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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

No guaranteed way... Because poison doesn't work? Sure, that's a problem if you're Deathwatch, Dark Eldar, or maybe certain Nurgle builds, but most of the armies in the game don't even HAVE very much poisoned. And yeah, the Wraithknight is really tough, but it's only got 6 wounds with a 3+ save, which is not that hard to get through. (It MIGHT have a 5+ invuln, but that's a very large 'Might'.) Yeah, it's undercosted, but you're acting like it's totally unstoppable, which - for many armies - it absolutely isn't.

The Wraithknight is W6 3+/optional 5++ which you are taking/5+++. Forgot about that last bit didn't ya?

Uh, no? I didn't? Because I mention that the Wraithknight might have a 5++? And no, I didn't explicitly mention the FNP, but that's because I was specifically listing its weaknesses, not generalities about GMCs. The Wraithknight has low wounds for a GMC and a mediocre armor save, with an equally mediocre invuln. That was my point.

It absolutely is not low wounds for being T8 and being immune to Poison for all intents and purposes on top of the FNP. You know how many Space Marine Lascannons it takes to kill it? 21 shots. You want to include the 5++ it is going to have? 27.

That is including Grav shots too because they're wounding it on the same number.

Yeah, but Lascannons suck. That's pretty much universally agreed on. That's a whole other problem that doesn't really matter right here, but yeah, there it is: You're comparing a really terrible weapon to an above-average enemy.
21 Grav shots is not hard to get. A single squad of Devestators can get 23 if their sergeant takes a Grav cannon. Heck, a squad of Gravcannon Devestators with Devestator Doctrine or Prescience kicked in will put 10 wounds on a Wraithknight or 7 on a Wraithknight with an invuln. Yes, most armies don't have Grav, but that's still a fairly common counter.

If you assault a WK in close combat with an actual CC-dedicated unit, chances are you're going to obliterate it. Sure, it hits fast and with high strength (Or D,) but it only has four attacks and WS4, so it's not going to be all that impossible to take down. A PK Warboss on a bike and 5 Bully Boyz will kill a Wraithknight in close combat, even if it has an invuln. (The Warboss is just there to tank damage. If it has the D CCW, just taking more Meganobz is probably the better route. Or just swarm it with Boyz and don't worry about killing it.)
6 Wulfen with a TH/SS combo will also beat a Wraithknight pretty easily, and there are many-a psychic power that will put a huge chunk in one without too much difficulty.


My point is not that Wraithknights are underpowered, but that your complaints are overdone: It's strong, but you're making it out to be nigh unbeatable.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I know this does nothing from a rules perspective, but it's different from a Dreadnought, for instance, where there's a sarcophogus plugged in. The separation from pilot and machine is what differentiates the kind of damage it takes.

Who's piloting a haemotrope reactor?

Martel732 wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Also MC has easier access to cover and or invuln saves than vehicles. They can just be near a tree or behind some infantry for instant 5+, whereas vehicles have to be 25% to get the same benefits.

As per the FAQ, MCs need 25% as well now. Small victories.

I've said it before, and being slightly vulnerable to small arms is actually a benefit, as it encourages your opponent to be dumb. 27 BS 4 bolter shots to clear a single wound vs T6 3+? Go for it!

Here, I need to disagree.

Whilst you're spot on about the probability to reliably drop that final wound, it still stands that a single Bolt Pistol can take the last wound off say, a Hive Tyrant, but not be able to finish off an ailing Landraider.

The chances might be quite small, but that they exist means that cheeky bolt pistol, perhaps from the last member of a squad, can have a big affect on the battle. And when it comes to probability, we're simply not going to chuck enough dice in a lifetime of gaming to really tickle it So I'll take that risk!

Once you factor in Sods Law, it becomes apparent such desultory fire is typically far more deadly than it has any right to be.

There's that false hope I'm referring to. Go ahead. Waste your fire trying to be the hero.

"it still stands that a single Bolt Pistol can take the last wound off say, a Hive Tyrant, but not be able to finish off an ailing Landraider. "

Yes, and that encourages bad decision making. Like the lottery. Or Vegas.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

No guaranteed way... Because poison doesn't work? Sure, that's a problem if you're Deathwatch, Dark Eldar, or maybe certain Nurgle builds, but most of the armies in the game don't even HAVE very much poisoned. And yeah, the Wraithknight is really tough, but it's only got 6 wounds with a 3+ save, which is not that hard to get through. (It MIGHT have a 5+ invuln, but that's a very large 'Might'.) Yeah, it's undercosted, but you're acting like it's totally unstoppable, which - for many armies - it absolutely isn't.

The Wraithknight is W6 3+/optional 5++ which you are taking/5+++. Forgot about that last bit didn't ya?

Uh, no? I didn't? Because I mention that the Wraithknight might have a 5++? And no, I didn't explicitly mention the FNP, but that's because I was specifically listing its weaknesses, not generalities about GMCs. The Wraithknight has low wounds for a GMC and a mediocre armor save, with an equally mediocre invuln. That was my point.

It absolutely is not low wounds for being T8 and being immune to Poison for all intents and purposes on top of the FNP. You know how many Space Marine Lascannons it takes to kill it? 21 shots. You want to include the 5++ it is going to have? 27.

That is including Grav shots too because they're wounding it on the same number.

Yeah, but Lascannons suck. That's pretty much universally agreed on. That's a whole other problem that doesn't really matter right here, but yeah, there it is: You're comparing a really terrible weapon to an above-average enemy.
21 Grav shots is not hard to get. A single squad of Devestators can get 23 if their sergeant takes a Grav cannon. Heck, a squad of Gravcannon Devestators with Devestator Doctrine or Prescience kicked in will put 10 wounds on a Wraithknight or 7 on a Wraithknight with an invuln. Yes, most armies don't have Grav, but that's still a fairly common counter.

If you assault a WK in close combat with an actual CC-dedicated unit, chances are you're going to obliterate it. Sure, it hits fast and with high strength (Or D,) but it only has four attacks and WS4, so it's not going to be all that impossible to take down. A PK Warboss on a bike and 5 Bully Boyz will kill a Wraithknight in close combat, even if it has an invuln. (The Warboss is just there to tank damage. If it has the D CCW, just taking more Meganobz is probably the better route. Or just swarm it with Boyz and don't worry about killing it.)
6 Wulfen with a TH/SS combo will also beat a Wraithknight pretty easily, and there are many-a psychic power that will put a huge chunk in one without too much difficulty.


My point is not that Wraithknights are underpowered, but that your complaints are overdone: It's strong, but you're making it out to be nigh unbeatable.

Pretty much all Imperial heavy weapons suck then. That's not a common counter if most armies lack it. Even then, youre mot considering other armies that cannot get access to it (what reliable means do Skitarii and CSM have? Essentially very little that is actually reliable). Eldar are the only ones that can reliably deal with it because they're special snowflakes that get D Weapons out of the wazoo.

Pretty sure your math is wrong on the Bully Boyz and a Warboss doing anything reliably. The Wraithknight can more reliably get the charge, and that's going to be 2 dead right there, with an average of over one dead per turn. That's not including stomps.
Wulfen are obviously a completely different story as they're hardly balanced themselves. Still better balanced than a Wraithknight though.

Many a Psyker power? You mean Shriek and almost nothing else?

Nothing is nigh unbeatable, but you're the one defending the Wraithknight as though we should get over how stupidly powerful it is.

I dunno about Skitarii, because I rarely play against them.
CSM can tie it down in Melee forever using fearless Cultists or zombies.
As for the Bully Boyz, my math is just fine. The boss is on a bike and the Meganobz are in a trukk, so the WK charging is by no means a given. Unless he took the D CCW, the Warboss will tank both wounds since the Ork player gets to allocate. Then, the Bully Boyz inflict 5 wounds, and the Warboss inflicts 1 more.

And yeah, Stomps will cause more damage if the WK rolls a 6, but by that point he's already dead.


Many a Psychic Power, yes. Enfeeble can combo with other things to kick him in the teeth. There's the sanctic D weapon, or the Tzeentchy D weapon. The Divination Malediction that gives everyone Rending.
And yeah, Psychic Shriek, because it's a Primaris Power that almost every army can take automatically.

Non-grav imperial heavy weapons do suck. That's why imperial lists rely on death stars and other gimmicks.

The WK is much too difficult to deal with for a 295 pt model. Period. Being a GMC instead of walker is fine. Just pay for it.

A PK Warboss on a bike and 5 Bully Boyz will kill a Wraithknight in close combat, even if it has an invuln. (The Warboss is just there to tank damage. If it has the D CCW, just taking more Meganobz is probably the better route. Or just swarm it with Boyz and don't worry about killing it.)

PK Warboss on a Bike = 110pts 5 MegaNobz = 200pts total = 310pts
Wraithknight is 295pts

To get the Warboss on Bike into CC isn't that hard because the speed of bikes teamed with Jink means he has a good shot of getting their, of course the Meganobz...not so much, they need a Trukk MINIMUM to get into CC, so thats another 35pts (Ram). So lets say that the ork player saturates the field with targets and the Eldar player is unable to shoot an AV10 vehicle to death for whatever reason and the Nobz get the charge off joined by the warboss on a bike.

Overwatch the WK has a 1/3rd chance to disintegrate one of the Meganobz. So lets say they miss because thats likely and they all get into B2B.

Wraithknight swings at I5 and has 2 hits and 2 dead Meganobz or 2 wounds off the Warboss (T6)

5 Meganobz = 20 attacks on the charge at S9. so 10 hits and 7wounds. The warboss swings and has 5 attacks 2-3 hit and 1-2 more wounds. Total? 8-9wounds. If its the model without the 5++ that is 5-6wounds, so probably a dead WK. It gets to stomp and will reliably kill the rest of the Nobz/Warboss no problem. So HOORAY! Orks spent 345pts to kill a 295pt model. they have a 35pt trukk left thats it.

Now if the WK has a Scattershield then those 9 wounds become 6 and those 6 wounds become 4 (5++ and 5+++) So now the Orks have wasted all of those points and achieved nothing but most of the wounds off a WK.

NOW if the WK had the Glaive as well as the shield you just lost even worse because the Warboss can't tank Strength D. Since the weapon is Master Crafted he will more likely hit times which means 3 Dead Mega Nobz. So on the ork turn instead of 20 S9 attacks its 8 S9 attacks. which means 4 hits and 3ish wounds. Teamed with the warboss not nearly enough.

The sword and board WK is extremely difficult to handle in CC. As one might imagine.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I dunno about Skitarii, because I rarely play against them.
CSM can tie it down in Melee forever using fearless Cultists or zombies.
As for the Bully Boyz, my math is just fine. The boss is on a bike and the Meganobz are in a trukk, so the WK charging is by no means a given. Unless he took the D CCW, the Warboss will tank both wounds since the Ork player gets to allocate. Then, the Bully Boyz inflict 5 wounds, and the Warboss inflicts 1 more.

And yeah, Stomps will cause more damage if the WK rolls a 6, but by that point he's already dead.


Many a Psychic Power, yes. Enfeeble can combo with other things to kick him in the teeth. There's the sanctic D weapon, or the Tzeentchy D weapon. The Divination Malediction that gives everyone Rending.
And yeah, Psychic Shriek, because it's a Primaris Power that almost every army can take automatically.

And what Fearless Cultists or Zombies are going to catch a Wraithknight? Ya know, a unit that's actually fast enough to choose its targets? And that still isn't good because stomp still exists.

Someone else told you how your math was bad for the Bully Boyz so I don't need to tackle that.

You're also talking about powers you actually have to roll. Psychic Shriek is the only one you're actually able to guarantee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I dunno about Skitarii, because I rarely play against them.
CSM can tie it down in Melee forever using fearless Cultists or zombies.
As for the Bully Boyz, my math is just fine. The boss is on a bike and the Meganobz are in a trukk, so the WK charging is by no means a given. Unless he took the D CCW, the Warboss will tank both wounds since the Ork player gets to allocate. Then, the Bully Boyz inflict 5 wounds, and the Warboss inflicts 1 more.

And yeah, Stomps will cause more damage if the WK rolls a 6, but by that point he's already dead.


Many a Psychic Power, yes. Enfeeble can combo with other things to kick him in the teeth. There's the sanctic D weapon, or the Tzeentchy D weapon. The Divination Malediction that gives everyone Rending.
And yeah, Psychic Shriek, because it's a Primaris Power that almost every army can take automatically.

And what Fearless Cultists or Zombies are going to catch a Wraithknight? Ya know, a unit that's actually fast enough to choose its targets? And that still isn't good because stomp still exists.

Someone else told you how your math was bad for the Bully Boyz so I don't need to tackle that.

You're also talking about powers you actually have to roll. Psychic Shriek is the only one you're actually able to guarantee.

Let's see... Maybe the Zombies are bubble wrap, and the WK can't get close to a good target without getting close to them? Maybe they're using one of the multiple mobility-boosting relics that CSM have access to? Maybe there's a nearby Psyker who knows Soulswitch or Worldwrithe?

And yeah, a lot of those powers have to be rolled for, but... So what? Pretty much everyone can get Shriek anyways if they need it, on top of the many other good powers available.

Finally, what's wrong with my math? I already explained how it works. If facing a sword/board WK, more Bully Boyz will do the trick in place of the Warboss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

A PK Warboss on a bike and 5 Bully Boyz will kill a Wraithknight in close combat, even if it has an invuln. (The Warboss is just there to tank damage. If it has the D CCW, just taking more Meganobz is probably the better route. Or just swarm it with Boyz and don't worry about killing it.)

PK Warboss on a Bike = 110pts 5 MegaNobz = 200pts total = 310pts
Wraithknight is 295pts

To get the Warboss on Bike into CC isn't that hard because the speed of bikes teamed with Jink means he has a good shot of getting their, of course the Meganobz...not so much, they need a Trukk MINIMUM to get into CC, so thats another 35pts (Ram). So lets say that the ork player saturates the field with targets and the Eldar player is unable to shoot an AV10 vehicle to death for whatever reason and the Nobz get the charge off joined by the warboss on a bike.

Overwatch the WK has a 1/3rd chance to disintegrate one of the Meganobz. So lets say they miss because thats likely and they all get into B2B.

Wraithknight swings at I5 and has 2 hits and 2 dead Meganobz or 2 wounds off the Warboss (T6)

5 Meganobz = 20 attacks on the charge at S9. so 10 hits and 7wounds. The warboss swings and has 5 attacks 2-3 hit and 1-2 more wounds. Total? 8-9wounds. If its the model without the 5++ that is 5-6wounds, so probably a dead WK. It gets to stomp and will reliably kill the rest of the Nobz/Warboss no problem. So HOORAY! Orks spent 345pts to kill a 295pt model. they have a 35pt trukk left thats it.

Now if the WK has a Scattershield then those 9 wounds become 6 and those 6 wounds become 4 (5++ and 5+++) So now the Orks have wasted all of those points and achieved nothing but most of the wounds off a WK.

NOW if the WK had the Glaive as well as the shield you just lost even worse because the Warboss can't tank Strength D. Since the weapon is Master Crafted he will more likely hit times which means 3 Dead Mega Nobz. So on the ork turn instead of 20 S9 attacks its 8 S9 attacks. which means 4 hits and 3ish wounds. Teamed with the warboss not nearly enough.

I said Bully Boyz, not Meganobz. Bully Boyz hit on 3s. That means another couple wounds, so even on an Invuln-protected WK, it's still dead.
Secondly, you somehow think that Stomps will obliterate anything, which is patently untrue. With an average of two stomps, there's only a 1/3rd chance of getting a 6. Any other result will bounce harmlessly off Meganob armor. If we're going to pretend that anyone can magically roll 6s all the time, then we may as well not bother doing the math at all - Everyone rolls all 6s. Nobody with an invuln ever dies.

And yeah, the D weapon is stronger, but it's getting 2.5 hits, which amounts to 2.2 wounds or so - Enough to make a single dead enemy unlikely, but it's not magically getting three wounds.


Stop twisting the math so you sound right.

Ok Lets go off Bullyboyz then. That means a guaranteed dead wraithknight. But since your taking Bullyboyz you have to take 5 meganobz in 3 units. So 15 total at 40pts a pop = 600pts, Give them all Trukkz with Rams and now your looking at 705pts invested in 3 FRAGILE trukkz. Add in the Warboss on a bike, and lets assume using common sense your giving him a Warbiker squad with Nob/PK and probably a painboy to escort him and your looking at around 328pts for your command squad. Grand total 1033pts for 3 Trukkz full of Bullyboyz and a Bike Command squad. Leaving you with 467pts to spend on Troops. In a Normal cad you can get away with just 2 units of grots But realistically you don't have many points left over for to many threats.

So what you are telling me is that in your supposed list against an Eldar List that has a single Wraithknight in it, you don't think the Eldar player will prioritize 3 AV10 Trukkz with Bully Boyz inside which account for almost 1/2 of your army? Really?

Turn 1 a Wraithknight can delete a trukk no problem. 2 left. Lets say he has 3 units of Min Scat Bikes as well because realistically thats whats going to happen, that or some Warp spiders. 3 Scat bikes can KILL a trukk every turn as well. 12 Shots, 8 hits, at S6 = 4 Glances/pens on average. So now your Bully Boyz are walking up the field.

I can keep going on with this nonsensical situation but it doesn't really prove much because we all know that when the dice hit the table all bets are off. However, from a theory hammer perspective you have little to no chance of reaching the wraithknight with 3 units of Bully Boyz and realistically you just wasted all your points on units that an Eldar player looks forward to facing because of how easy it is to kill them with their plethora of Strength D weapons, rapid firing high strength weapons and hell even bladestorm shuriken weapons.

No, Bullyboyz won't beat an Eldar list nor will they ever beat a Wraithknight when the Eldar player has even basic common sense.

Plus the fact that orks are probably not the best match up currently against eldar...

(the only mc's I have problems with are the tide, and flying tyranids and demon princes)
And demon princes only when doing crazy relic/psyker shenanigans.

Love the way people are actually suggesting using Witchfire as an actual strategy against Eldar.
Might as well count on out shooting the Tau.