Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry. I meant to say this is for an ITC format and their FAQ stated that:

In a Space Marine Command Squad, so long as a Veteran does not replace a weapon required for the upgrade, it may purchase any of the Veteran options and then be upgraded to an Apothecary or Company Champion.

The DA codex doesn't require an apothecary to give up any weapons. It just states that a marine may be upgraded to an apothecary for 15 points.

shogun wrote:
@ sons of vulkan

So lets play a game with relic and that GSC goes first.

So this is your army in the left corner in sum ruins:

Pink horror bubble wrap, small screamerstar, Magnus, fateweaver, LOC and a unit cultist with sorcerer in the back.(other cultist unit in reserve).



Then I deploy/cult ambush my big blob.

Only my primus/20 acolyte unit gets a 6 (that's 3xd6 so not really that surprising) and most other units deploy outside 6 inch. Other big acolyte unit ets outflank but on the right side. 1 patriarch with 10 acolytes and 1 magus with 10 neophytes outflank on the wrong side.


First turn: all my units move a little closer but still keep the bubble big enough to make sure no FMC can fly to the other side. Big unit that can assault move in towards the horrors.

Psychic phase: with 10 dice against 21 I pull of a big summoning and deploy (result 3) 20 neophytes behind/between the big acolyte unit that is about to assault. This way when the acolytes assault I can make sure the gap stays sealed.

Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.

I don't assume, I look at math averages. If you assume I fail grim + fatey re-rolls then I can assume you roll 60-70% 1s and 2s on the ambush table for your whole army, not here to play that game.

Anyways looking at your big pic, I counted over 100 models prior to any summoning. I counted 14 units in your army list, Of the 14, on average 5-6 random units should be rolling 1-2s on the ambush table and only 2-3 units may roll a 6. I highly doubt you will be able to cover enough area base on averages, also your basically assuming all your bigger units will all roll 3-6s.

Anyways looking at all your models stacking 2" within each other. Have you measured how big of a circular area is 9"? Nova states all units within range takes that many hits and from the look oft your pic, a single nova power will hit ALOT of your units. Looking at all those units stacking on top of each other, I probably will not even gonna summon at all turn 1 and maybe even 2, everything will go into mind bullets.

GSC players keep saying RttS, you think a good player gonna be stupid enough to waste a shooting power against a unit thats either too far away or too big to be kill completely? Flicker fire is probably gonna target some of those 5-6 man units. I am very confident I can wipe out majority of your units within 9" between magic and assault, your really underestimating how big 9" is. Any units that are not completely wiped out within 9-15", I will simply make a run move with Magnus and/or sweep attack with screamer star within 6" and you can't RttS. Again I highly doubt you'll have enough units to ambush ON AVERAGE in order to deny swooping from the gecko base on the size of my deployment bubble.

And if you don't roll any summoning powers, your really screwed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And trust me I will be dedicating all 17+D6 WC into shooting since you decided to feed me 70%+ of your army. And majority will go into the Novas in order to prevent you from denying. And yes Magnus will cast siphon magic, so when he is casting his nova it will practically be free. A single beam will hit probably 7-10 models lol

 ILegion wrote:
Sorry. I meant to say this is for an ITC format and their FAQ stated that:

In a Space Marine Command Squad, so long as a Veteran does not replace a weapon required for the upgrade, it may purchase any of the Veteran options and then be upgraded to an Apothecary or Company Champion.

The DA codex doesn't require an apothecary to give up any weapons. It just states that a marine may be upgraded to an apothecary for 15 points.

Check your DA FAQ. it will trump the ITC FAQ. you can't do it anymore



Automatically Appended Next Post:
NOVAs can be denied as normal as they target every unit in range. beams can't as the pick a point on the ground

Haha well crap. Thanks for pointing that out. I don't want to luck like a complete idiot at a tournament.

 rawne2510 wrote:

NOVAs can be denied as normal as they target every unit in range. beams can't as the pick a point on the ground

Hmm what's this?
It says in the rulebook that one of the units containing a model being hit by a beam can attempt to deny it. Did that change in the FAQ?

No. if it affects your unit, you can deny it.

Arson Fire wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

NOVAs can be denied as normal as they target every unit in range. beams can't as the pick a point on the ground

Hmm what's this?
It says in the rulebook that one of the units containing a model being hit by a beam can attempt to deny it. Did that change in the FAQ?

misintupreted it because you can't jink against it. My bad.

Just beam so you don't hit his Magus unit, that way he can only deny at 5+ with adman will. Every dice he throws at other stuff is less dice he can throw at the Nova.

With the way he sets up in order to deny ground, no matter how much he stagger his models, a beam will still hit 6-8 models which is just as good as templates.

Let see what I got guarantee prior to throwing any Novas:
Fatey: Flame breath, bolt of Tz, flicker fire
Magnus: Bolt of Tz, doom bolt, flicker fire, maybe summon a chariot to torrent if there aren't much left within 9".
Herald of Tz: flicker fire

Then good potentials spells I may get since I'm throwing all dice into malefic with the herald: dark flame, infernal gaze.
LoC all into Change or Malefic: For another Nova or Dark flame/gaze.

I'm not even gonna name any thing good Fatey may get since he only gets 1 roll on each discipline. On top of all that at T3 they arevery susceptible to warp flame and don't forget soul blaze. GSC players will have to pray for night fight turn 1 lol.

When the dust settles I don't think I'll be within good charging range to any of his units, so screamers turbo boost 24" 5xD3 sweeping attack on whatever big unit that is still alive and spreading out to prevent multiple units from RttS.

By turn 4 he's not gonna have much left to contest the relic and hopefully not many base WCs left either. Fatey, herald and Magnus all summon some units turn 4 and 5 to contest/control the relic. Again we are talking about potentially 40 daemonettes, and 6 flamers in two turns.

shogun wrote:

Look at this madness. That sea of dudes right there is what I see whenever someone tells me they're going to "dominate" or "control" anything against the Genestealer Cults. It's why I say "you're not going to do that". If you're running a Gladius Rhino rush then yeah, maybe - but when your army has 40 dudes in it I find it less convincing, especially when my shooting can actually hurt the majority of the said dudes. Problem is I'm so used to passing my shooting phases I'd probably forget to throw the grenades or poppity pop my little pop-guns.

Again, look how much of the table these dudes are just squatting in. The top left corner is the edge of the terrain piece, which is maybe 9-12" from the table edge. Shogun's furthest dudes are sitting maybe 8" from that. Now you might think it's Nova time and you'd be right - but you move **before** you start killing models, not after, and he has a cover save plus a bunch of psykers on deck.

This is after he's pulled, what, 50 dudes into Ambush reserve.

I can't take seriously this idea that anyone with a monster mash army is going to "dominate" or "control" anything early-game against GSC. Granted, shogun's opposition are deployed much tighter into the corner than I'd deploy against GSC, but even if you go for an open deployment, present your Screamer-"star" and Horrors/ Cultists as the only possible charge options, then when they get charged push your monsters forward into the Pile In gap and start Nova-ing for your life, you're ***still*** going to struggle to cut through that many dudes quickly - and since you move before the Novas go off (assuming they go off past his 8-12 Denial dice) your army will **still** be a full turn behind the game when it comes to controlling and dominating things.

The name of the game for me is forcing a space to summon Daemons into. When you've done that you can then start trying to control and dominate things.

 rawne2510 wrote:
There is no way that a GSC which is trying to bubble wrap my FMC into the corner I have set up will be able to spread enough in the second turn to cover a full 20" deep area from my board edge. they aren't that mobile.

I can put models anywhere I want within a certain distance of enemy units. No scatter, no mishaps, no nothing; they go exactly where I want them. You don't get much more mobile than that.

the 3 FMC in this scenario have 12 + D6 WC and and magnus with syphon magic

So the same number of WC as my Genestealer Cults, who are already starting with 120 bodies on the table, 100 of which are replenishable.

 ILegion wrote:
HQ - Stock chaplain and Company Master

2 x5 man assault squads, 2 x flamers, 2 x combi-flamers - drop pod

2 x 5 man dev squad, 2 x grav in each, 2 x rhino in each

2 x 5 man command squad, 5 x melta in one, 5 x gravguns w/ apothocary and sacred standard in one, both in drop pods

1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, drop pod, combat squaded

1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, rhino, combat squaded

4 x 5 man tac squad, 2 x melta, 2x razor/TL assault cannon

1 x 5 man scout squad

I'd be more worried about facing this than I would any of the Magnus lists I've seen so far. Bolter Scouts outflanking into my cozy little Summoning corner is something I don't want to see.

One thing I would note is that Overwatch isn't something I really worry about. If I'm running big squads like Shogun does then they can soak it well enough, whereas if I'm running my usual small squads then I'll assault with two at a time, one to eat the bullets and the other to eat your face. Your Overwatch will hurt a lot more than most but I can still beat it.

What would you're tactics be when facing something like this?

I'd probably reserve my CAD dudes, deploy everything else on top of your Rhinos and infantry. Lead with the Subterranean Uprising against the Rhinos and infantry so they can get their Shrouded saves and the dudes behind them get 4+ cover on turn one, plus deploy my Neophytes to the rear to prevent Pods helping out the dudes on the board by rinsing away my back lines. Now you either abandon your Rhinos and infantry to get slowly gribbled away while your Pods drop elsewhere and hold ground, or you try to help them out by deploying the Pods forward of my dudes, in which case my attack will melt away and I can start Ambushing onto flags etc.

That doesn't rely on my dudes all rolling 6s to Ambush. A couple of them might, but we'll say none of them do. You have no shootan' that ignores cover outside of the Pods so my entire army is both fearless and has cover saves first turn. Turn two they can charge you no matter what. I also have CAD dudes in reserve to hop around capping flags if needs be.

The other, more neutral way to approach this would be to just deploy everything in a corner with the Neophytes on Pod-blocking duty, then leave a half-decent force in my corner with most of my psykers while I Ambush two Patriarchs plus everything else. That gives me control of a quarter, allows me to start Summoning things at you on turn 1, and means I have a Fearless Ambush contingent to throw at your backfield or cap flags with, which means your Rhinos and Infantry have to hang back and potentially leave your Pods exposed. You don't really have any long range shooting I need to worry about, and once those Pods fall I can start ripping up what falls out, using my Neophytes to eat Flamer hits and Overwatch.


More generally - the way I fight Gladius-style armies with GSC is to try and separate them as much as possible so they can't support each other effectively, then gribble them in small portions. If my opponent prevents that from happening I'm gonna have a bad time.

Would it be hard to RttS you think or would a list like this make it more difficult with all the units in transport/drop pods?

It's difficult to get RttS going against any army with a big footprint, and against Mehrens it's doubly so because everything is so resilient. Combats happen all over the place and can last multiple turns, creating no-go zones where a single wayward Pile In can lock dudes on the table. Even when I win the Mehrens' I4 means dudes can break and run right into RttS-denial range, then turn around and hose me. Plus there's Immobilised, Weapon Destroyed Rhinos everywhere doing nothing but blocking my RttS, Drop Pods next to all the flags, Scouts popping out of trees and suchforth. You can't rely on the carousel in the same way as you can against the likes of Eldar, so you need to accept that your first big attack is probably going to be the only one you get to make.

Luckily very few Marines have any kind of psychic defence which means my Summons and Hypnosis can go off without a hitch - that's good, because when I can't pull squads into Ambush reserve I need Summons to keep my numbers up. They also bring very little that's capable of tackling a Patriarch in CC, which means even if they manage to punch out the Acolytes they usually end up ripped apart anyways. Expect at least two of those dudes in every GSC army and you won't go far wrong.

My statement about the coverage was with regards to moving from that initial deployment to stopping my FMC swooping back on the board second turn. thats 72" full board length 20" deep.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.

I don't assume, I look at math averages.

You know what the problem is with 2/3 bubble wrappings? You cannot effectively move them away to make room for magnus and/or the LOC and fateweaver. In your picture you make a big deployment bubble without any cover near and I don't think that thats realistically. If you would deploy within/near a piece of cover and those /cultist horrors move 2 inch (difficult terrain) then I already got a great barrier between me and the FMC. Did a psychic phase with this setup (with nightfight):

GSC 8 warpdice + 4= 12
Daemons 17 warpdice + 4= 21

Magnus cast magic syphon with 1 dice, succeed (20 warp charge left).
Lord of change cast nova with 4 (reroll 1) and got 2 warp charge, GSC counters with 6 dice and succeed (16 + 1-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, with bubblewrap and units within cover + first turn shrouded there is no unit without a 2/3+ coversave. I got 2 wounds but save one with 6+ feel no pain from the icon. (14 + 2-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, also no model without coversave and he kills 2. (12 + 3-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast beam with 2 and succeed but bubblewrap in front of him limits his options to place the beam. first 2 models die but the other unit behind them got a 2+ coversave (intervening models +shrouded + stealth) the survive. (10 + 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast beam with 2 but fails (8+ 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cannot use normal flamer with horrors in front so he's going to use psychic shriek with 2 and succeeds, and kills 2 (6+ 5-syphon warp charge left)
Magnus cast nova with 5 and succeeds with 3. He can only kill 5 GSC with those horror/cultist in between so GSC are not going to deny. Nova gets Strength 4, wounds 4 and one succeeds with 6+ feel no pain. So 3 kills. (6 warpcharge left).
Magnus cast lvl3 flickering fire with the remaining 6 warpcharge and succeeds. He hits with 18 shots, 15wounds, after the 3+ coversave and 6+ feel no pain he got 8 kills.

So thats 18 kills...

After that the warp storm table got the khorne blast and kills another 2 models (2 blasts but one scatters 10 inch away) and the screamers slash a unit but have to land back behind the bubblewrap so thats another 2+ coversave (intervening models + shrouded + stealth), and the kill 1 model.

So thats a total of 21 kills... Next turn I got 5 extra warpdice and managed to summon 20 neophytes and the outflank in a way that the fill up the space again(after run move). All units disperse and make sure the FMC cannot fly over and neophytes that trow a '6' assault the horrors and get hatred(Primus within 12 inch) +1 wskilll (within 6 inch of another unit from the blood cycle formation) and furious charge (within 24 inch of the icon ward). Thats 30 attacks with 3+ reroll to hit and 3+ to wound. Horrors fail the instability test. Neophytes consolidate back to fill the gap again.

With 2 warp dice less the daemons can have another go and even if the kill 30 models I wouldn't be sweating.


One thing I learned from daemons in regard to math averages: You have to expect that every turn sum thing major is going to suck. This could be a failing warp storm table (even with reroll), perils of the warp that makes an FMC dropping from the sky, mishaps, or failing psychic powers.

shogun wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.

I don't assume, I look at math averages.

You know what the problem is with 2/3 bubble wrappings? You cannot effectively move them away to make room for magnus and/or the LOC and fateweaver. In your picture you make a big deployment bubble without any cover near and I don't think that thats realistically. If you would deploy within/near a piece of cover and those /cultist horrors move 2 inch (difficult terrain) then I already got a great barrier between me and the FMC. Did a psychic phase with this setup (with nightfight):

GSC 8 warpdice + 4= 12
Daemons 17 warpdice + 4= 21

Magnus cast magic syphon with 1 dice, succeed (20 warp charge left).
Lord of change cast nova with 4 (reroll 1) and got 2 warp charge, GSC counters with 6 dice and succeed (16 + 1-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, with bubblewrap and units within cover + first turn shrouded there is no unit without a 2/3+ coversave. I got 2 wounds but save one with 6+ feel no pain from the icon. (14 + 2-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, also no model without coversave and he kills 2. (12 + 3-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast beam with 2 and succeed but bubblewrap in front of him limits his options to place the beam. first 2 models die but the other unit behind them got a 2+ coversave (intervening models +shrouded + stealth) the survive. (10 + 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast beam with 2 but fails (8+ 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cannot use normal flamer with horrors in front so he's going to use psychic shriek with 2 and succeeds, and kills 2 (6+ 5-syphon warp charge left)
Magnus cast nova with 5 and succeeds with 3. He can only kill 5 GSC with those horror/cultist in between so GSC are not going to deny. Nova gets Strength 4, wounds 4 and one succeeds with 6+ feel no pain. So 3 kills. (6 warpcharge left).
Magnus cast lvl3 flickering fire with the remaining 6 warpcharge and succeeds. He hits with 18 shots, 15wounds, after the 3+ coversave and 6+ feel no pain he got 8 kills.

So thats 18 kills...

After that the warp storm table got the khorne blast and kills another 2 models (2 blasts but one scatters 10 inch away) and the screamers slash a unit but have to land back behind the bubblewrap so thats another 2+ coversave (intervening models + shrouded + stealth), and the kill 1 model.

So thats a total of 21 kills... Next turn I got 5 extra warpdice and managed to summon 20 neophytes and the outflank in a way that the fill up the space again(after run move). All units disperse and make sure the FMC cannot fly over and neophytes that trow a '6' assault the horrors and get hatred(Primus within 12 inch) +1 wskilll (within 6 inch of another unit from the blood cycle formation) and furious charge (within 24 inch of the icon ward). Thats 30 attacks with 3+ reroll to hit and 3+ to wound. Horrors fail the instability test. Neophytes consolidate back to fill the gap again.

With 2 warp dice less the daemons can have another go and even if the kill 30 models I wouldn't be sweating.


One thing I learned from daemons in regard to math averages: You have to expect that every turn sum thing major is going to suck. This could be a failing warp storm table (even with reroll), perils of the warp that makes an FMC dropping from the sky, mishaps, or failing psychic powers.

As a long time daemon player, this actually seems pretty realistic. HOWEVER, The turn afterwords will be brutal without the cover save. Also, you forgot to mention warp flame, half the squads are going to get lose a handful of dudes and the other half will be harder to kill next turn.

I don't know magnus's powers as well but I have a feeling he could do a few more useful things. Like swapping out some flickering fire a chariot or have some of the other flickering fires swap for a unit of flamers, worst case scenario, another 10 models die. Also, if I were the GSC playerr, I would do my best to NOT have a patriarch anywhere nearby so that everyone could go to ground. Then in my turn I could sneak him in there so everyone stands back up.

shogun wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.

I don't assume, I look at math averages.

You know what the problem is with 2/3 bubble wrappings? You cannot effectively move them away to make room for magnus and/or the LOC and fateweaver. In your picture you make a big deployment bubble without any cover near and I don't think that thats realistically. If you would deploy within/near a piece of cover and those /cultist horrors move 2 inch (difficult terrain) then I already got a great barrier between me and the FMC. Did a psychic phase with this setup (with nightfight):

GSC 8 warpdice + 4= 12
Daemons 17 warpdice + 4= 21

Magnus cast magic syphon with 1 dice, succeed (20 warp charge left).
Lord of change cast nova with 4 (reroll 1) and got 2 warp charge, GSC counters with 6 dice and succeed (16 + 1-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, with bubblewrap and units within cover + first turn shrouded there is no unit without a 2/3+ coversave. I got 2 wounds but save one with 6+ feel no pain from the icon. (14 + 2-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, also no model without coversave and he kills 2. (12 + 3-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast beam with 2 and succeed but bubblewrap in front of him limits his options to place the beam. first 2 models die but the other unit behind them got a 2+ coversave (intervening models +shrouded + stealth) the survive. (10 + 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast beam with 2 but fails (8+ 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cannot use normal flamer with horrors in front so he's going to use psychic shriek with 2 and succeeds, and kills 2 (6+ 5-syphon warp charge left)
Magnus cast nova with 5 and succeeds with 3. He can only kill 5 GSC with those horror/cultist in between so GSC are not going to deny. Nova gets Strength 4, wounds 4 and one succeeds with 6+ feel no pain. So 3 kills. (6 warpcharge left).
Magnus cast lvl3 flickering fire with the remaining 6 warpcharge and succeeds. He hits with 18 shots, 15wounds, after the 3+ coversave and 6+ feel no pain he got 8 kills.

So thats 18 kills...

After that the warp storm table got the khorne blast and kills another 2 models (2 blasts but one scatters 10 inch away) and the screamers slash a unit but have to land back behind the bubblewrap so thats another 2+ coversave (intervening models + shrouded + stealth), and the kill 1 model.

So thats a total of 21 kills... Next turn I got 5 extra warpdice and managed to summon 20 neophytes and the outflank in a way that the fill up the space again(after run move). All units disperse and make sure the FMC cannot fly over and neophytes that trow a '6' assault the horrors and get hatred(Primus within 12 inch) +1 wskilll (within 6 inch of another unit from the blood cycle formation) and furious charge (within 24 inch of the icon ward). Thats 30 attacks with 3+ reroll to hit and 3+ to wound. Horrors fail the instability test. Neophytes consolidate back to fill the gap again.

With 2 warp dice less the daemons can have another go and even if the kill 30 models I wouldn't be sweating.


One thing I learned from daemons in regard to math averages: You have to expect that every turn sum thing major is going to suck. This could be a failing warp storm table (even with reroll), perils of the warp that makes an FMC dropping from the sky, mishaps, or failing psychic powers.

Nah its actually quite easy to move my horrors and cultists out of the way backwards and remain in coherency, I do it all the time. The most you'll get is 4++ from shrouded, not 3++ unless you go to ground. If you think thats how I will set up my psychic phase your delusional and if there is no night fight your screwed?

Like I wrote earlier you most likely will not roll enough ambushing models to cover enough area to deny 24" swooping

I just read your bat rep in the GSC thread, your list performed horribly and went 1-2. You realized now that its not good to always rely on getting that one single spell or rolling good on whatever table in order to win? Or relying on night fight? If you think that Tetrad list was hard, you should face one of the top LVO magnus list (which are similar to mine).

Anyways 2 Magnus lists made it to top 8 in the LVO and 0 GSC.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Nah its actually quite easy to move my horrors and cultists out of the way backwards and remain in coherency, I do it all the time. The most you'll get is 4++ from shrouded, not 3++ unless you go to ground. If you think thats how I will set up my psychic phase your delusional and if there is no night fight your screwed?

Like I wrote earlier you most likely will not roll enough ambushing models to cover enough area to deny 24" swooping

Anyways 2 Magnus lists made it to top 8 in the LVO and 0 GSC.

I don't know, I wouldn't risk running my FMCs out in front of the blocking infantry just to kill a few extra dudes, maybe I'm misunderstanding. If you shoot through your own guys you're giving a cover save.

And It would be a poor bet to assume that the GSC player can't deploy like shogun showed. If I'm not mistaken you actually did roll that?

It would certainly be more difficult with the faq confirming you need to roll one at a time but I don't think it's too unreasonable. Especially if you play someone with correct 32 mm bases on a 140 models. It's a silly amount of space to fill.

I would expect that all the FMC would be able to be flying. It only needs 12" move for that to activate.

So since this is the Anti-GSC thread, can we come up with a few bullet-point tips?
As a Daemon & Eldar player, it doesn't look particularly hopeful unless I list tailor.

-As a daemon player, despite stating that I think GSC has a chance I think daemons have a favorable match up. So I would make sure that your FMCs always fly towards concentrations of models so they can't Return to shadows.

-As an eldar player, I would say to accept that GSC is a part of the meta and maybe take some of the high attacks/high initiative units we talked about earlier.

Otherwise, I would try to deploy in a corner and shoot your way out. Go for the apoc blast, shrieks, and perfect timing, also that full bs overwatch power. The skatchach is also brutal in forcing the gsc player to not deploy aggressively.

-General tactics, kill the HQs first, the army gets way better with hatred and especially fearless.

-Also, if we're being honest, it's a slow army to play, play to be winning by turns 4/5

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Nah its actually quite easy to move my horrors and cultists out of the way backwards and remain in coherency, I do it all the time. The most you'll get is 4++ from shrouded, not 3++ unless you go to ground. If you think thats how I will set up my psychic phase your delusional and if there is no night fight your screwed?

Okay lets do this again, would you setup like this with hammer and anvil/relic mission (white plastic pot= VSG)?



If not, then please let me know how.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

I just read your bat rep in the GSC thread, your list performed horribly and went 1-2. You realized now that it's not good to always rely on getting that one single spell or rolling good on whatever table in order to win? Or relying on night fight?

Apples and oranges. Its like me saying that you should not have a list thats relying on d6 strength nova's. There is a little bit more to that.

I'am not relying on a single spell or a single table. In the end I choose to go for the kill because I want that 20-0 tournament result and the daemon player already got a few maelstrom objectives the first and second turn. I was very close at pulling that off and it could just as well have been a 20-0 for me. The Tzeentch daemon prince with robes got two wound and we both completely forgot the leadership test he has got to take when he gets a wound. My list did not perform horribly but I wont deny that I still need sum pratice. There where a lot of good armylists in that tournament but almost every player either got a 20-0 or 0-20 result. You see that more and more these day's. Lists got a gimmick and if the get the first turn or the right psychic powers it's done.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Anyways 2 Magnus lists made it to top 8 in the LVO and 0 GSC.

There are not a lot of GSC-armies like mine because the GSC-codex is barely around the corner and not everyone got that amount of acolytes and metamorphs (painted) in that amount of time (yet). Daemon players only need to buy a single Magnus model and the can go to town. You don't even got your army painted and I don't see any tournament battle report showing your results.

I play Marine/GK combo. Scouts w/ skimmers, TFCs and GK formation.

Anti GSC tactics ?

Do you have tiggy and coteaz attached to the thunderfires? If so I think I played that exact list at captaincon!

The scouts with the strength 4 large blast is brutal. The thunderfire will remove the large units.

How I beat that list was coming in just outside coteaz's 12 inch bubble then assaulting a techmarine that was the farthest from coteaz so it wasn't so bad of a charge. I failed the first time, got my whole unit destroyed, then tried again and made the charge.

The dreadknights are brutal. Don't worry about first turn assaults, just deploy them and let them flame thrower stuff. If they get assaulted it happens, better than staying in reserve till turn 4.

 Galef wrote:
So since this is the Anti-GSC thread, can we come up with a few bullet-point tips?
As a Daemon & Eldar player, it doesn't look particularly hopeful unless I list tailor.

GSC can be intimidating but it's razor sharp paper. Yes, its sharp but its still paper.

- bubble wrapping is a good thing but its also good to deploy apart to make sure you got room to move after the drop.

- If a GSC player is fielding a subterranean uprising formation then the must deploy using the cult ambush table. These units cannot come out of reserves so the need to return in the shadows if you want to play 'second turn' cult ambush wave. A lot of enemy players don't want to sacrifice a unit but most times It's better to turbo boost a unit screamers or eldar jetbikes within 6 inch to mess up their plans. Also summoning 5 seekers with 6+d6 run move can make a nice bubblewrap wall.

- Also, realise that acolytes/metamorphs move and assault like normal infantry and in combination with overwatch the really need to be close to make effective assault moves.

- Don't be afraid to assault. Jetbikes with hammer of wrath and I5 can really hurt.

- Take out the key units, especially the fearless bubble Patriarch.

I imagine World Eaters would give GSC a run for their money. Fast moving assault heavy army against horde based assault heavy army. GSC have a leg up in the shooting and psykic phases, but assaulting is Khorne's turf.

There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.

The top GSC player is ranked #14, his only lost was to Brandon Grant's DA Gladius. Full BS overwatch is like auto win against GSC, plus a 40 wolves barkstar ouch.

A magnus list vs gladius in purge the alien is also an auto-win. Yet guess who was in the finals? I don't think there's too many auto-win match ups. There's always a chance.

I say this because I think GSC is like daemons in that a really good player can make up for poor rolling to a point but sometimes it's just too much. On the flipside, a really good palyer who also has a few important rolls go their way can be pretty unstoppable.

Like the bark star?A 20 man acolyte unit combining hatred, furious charge or the +1 strength and rage psychic power with -1 initiative to the bark star could pretty conceivably kill the whole bark star(or most of it) before it can swing.

100 attacks hitting on re-rolling 3s or just 3s, wounding on 3s, or 2s. Even a bark star has trouble dealing with 50 wounds with a dozen rending wounds mixed in.

It's a little unrealistic but I've also played like 15 games with my GSC and actually did that in one of them and wiped out a Canoptic wraith star with reanimate up.

One of the games was against lions blade and I found that with summoning and all the neophytes in my army I could actually trade volleys without assaulting.

 vercingatorix wrote:
A magnus list vs gladius in purge the alien is also an auto-win. Yet guess who was in the finals? I don't think there's too many auto-win match ups. There's always a chance.

I say this because I think GSC is like daemons in that a really good player can make up for poor rolling to a point but sometimes it's just too much. On the flipside, a really good palyer who also has a few important rolls go their way can be pretty unstoppable.

Like the bark star?A 20 man acolyte unit combining hatred, furious charge or the +1 strength and rage psychic power with -1 initiative to the bark star could pretty conceivably kill the whole bark star(or most of it) before it can swing.

100 attacks hitting on re-rolling 3s or just 3s, wounding on 3s, or 2s. Even a bark star has trouble dealing with 50 wounds with a dozen rending wounds mixed in.

It's a little unrealistic but I've also played like 15 games with my GSC and actually did that in one of them and wiped out a Canoptic wraith star with reanimate up.

One of the games was against lions blade and I found that with summoning and all the neophytes in my army I could actually trade volleys without assaulting.

In the ITC purge the alien mission, Gladius can easily win the maelstrom portion against Magnus, thus it will come down to secondaries.

Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.

@ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?

SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.

Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVO GSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.

Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.

shogun wrote:
@ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?

SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.

Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVO GSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.

Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.

In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.

You are not going to lock a 40 wolf barkstar with Azrael and a priest in combat with a 5-10 man acolyte unit.... They have counter attack with re-roll hits and potentially wounds.

The only 2 things I have seen slow a bark start other than another bark star is:

The Masque
Screamer start with grimore supported by fateweaver.

Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.

Might start seeing some Dreadnoughts around to counter the nasty GSC.
I'd be curious if the Cult can re-define what units are deemed auto-includes.