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What if Deep Strike was only 1D6 scatter, but you always scatter (see the arrow on the "hit" symbol) but you could make a disordered charge afterwards?

What units would be better? (like Terminators)
What units would be broken? (like Daemons)

That would be a major buff. Some really good formations allow assaulting out of deepstrike, even without the 1D6 scatter.

It would make a lot of units more viable for deep striking rather than just ones that are focused on shooting. I feel like if you make deep striking assault allowed as the standard that the current scattering rules with 2D6" is fine since it makes it more risky.

While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

It honestly seems more fitting with the buffs to deep strike with assaulting upon arrival because it gives a more "risk vs reward" feel that deep strike should have. To be fair though, losing an entire unit to a 1 does suck, so maybe change it so instead of the entire unit dying, it loses D3 random models from the mishap and then is forced back into reserves?

 Grimskul wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

It honestly seems more fitting with the buffs to deep strike with assaulting upon arrival because it gives a more "risk vs reward" feel that deep strike should have. To be fair though, losing an entire unit to a 1 does suck, so maybe change it so instead of the entire unit dying, it loses D3 random models from the mishap and then is forced back into reserves?

Maybe make it d6 Strength 10 AP - hits or something instead? It stinks to automatically lose, for instance, your greater daemon because your scatter went awry.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

It honestly seems more fitting with the buffs to deep strike with assaulting upon arrival because it gives a more "risk vs reward" feel that deep strike should have. To be fair though, losing an entire unit to a 1 does suck, so maybe change it so instead of the entire unit dying, it loses D3 random models from the mishap and then is forced back into reserves?

Maybe make it d6 Strength 10 AP - hits or something instead? It stinks to automatically lose, for instance, your greater daemon because your scatter went awry.

Yeah, that's fair. Warp travel/teleporting/grav-chuting should be more dangerous though to those without some form of esoteric/technological protection so I think D3 S10 AP2 hits would be a good way of showing that. Monstrous Creatures can get a fair chunk taken out of them and you can lose some terminators, but definitely not the entire unit short of some pretty bad luck.

Well, you could lose a Daemon Prince that way.

Assuming you're deepstriking them. Why are you deepstriking them?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe make it d6 Strength 10 AP - hits or something instead? It stinks to automatically lose, for instance, your greater daemon because your scatter went awry.

The problem is what happens after that. For a single unit, that's usually pretty self-applicable, but for a Deep Striking Transport like a Drop Pod? What happens to the units inside. Wrecked Vehicle rules do not address what happens if they are Wrecked in Reserves.

 Charistoph wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe make it d6 Strength 10 AP - hits or something instead? It stinks to automatically lose, for instance, your greater daemon because your scatter went awry.

The problem is what happens after that. For a single unit, that's usually pretty self-applicable, but for a Deep Striking Transport like a Drop Pod? What happens to the units inside. Wrecked Vehicle rules do not address what happens if they are Wrecked in Reserves.

Maybe just use the damage result for when transport flyers also get wrecked with Crash and Burn?

Perhaps an easier solution would be if the deep striking unit, and any passengers, each suffers D3 unsaved Wounds/Hull Points? It would be quicker than resolving hits, works for both tough single models and squads of squishy ones.

If the vehicle is destroyed anything embarked just arrives as normal reserves; you can assume the vehicle just crash landed off the battlefield instead.

I think with only a single D6 scatter, the chances of mishap dramtically reduce. It even make it possible to find a spot where there is absolutely not risk of mishap at all.
So I would say leave the Mishap 1 result

Grimskul wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe make it d6 Strength 10 AP - hits or something instead? It stinks to automatically lose, for instance, your greater daemon because your scatter went awry.

The problem is what happens after that. For a single unit, that's usually pretty self-applicable, but for a Deep Striking Transport like a Drop Pod? What happens to the units inside. Wrecked Vehicle rules do not address what happens if they are Wrecked in Reserves.

Maybe just use the damage result for when transport flyers also get wrecked with Crash and Burn?

And then what happens to the unit if it survives the Transport's Wrecking?

Haravikk wrote:If the vehicle is destroyed anything embarked just arrives as normal reserves; you can assume the vehicle just crash landed off the battlefield instead.

Borrowing the Night Scythe's solution? Elegant and with some precedence. The Deep Striking Transport Crashes out of line of battle and the survivors limp on to the Battlefield if the Transport is Wrecked. I think this combined with "Crash and Burn" would be the best answer for this situation IF you are trying to avoid the outright destruction of both.

Obviously for cases of self-immobilizing Transports like Drop Pods, the Drop Pod is automatically Wrecked, with the Embarked unit being processed as above.

Perhaps rolling a scatter dice to determine which side of the board the transport crashes on.
But still, that would be weird because that would make scatter 1-2D6 or the-entire-board-length. Not exactly realistic*.

*that word sounds almost like a swear suddenly...

I like the OP proposed rule, but I wuold see it better only for some specific units and not extended to any unit arriving by deep strike. It shoul be something only for specialists.

 Galef wrote:
What if Deep Strike was only 1D6 scatter, but you always scatter (see the arrow on the "hit" symbol) but you could make a disordered charge afterwards?

What units would be better? (like Terminators)
What units would be broken? (like Daemons)

Bad idea. It pretty much says "at the start of the second turn Tau/IG immediately lose the game". Mass assaulting out of deep strike means that your own deployment and movement are barely relevant, assault units are going to land next to you and immediately charge. And having a disordered charge is actually a good thing for the assault army. You're still going to win combat, but you're less likely to wipe out the unit and leave yourself vulnerable to shooting during their turn. Then during their assault phase you finish off the unit and move directly into combat with the next one, never giving them a chance to shoot at you. The only real counter is mass interceptor pie plates, but I really don't think we need to reward Riptide spam any more. And even that counter just turns it into an equally anti-fun "at the start of the second turn the Tau player wins".

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

IMO the penalty should be even more severe. Making it a roll of a 1 instead of a 1-2 like it was in earlier editions was a mistake. Mishaps are 100% avoidable if you don't get too aggressive with your placement, and there should be a very real risk of getting so close to your target that you might not have a legal spot to place the unit. As it is there's very little penalty for deploying close-range shooting units in perfect position, even a bad scatter roll probably doesn't kill the unit. Make the unit dead on a 1-5 and miraculously misplaced to a "safe" location (opponent picks) on a 6. After all, your teleporter coordinates were inside a solid mountain, that should be a 100% kill fluff-wise.

And while we're at it, nerf the hell out of drop pods. No more risk-free deep strike that costs almost nothing and even gets special reserve rules.

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

That is the risk of with regards to the bonus of getting units in locations that can´t usually get there.

assaulting out of DS, very little scatter, and less severe mishaps. I'd accept all of this IF AA guns in general could shoot down drop pods and airborne units coming in. So pretty much you'd have to find a away to take out the AA before dropping you I win button.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the subject, how would everyone feel about getting rid of the 1 result on the deepstrike mishap table? Obviously it doesn't pair well with assaulting out of deepstrike, but it's kind of a feel-bad rule when it happens. When your opponent loses a unit to a silly mishap, essentially not getting to use X points of his army because bad luck, it doesn't really feel rewarding. It basically just makes me feel bad for them.

That is the risk of with regards to the bonus of getting units in locations that can´t usually get there.

Counterpoints:
* Many units that deepstrike have to get very close to be effective. Examples: warp talons (for blind), corsairs with jetpacks, especially with flamers, anything dark eldar that wants to shoot more than one splinter shot with its passengers, assault marines with meltas or flamers, terminators with heavy flamers, etc.
* Assault units (outside of a handful of formations that allow assaulting out of reserves) still have to endure a round of shooting and probably some overwatch before they get to do their thing.
* Deepstriking means you're clumped up after arriving most of the time making you susceptible to templates.
* Scattering means that even without a mishap, you have decent odds of scattering far enough away to be ineffective for at least one additional turn.
* Random reserves means that you're already risking not showing up to do anything until turn 4.


I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a downside of some variety to deepstriking. It's just that "Oh look, you put your unit in a reasonably safe spot but got unlucky and lost the whole unit before the end of their first movement phase" isn't a great rule in my opinion. It doesn't really reward decision making on either player's side (unless the decision is to deepstrike so far away as to likely be ineffective and defeat the purpose of deepstriking), it doesn't give the controlling player the chance to enjoy using the unit's abilities, it doesn't really reward the other player for taking actions to neutralize them (again, unless you count spreading out and basically forcing your opponent to deepstrike in a lacklustre location), and in my highly subjective opinion it simply isn't fun. It's just a chance of going, "Nope. You don't get to put that unit on the table this game."

Damaging the unit if it deepstrikes onto the enemy (representing flying too close to the enemy defenses without cover or whatever) still keeps the sense of risk versus reward. It just doesn't auto-remove a unit via bad luck. It's similar to the complaints about full strength D. You *probably* won't lose an entire unit to it, but it's not particularly enjoyable when it happens.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a downside of some variety to deepstriking.

I think that part of the problem with tweaking the Deep Strike rule is actually that there are so many ways to mitigate the downsides entirely. For example; I play a Deathwing army a lot, it's uncompetitive for a variety of reasons (but then I play casually), but it has a bunch of tools for avoid Deep Strike mishaps entirely, my favourites being Ravenwing and Drop Pods containing Dreadnoughts (though these are again not super competitive). Thematically I prefer the latter as I have a Dreadnought in Deathwing colours plus a Drop Pod to match, and all it has to do is keep the Drop Pod intact for a turn; with the size of the Drop Pod you get a pretty decent area to Deep Strike into; on the other hand the bikes are more flexible, as the Drop Pod gives the enemy a chance to relocate.

Anyway, point is that the biggest problem with Deep Strike Mishaps is that they penalise those units that can't easily be combo'd with something to prevent scatter. It gets tricky though; for my Deathwing I'm obviously paying quite a premium to eliminate scatter, so it'd be annoying if everyone got more reliable Deep Strike for free (especially as most of my units are over-priced as it is), but at the same time, I don't think it's fair that some armies have it easier than others. I haven't played Dark Eldar since their new codex (which I hate), but iirc they had no good Deep Strike scatter negation, which sucked pretty hard for an army that's all about emerging from the web-way in deadly raids, or at least any it had were trickier to use.