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Were they always shaped like that or did Abaddon modify them?

They have always been like that ever since they first appeared in the BFG rulebook as mysterious alien structures. This was before they were rewritten to be the Talismans of Vaul.

Blackstone fortresses are oooold. Maybe chaos stars just happen to look a bit like them?

Iracundus wrote:
They have always been like that ever since they first appeared in the BFG rulebook as mysterious alien structures. This was before they were rewritten to be the Talismans of Vaul.

any fluff reason why they look like Chaos stars?

No in-universe reason.

Out of universe speculative reason: The activated Blackstone Fortresses were in the Chaos fleet list for BFG.

They destroy worlds, kill God's and I'd imagine chaos stars look like Blackstone fortresses as some sort of racial memory of the death of civilizations....

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Blackstone fortresses are oooold. Maybe chaos stars just happen to look a bit like them?

Interesting. There is no mention of the origins of the Chaos star either.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Blackstone fortresses are oooold. Maybe chaos stars just happen to look a bit like them?

Interesting. There is no mention of the origins of the Chaos star either.

Yeah this I like

The Chaos Gods (aside from Slaanesh) were likely birthed in their current form during the War in Heaven, which is also when the Old Ones/Eldar made the Talismans of Vaul (Blackstone Fortresses). The image of them probably became ingrained with notions of war, suffering and other such things that shaped the nature of the primordial Chaos Gods.

Just a theory, but one I rather like

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Blackstone fortresses are oooold. Maybe chaos stars just happen to look a bit like them?

Interesting. There is no mention of the origins of the Chaos star either.

Yeah this I like

The Chaos Gods (aside from Slaanesh) were likely birthed in their current form during the War in Heaven, which is also when the Old Ones/Eldar made the Talismans of Vaul (Blackstone Fortresses). The image of them probably became ingrained with notions of war, suffering and other such things that shaped the nature of the primordial Chaos Gods.

Just a theory, but one I rather like

I've read that Tzeentch was formed during the renaissance era, so millions of years after the War in Heaven. Not sure if this is actually true though.

Interesting. Where's that from?

So, still Khorne and Nurgle then it's mentioned that the War in Heaven stirred up the warp from a peaceful ocean into the roiling hot mess we've got now, presumably corrupting the once-peaceful native denizens as well...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Interesting. Where's that from?

So, still Khorne and Nurgle then it's mentioned that the War in Heaven stirred up the warp from a peaceful ocean into the roiling hot mess we've got now, presumably corrupting the once-peaceful native denizens as well...

It was mentioned in old background that Khorne and Nurgle were birthed in current form during the medieval age if I recall correctly (Khorne during a time of great fighting and Nurgle during the Black Death I think). That doesn't necessarily mean that humans caused their "births"; it could be that their awakening caused great conflict/disease/plotting. Also time not running normally in the Warp means they don't really have ages in the normal sense. Not sure what book it's from.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Blackstone fortresses are oooold. Maybe chaos stars just happen to look a bit like them?

Interesting. There is no mention of the origins of the Chaos star either.

Yeah this I like

The Chaos Gods (aside from Slaanesh) were likely birthed in their current form during the War in Heaven, which is also when the Old Ones/Eldar made the Talismans of Vaul (Blackstone Fortresses). The image of them probably became ingrained with notions of war, suffering and other such things that shaped the nature of the primordial Chaos Gods.

Just a theory, but one I rather like

I approve, gonna put this in my own headcanon now.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
They have always been like that ever since they first appeared in the BFG rulebook as mysterious alien structures. This was before they were rewritten to be the Talismans of Vaul.

any fluff reason why they look like Chaos stars?

8 pointed stars are the symbol of Islam. It brings up loose images of the forgotten knowledge, the other, and the jihad from Europe's history with the near east.

 Exergy wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
They have always been like that ever since they first appeared in the BFG rulebook as mysterious alien structures. This was before they were rewritten to be the Talismans of Vaul.

any fluff reason why they look like Chaos stars?

8 pointed stars are the symbol of Islam. It brings up loose images of the forgotten knowledge, the other, and the jihad from Europe's history with the near east.

The Islamic star is a 2{4} regular octagram. Quite unlike the Chaos star though. Also, I asked for an in-fluff reason.

There ain't no Islam in 40k, only the Imperial Cult. I'm pretty sure that ISIS is worshipping Khorne though.

There used to be an Islam, but that's long since gone by the time 40k comes around, just like every other modern religion.

In-universe there really isn't an explanation.

Well, like most good things, GW punked it from somebody else and incorporated it into their own work...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

Look in the section on "Games".

So the reason that the BS Fortress looks like that, is because someone at GW read geeky stuff, thought it was cool, and started putting it on all their chaosy stuff. It looksl like that, in universe, because GW began associating that symbolism with Chaos, and the BS fortresses are Chaos' thing. It would look pretty weird if Chaos was in control of a model with an Eldar aesthetic, regardless of why it would look that way.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Interesting. Where's that from?

So, still Khorne and Nurgle then it's mentioned that the War in Heaven stirred up the warp from a peaceful ocean into the roiling hot mess we've got now, presumably corrupting the once-peaceful native denizens as well...

It was mentioned in old background that Khorne and Nurgle were birthed in current form during the medieval age if I recall correctly (Khorne during a time of great fighting and Nurgle during the Black Death I think). That doesn't necessarily mean that humans caused their "births"; it could be that their awakening caused great conflict/disease/plotting. Also time not running normally in the Warp means they don't really have ages in the normal sense. Not sure what book it's from.

I believe the "birth order" goes: Nurgle -> Khorne -> Tzeentch -> Slaanesh. Who knows when the %$2 Malal shows up in that mix.

Since this spans 2nd to Current edition, the only theory i've seen tie it all together comes from GW Designer Andy Hoare.

The Materium has this itty bitty little Dimension we call "Time."

The Immaterium doesn't...or Does....depending.

So although we can pinpoint the birth of a Chaos God to a specific century, his/her/its effects can be felt prior to its creation.

Not sure how that jives though with the current War of Heaven fluff, since we have two...i guess.. "states" of the Immaterium, Pre-War in Heaven and Post...








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, like most good things, GW punked it from somebody else and incorporated it into their own work...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

Look in the section on "Games".

So the reason that the BS Fortress looks like that, is because someone at GW read geeky stuff, thought it was cool, and started putting it on all their chaosy stuff. It looksl like that, in universe, because GW began associating that symbolism with Chaos, and the BS fortresses are Chaos' thing. It would look pretty weird if Chaos was in control of a model with an Eldar aesthetic, regardless of why it would look that way.

The whole "Order vs. Chaos" motif of 40K and Warhammer Fantasy was literally ripped off from Michael Moorcock's work.

There was a funny post on another forum about "What if People sued GW for their Intellectual Property violation" and listed all the claimants.

Moorcock is at the top of the List.

Frank Herbert's Estate (Dune) could sue for the Emperor.

John Wagner (Judge Dredd) can get his chunk for the Arbites.

I think the most damaging on the list would have been 20th Century Fox (Alien/Aliens/Prometheus) for the Tyranids...although i think someone made the argument that the concept has been changed enough through the years to prevent that now.

Yeah the Chaos Star is closest to some sort of pagan octagram of some sort. Not too au fait with my pagan iconography, but it was pretty thoroughly demonised by the Christian church so has come to be associated with a lot of daemonic and devilish things.

As for the Blackstone Fortresses my interpretation is that they weren't built by the Eldar, but they were built by the God Vaul. Now the Eldar gods of myth I believe are either reflections or mythic desctriptions of the various Old Ones/Old One races during their pre-history. So, the Blackstone Fortresses were most likely built by the Old Ones, so wouldn't necessarily share the Eldar's aesthetic

Also, I rather like the interweaving of so many other geeky IPs into the 40k universe gives me perfect licence for people to create such brilliant things like Weirdingway's Dune-themed Navigator Household

Personally, I'd quite like to do a Riddick/Necromunga themed IG regiment, or maybe something Barsoomian at some point in time (all with a thoroughly 40k twist of course...)

GrapeApe wrote:

I believe the "birth order" goes: Nurgle -> Khorne -> Tzeentch -> Slaanesh. Who knows when the %$2 Malal shows up in that mix.

The correct order is Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle then Slaanesh. This is from the original Realms of Chaos books, which I have. GW no longer owns the rights to Malal so I do not expect Malal to ever be mentioned by name ever again.

Khorne rose from growing large scale violence of humanity. Tzeentch as humanity became more complex in social organization (maybe the rise of the first city-states and civilizations?). Nurgle's birth saw plague sweep around the world. The Realms of Chaos stated that all 3 had been born and were awake by the Middle Ages.

Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, have been human gods just as Gork and Mork are Ork gods. They may have been small and weak originally on a galactic scale but they have grown in size as humanity itself has grown and spread across the stars. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that was born instantly at the top tier of power already. Slaanesh is like someone winning the lottery whereas the others "earned" their way gradually. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that has migrated over to feed off of humans, though retains a fondness for Eldar souls. The migration and adoption of new gods into pantheons is a phenomenon that RL history and religions have seen.

Iracundus wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

I believe the "birth order" goes: Nurgle -> Khorne -> Tzeentch -> Slaanesh. Who knows when the %$2 Malal shows up in that mix.

The correct order is Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle then Slaanesh. This is from the original Realms of Chaos books, which I have. GW no longer owns the rights to Malal so I do not expect Malal to ever be mentioned by name ever again.

Khorne rose from growing large scale violence of humanity. Tzeentch as humanity became more complex in social organization (maybe the rise of the first city-states and civilizations?). Nurgle's birth saw plague sweep around the world. The Realms of Chaos stated that all 3 had been born and were awake by the Middle Ages.

Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, have been human gods just as Gork and Mork are Ork gods. They may have been small and weak originally on a galactic scale but they have grown in size as humanity itself has grown and spread across the stars. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that was born instantly at the top tier of power already. Slaanesh is like someone winning the lottery whereas the others "earned" their way gradually. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that has migrated over to feed off of humans, though retains a fondness for Eldar souls. The migration and adoption of new gods into pantheons is a phenomenon that RL history and religions have seen.

Ahh my mistake - i was pulling from Liber Chaotica. Warhammer Fantasy has a different order.

While i have no contention with the histiography you offered, i do have to wonder...

Do the Ruinous Powers also feed off all the Non-Main Races of the 40K universe? My mind is reaching back to the species like those in the Eisenhorn novels, etc. Although i don't recall a non-main race ever taking up a specific patron..... Chaos Undivided perhaps?

GrapeApe wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

I believe the "birth order" goes: Nurgle -> Khorne -> Tzeentch -> Slaanesh. Who knows when the %$2 Malal shows up in that mix.

The correct order is Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle then Slaanesh. This is from the original Realms of Chaos books, which I have. GW no longer owns the rights to Malal so I do not expect Malal to ever be mentioned by name ever again.

Khorne rose from growing large scale violence of humanity. Tzeentch as humanity became more complex in social organization (maybe the rise of the first city-states and civilizations?). Nurgle's birth saw plague sweep around the world. The Realms of Chaos stated that all 3 had been born and were awake by the Middle Ages.

Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, have been human gods just as Gork and Mork are Ork gods. They may have been small and weak originally on a galactic scale but they have grown in size as humanity itself has grown and spread across the stars. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that was born instantly at the top tier of power already. Slaanesh is like someone winning the lottery whereas the others "earned" their way gradually. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that has migrated over to feed off of humans, though retains a fondness for Eldar souls. The migration and adoption of new gods into pantheons is a phenomenon that RL history and religions have seen.

Ahh my mistake - i was pulling from Liber Chaotica. Warhammer Fantasy has a different order.

While i have no contention with the histiography you offered, i do have to wonder...

Do the Ruinous Powers also feed off all the Non-Main Races of the 40K universe? My mind is reaching back to the species like those in the Eisenhorn novels, etc. Although i don't recall a non-main race ever taking up a specific patron..... Chaos Undivided perhaps?

Yes they do feed off pretty much all life forms.

I think the Laer from 30k were dedicated to Slaanesh.

Humanity is one of the most widespread and dominant races in the 40K galaxy. The Chaos gods can get followers from other races, like the old Ork Stormboyz of Khorne, but these are miniscule in the grand scheme of things compared to humans. That is because humans have large numbers and are relatively easy to sway to worship the Chaos gods. Eldar are more tasty powerful souls but they are few and hard to corrupt towards active Chaos worship. Orks are numerous and have latent psychic potential but they are also hard to corrupt. Tau have their Greater Good ideology and possible pheromones, but even if they do become corrupted their dim souls are not worth much. Humanity is the happy medium.

As with Slaanesh, it's possible that the War in Heaven was that which started the formation of the Chaos Gods. In the Liber Chaotica books it mentions that during the War in Heaven Daemons were summoned to aid the Eldar against the Necrontyr and that it was a mistake to do so.

A line from Dawn of the C'tan is something that has always made me thought of the idea of Nurgle being given form

Kaelis Ra cannot truly die, for it is death incarnate. Raging at its defeat, its quintessence howled throughout space, entering every one of the Eldar race and cursing them with the terror of the grave. Thus it was that the seed of the Eldar's downfall was sown, and ultimately, the way of reincarnation was closed to them forever.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080406181835/http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/

GrapeApe wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Interesting. Where's that from?

So, still Khorne and Nurgle then it's mentioned that the War in Heaven stirred up the warp from a peaceful ocean into the roiling hot mess we've got now, presumably corrupting the once-peaceful native denizens as well...

It was mentioned in old background that Khorne and Nurgle were birthed in current form during the medieval age if I recall correctly (Khorne during a time of great fighting and Nurgle during the Black Death I think). That doesn't necessarily mean that humans caused their "births"; it could be that their awakening caused great conflict/disease/plotting. Also time not running normally in the Warp means they don't really have ages in the normal sense. Not sure what book it's from.

I believe the "birth order" goes: Nurgle -> Khorne -> Tzeentch -> Slaanesh. Who knows when the %$2 Malal shows up in that mix.

Since this spans 2nd to Current edition, the only theory i've seen tie it all together comes from GW Designer Andy Hoare.

The Materium has this itty bitty little Dimension we call "Time."

The Immaterium doesn't...or Does....depending.

So although we can pinpoint the birth of a Chaos God to a specific century, his/her/its effects can be felt prior to its creation.

Not sure how that jives though with the current War of Heaven fluff, since we have two...i guess.. "states" of the Immaterium, Pre-War in Heaven and Post...

I remember it's not that the gods come into existance as due to the fun of the warp they have always existed if they were ever going to exist, but that they woke up in the war on heaven.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
As with Slaanesh, it's possible that the War in Heaven was that which started the formation of the Chaos Gods. In the Liber Chaotica books it mentions that during the War in Heaven Daemons were summoned to aid the Eldar against the Necrontyr and that it was a mistake to do so.

A line from Dawn of the C'tan is something that has always made me thought of the idea of Nurgle being given form

Kaelis Ra cannot truly die, for it is death incarnate. Raging at its defeat, its quintessence howled throughout space, entering every one of the Eldar race and cursing them with the terror of the grave. Thus it was that the seed of the Eldar's downfall was sown, and ultimately, the way of reincarnation was closed to them forever.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080406181835/http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/

Yeah that sounds like a potential genesis point not so much born from a C'Tan (them being utterly anti-warp), but more from the effects the C'Tan wrought on the psychic population of the galaxy.

If we want to reconcile the older fluff of the Chaos Gods being born from humanity, and the slightly newer stuff regarding the War in Heaven then it could be that the Chaos Gods were birthed in their current forms during humanity's history (or perhaps even that that's where the human facet of these eldritch entities was born, which has come to be the dominant facet given humanity's spread throughout the galaxy).

 n0t_u wrote:

I remember it's not that the gods come into existance as due to the fun of the warp they have always existed if they were ever going to exist, but that they woke up in the war on heaven.

Yeah, by birth I suppose we mean 'awakening'.

Saying that, neither is probably a good explanation for the states of consciousness of the Chaos Gods. Perhaps it's more that these emotions have always existed, and it's only during these events that they coalesced into conscious warp entities.

Alternatively, it could be that the entities that are now the Chaos Gods have always existed, but it was during these periods that they were warped into their current forms. I still hold onto my headcanon that the extant Chaos Gods during the War in Heaven were benign warp entities which were twisted into their malevolent forms due to the terrible atrocities unleashed during that conflict


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080406181835/http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/

Also, God damn I miss the old Necron fluff. So ominous. So mysterious. So cool.

I love that the present day races (and thus us) know so little about them, and how all the information given to us is in the form of myths and/or in-universe speculation. I love that they're this primordial horror of eldar myth that's now awakening in the 41st millennium.

Compared to that masterpiece, the new fluff just seems so...unimaginative.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
not so much born from a C'Tan (them being utterly anti-warp)

I don't think I said they were. The story is about the Dawn of the C'tan, not the Born

But yes, I think it might be a point where Nurgle, perhaps Tzeentch and Khorne started to coalesce in the warp, stirred up by the War in Heaven and humankind was the catalyst that gave the Gods their true forms.

Amen on the fluff

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
not so much born from a C'Tan (them being utterly anti-warp)

I don't think I said they were. The story is about the Dawn of the C'tan, not the Born

But yes, I think it might be a point where Nurgle, perhaps Tzeentch and Khorne started to coalesce in the warp, stirred up by the War in Heaven and humankind was the catalyst that gave the Gods their true forms.

Amen on the fluff

Yeah I got that, it was just in case anyone else glossed through and assumed you were suggesting that Nurgle was born from the Nightbringer or some other tinfoil hat theory

Amen indeed

They're massive warp cannons. Maybe shaping the hull like a massive chaos icon makes it work better?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
not so much born from a C'Tan (them being utterly anti-warp)

I don't think I said they were. The story is about the Dawn of the C'tan, not the Born

But yes, I think it might be a point where Nurgle, perhaps Tzeentch and Khorne started to coalesce in the warp, stirred up by the War in Heaven and humankind was the catalyst that gave the Gods their true forms.

Amen on the fluff

Yeah I got that, it was just in case anyone else glossed through and assumed you were suggesting that Nurgle was born from the Nightbringer or some other tinfoil hat theory

Amen indeed

Nurgle technically was born from the night bringer, Nurgle is the embodiment of life, death, decay and all the mixed emotions that come from that, since it was the nightbringer that gave all species the fear of death, it makes logical sense that the end result of this fear, is part of Nurgle.

Well, I hope GW comes up with a cool reason as to why the BSFs have that shape.