Terror Assault RoW or if you take the Night Haunter. A ten man terminator squad with Volktie (expensive yes) will have the same number of models as the 20 Man blob for the purpose of their rules and have a good chance to out number them after shooting. Even just 5 temies wouldn't be bad depending on what you throw them at. But that would be expensive, even though Night Raptors are also expensive. One thing I'd say Termies can do better is survive with the 2+/5++ or 4++

And just cause those squads could do it better, doesn't make Terminators irrelevant in the Night Lords, they have uses.

Also Sevatar is a teleporter beacon for deepstriking terminators, so one more thing in their rules supporting the idea of using them.

So i think there are plenty of good reasons to use terminators, probably not the best reasons but still.

In the face of determined opposition I shall drop Night Lords from my list of Legions that don't care much about Terminators.

...Come to think of it that leaves the Book 6 Legions as the only ones still on that list, and they're likely to come off it as soon as the proto-Deathwing, Keshig, and whatever other cool things are going to show up get proper rules. In the grim darkness of the distant past of the far future, there are only Terminators.

Never and always, respectively.


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 Brennonjw wrote:
so, normally I'd consider Cataphractii a bit better (2+4++ FOR DAYS) but Tartaros has it's uses. As Victor pointed out, being able to sweep is awesome, as well: Imperial fists like Tartaros since it can take stormshields as well

Tartaros does not have the option for storm shields, only Cataphract and Indomitus.

HandofMars wrote:
Never and always, respectively.


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 Brennonjw wrote:
so, normally I'd consider Cataphractii a bit better (2+4++ FOR DAYS) but Tartaros has it's uses. As Victor pointed out, being able to sweep is awesome, as well: Imperial fists like Tartaros since it can take stormshields as well

Tartaros does not have the option for storm shields, only Cataphract and Indomitus.

Yup, was talking about that on another post. I still stand by waiting to see what FW says, since it specifies Cataphractii as cheaper to bring one (since they already have a 4++) and that it was more expensive of "standard" terminator armour. the problem is that FW has never clarified what "standard" terminator armour was in 30k. Point in case, they say units that just list "terminator armour" can be any kind, so long as it's modeled (for example: death shroud terminators)

Sort of tangental to the Night Lords discussion:

I built my Ultramarine capheracti terminators all with lightning claws. I think of them as my “I can’t believe they’re not Night Lords” terminators. Just a brutal looking bunch of guys. Took all my willpower not to put little lightning bolts all up and down the dark blue armor.

Tarteros termis just lack that menace.

Im afraid when it comes to the Imperial fists, shields on tartarus deabate i have to come down on the side of they can. there is no such thing as standard termie armour so i have always played it and seen it played as giving them to tartarus is fine as that is the only "standard" terminator armour for the time period.

 King Amroth wrote:
Im afraid when it comes to the Imperial fists, shields on tartarus deabate i have to come down on the side of they can. there is no such thing as standard termie armour so i have always played it and seen it played as giving them to tartarus is fine as that is the only "standard" terminator armour for the time period.

Standard is Indomitus, so your normal GW box of terminators. Tartaros and Cataphractii have unique rules. Until they FAQ it, RAW no Vigil for Tartaros.

I just have been thinking buildin cheapish, money-wise, Alpha Legion army with Pride of Legion RoW and I think I'm going to use mostly Tartarus for it. Infiltrating termies that can run? Yes please!

I just have been thinking buildin cheapish, money-wise, Alpha Legion army with Pride of Legion RoW and I think I'm going to use mostly Tartarus for it. Infiltrating termies that can run? Yes please!

Yeah, I went with Tartaros terminators for my AL too. It just seems like the right choice both mechanically and it just feels right for the legion to have the newest/nicest stuff (they were among the first to get Mk VI beakie armour for example).

Which is actually my answer to the originally question - which terminator armour do you use? The one that fits your legion the best. Except Indomitus, I don't see any reason to have that aside from having leftover termies from a 40k army.

Personally, I think Indomitus armour simply looks better than the other two (with a few exceptions; Phoenix Terminators are rather good, for example). That's reason enough to use 'em.

It does depend heavily on your legion. Salamanders for example suffer heavy penalties to sweeping, so you may as well take the greater durability and even give them shields to take it up to 3++

 Brennonjw wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Never and always, respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, normally I'd consider Cataphractii a bit better (2+4++ FOR DAYS) but Tartaros has it's uses. As Victor pointed out, being able to sweep is awesome, as well: Imperial fists like Tartaros since it can take stormshields as well

Tartaros does not have the option for storm shields, only Cataphract and Indomitus.

Yup, was talking about that on another post. I still stand by waiting to see what FW says, since it specifies Cataphractii as cheaper to bring one (since they already have a 4++) and that it was more expensive of "standard" terminator armour. the problem is that FW has never clarified what "standard" terminator armour was in 30k. Point in case, they say units that just list "terminator armour" can be any kind, so long as it's modeled (for example: death shroud terminators)

Standard terminator armor is Indomitus. The new Astartes book does indeed define three distinct terminator armor types, "Regular", "Tartaros", and "Cataphract". Non-standard terminator armor is also addressed by the rules. There is no ambiguity here.

I am not sure your example is incorrect, the model infers the rules you use, not the other way around. I don't think you can kitbash together a Cataphractii version of Death Shroud, since the official models are in Tartaros. It would be neat if you could, though, so you can run them with Typhon.

 snykyninja wrote:
It does depend heavily on your legion. Salamanders for example suffer heavy penalties to sweeping, so you may as well take the greater durability and even give them shields to take it up to 3++

Firedrakes are disgusting! 2W and a 2+/3++ with Hammers and Chainfists. Grossssssssss!

Too bad they are like the worst (or second worst) Legion ever.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
It does depend heavily on your legion. Salamanders for example suffer heavy penalties to sweeping, so you may as well take the greater durability and even give them shields to take it up to 3++

Firedrakes are disgusting! 2W and a 2+/3++ with Hammers and Chainfists. Grossssssssss!

Too bad they are like the worst (or second worst) Legion ever.

Two Wounds with hammers/fists and shields, yes. Also 62.5pts/model at a full squad with that loadout (70pts/model for a minimum squad). They're good, but they're way too expensive to be 'disgusting'.

(That said an Imperial Fists squad with the same loadout (who don't have WS5 or two Wounds) are 52.5pts/model for a full squad (55pts/model for a minimum squad), so they are more cost-effective than the only strictly comparable unit around...)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
It does depend heavily on your legion. Salamanders for example suffer heavy penalties to sweeping, so you may as well take the greater durability and even give them shields to take it up to 3++

Firedrakes are disgusting! 2W and a 2+/3++ with Hammers and Chainfists. Grossssssssss!

Too bad they are like the worst (or second worst) Legion ever.

Two Wounds with hammers/fists and shields, yes. Also 62.5pts/model at a full squad with that loadout (70pts/model for a minimum squad). They're good, but they're way too expensive to be 'disgusting'.

(That said an Imperial Fists squad with the same loadout (who don't have WS5 or two Wounds) are 52.5pts/model for a full squad (55pts/model for a minimum squad), so they are more cost-effective than the only strictly comparable unit around...)

They are still disgusting, just overpriced. Those are not mutually exclusive, imo. And you can get them down to about 60pp if you don't go overboard with upgrades. Not everyone needs a Thunder Hammer or Storm Shield, really. Still pricey.

Red Butchers are usually around 58ppm and they don't have 3++, just a 6+ FNP and are generally considered a decent unit (not crazy good, but decent). That is a more comparable unit as a 2W Terminator squad and it seems about the same.

I think FW makes you pay for the luxury of that second wound.