Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I have been using them for a while and there is no unit that I have gone into combat with that I have struggled to kill or that I have held my own and tied the combat.

A unit of 10 death cult assassins (150pts) and a priest is 175 pts. give the priest the relic that lets him always pass war hyms and that squad is 190 pts. I like to add my hq to this squad which is an inquisitor and I give the inquisitor rad grenades which give the enemy -1 toughness.

The priest gives the death cult assassins zealot so they are fearless and re-roll to hits in combat. as the death cult assassins are ws5 they usually hit on 3s and that is re-rolling due to the priest.

on the charge the death cult assassins have 4 attacks ap3 which with war hyms you can re-roll to wounds.

if the assassins are against an enemy which is superior then they can use the war hyms to re-roll their invun saves 5+.

so for a unit of 10 assassins a priest and an inquisitor with rad grenades we are looking at 230pts. on the charge that is 40 str 4 ap3 attacks that re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound and strike at initative 6 and the enemy is -1 toughness due to the inquisitors rad grenades.

is there a close combat unit that can handle this unit that is similer points?

A single dreadknight with no upgrades for 120 points.

50 conscripts with a priest for 175pts? They will usually either get to charge or will get to overwatch with 50 odd lasguns, both of which are good advantages.

Plus they get the reroll to hit and war hymns like the death cultists.

If they get the charge they should comfortably sweep the death cult (for the 175pts unit you mentioned), while taking around 22 casualties, dependingon whether or not both sets of war hymns go off.

If they get charged, they'd typically kill around 6 death cult for 30 casualties if they get to attack - they could be out of combat range by their initiative step. This doesn't account for overwatch though, which would kill approx 3-4 assassins depending on how close they are to rapid fire range...

A CC unit without grenades can't be the "best", in my view. A CC unit which moves as infantry is likewise not great.

I think context is important here. This isn't a **bad** combat unit, it hits hard enough to scare most things with T5 or less - but it's an Adepta Sororitas/ Castellans unit. These armies are already good at scything down T5 or less from distance, and you're going to sacrifice a shooty unit and a half to fit this thing in. You're cutting down your range enormously for the sake of running a combat unit. Seems a bit wasteful to me.

 DoomMouse wrote:
50 conscripts with a priest for 175pts? They will usually either get to charge or will get to overwatch with 50 odd lasguns, both of which are good advantages.

Plus they get the reroll to hit and war hymns like the death cultists.

If they get the charge they should comfortably sweep the death cult (for the 175pts unit you mentioned), while taking around 22 casualties, dependingon whether or not both sets of war hymns go off.

If they get charged, they'd typically kill around 6 death cult for 30 casualties if they get to attack - they could be out of combat range by their initiative step. This doesn't account for overwatch though, which would kill approx 3-4 assassins depending on how close they are to rapid fire range...

was just thinking 50 guys would mean an awful lot not being able to fight as they are out of distance to strike, especially seeing as how the death cults hit first.

if the death cults charge then it is 40 attacks needing 3s to hit and re-roll due to priest and with an inquisitor with rad grenades it is 2's to wound and then either the hymm of re-rolling to wound could be used or in this case re-rolling the invun would be used.

I think the death cults would win easily if they get the charge.

if the blob of 50 conscripts get the charge then the fact that the majority would be out of 2inches to strike would probably result in them losing too.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
50 conscripts with a priest for 175pts? They will usually either get to charge or will get to overwatch with 50 odd lasguns, both of which are good advantages.

Plus they get the reroll to hit and war hymns like the death cultists.

If they get the charge they should comfortably sweep the death cult (for the 175pts unit you mentioned), while taking around 22 casualties, dependingon whether or not both sets of war hymns go off.

If they get charged, they'd typically kill around 6 death cult for 30 casualties if they get to attack - they could be out of combat range by their initiative step. This doesn't account for overwatch though, which would kill approx 3-4 assassins depending on how close they are to rapid fire range...

was just thinking 50 guys would mean an awful lot not being able to fight as they are out of distance to strike, especially seeing as how the death cults hit first.

if the death cults charge then it is 40 attacks needing 3s to hit and re-roll due to priest and with an inquisitor with rad grenades it is 2's to wound and then either the hymm of re-rolling to wound could be used or in this case re-rolling the invun would be used.

I think the death cults would win easily if they get the charge.

if the blob of 50 conscripts get the charge then the fact that the majority would be out of 2inches to strike would probably result in them losing too.

Why you would charge though I don't understand at that range even without FRFSRF you can deal out about 10 wounds to them, killing the squad outright apart from the priest and inquisitor.

 HANZERtank wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
50 conscripts with a priest for 175pts? They will usually either get to charge or will get to overwatch with 50 odd lasguns, both of which are good advantages.

Plus they get the reroll to hit and war hymns like the death cultists.

If they get the charge they should comfortably sweep the death cult (for the 175pts unit you mentioned), while taking around 22 casualties, dependingon whether or not both sets of war hymns go off.

If they get charged, they'd typically kill around 6 death cult for 30 casualties if they get to attack - they could be out of combat range by their initiative step. This doesn't account for overwatch though, which would kill approx 3-4 assassins depending on how close they are to rapid fire range...

was just thinking 50 guys would mean an awful lot not being able to fight as they are out of distance to strike, especially seeing as how the death cults hit first.

if the death cults charge then it is 40 attacks needing 3s to hit and re-roll due to priest and with an inquisitor with rad grenades it is 2's to wound and then either the hymm of re-rolling to wound could be used or in this case re-rolling the invun would be used.

I think the death cults would win easily if they get the charge.

if the blob of 50 conscripts get the charge then the fact that the majority would be out of 2inches to strike would probably result in them losing too.

Why you would charge though I don't understand at that range even without FRFSRF you can deal out about 10 wounds to them, killing the squad outright apart from the priest and inquisitor.

maybe you can only see one model out of the unit who knows but the point of this scenario was about combat not about shooting

But you can't ignore shooting-that's a core part of the game.

They're not bad-but they certainly ain't the best.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But you can't ignore shooting-that's a core part of the game.

They're not bad-but they certainly ain't the best.

I'm not saying ignore shooting I'm saying what is the best unit IN close combat therefore shooting is irrelevant to the point I'm asking.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But you can't ignore shooting-that's a core part of the game.

They're not bad-but they certainly ain't the best.

I'm not saying ignore shooting I'm saying what is the best unit IN close combat therefore shooting is irrelevant to the point I'm asking.

Well, to be in close combat, they have to get there. With a 6" move, and a 3.5" run, they won't get there with anything that matters.

Edit: 5 Wulfen, naked, have between 20 and 25 attacks on the first round, at S5. They're 150 points, so hell, let's give THEM a Priest.

If the Wulfen Charge (likely, since they can run and charge, and can reroll charge distances) they get 25 attacks, hitting on 4s, rerolling, for 18.75 hits. Wounding on 2s, rerolling due to War Hymns, is 18.23 wounds. With a 5++ rerollable, they kill 8.1 assassins. This happens no matter how many die, due to Death Frenzy. The assassins, at the I6 step, have 3 attacks each, for 30 attacks, hitting on 3s, rerolling, for 26.67. Wounding on 4s, not rerolling (Hymns were used on saves) for 13.34 wounds. With a 5+ FNP, they do 8.89 wounds. Making them slightly better than Wulfen, in Close Combat, ignoring the many other buffs Wulfen have.

If the Assassins charge, they're striking at I1, since the Wulfen are probably in terrain. So the Wulfen get 20 attacks, hitting on 4s, rerolling, for 15 hits. Wounding on 2s, rerolling due to Hymns, is 14.58 wounds. With a 5++ rerollable, they kill 6.48 assassins. The assassins then strike at I1, 4 attacks each, for 40 attacks, hitting on 3s, rerolling, for 35.56 hits. 17.78 wound, and 11.85 go through the FNP. Killing all the Wulfen. But the Wulfen then strike again, since they died, killing another 6.48 assassins, or the whole squad.

And that's the thing-they're slow, they lack grenades, and they're only S4 AP3. They'd be locked forever against an Armoured Sentinel, for instance.

 JNAProductions wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But you can't ignore shooting-that's a core part of the game.

They're not bad-but they certainly ain't the best.

I'm not saying ignore shooting I'm saying what is the best unit IN close combat therefore shooting is irrelevant to the point I'm asking.

Well, to be in close combat, they have to get there. With a 6" move, and a 3.5" run, they won't get there with anything that matters.

Good for you for having that opinion but its not something I'm asking about, I'm not asking which unit stands the best chance of making it into combat. I am asking which unit when IN combat will perform the best for their points

champagne_socialist wrote:
Good for you for having that opinion but its not something I'm asking about, I'm not asking which unit stands the best chance of making it into combat. I am asking which unit when IN combat will perform the best for their points

Okay, then I have a question-what's the point? What's the point of measuring a unit in a total vacuum, without regards for how they'll actually play?

Also, I challenge this squad to fight an Armored Sentinel.

 JNAProductions wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
Good for you for having that opinion but its not something I'm asking about, I'm not asking which unit stands the best chance of making it into combat. I am asking which unit when IN combat will perform the best for their points

Okay, then I have a question-what's the point? What's the point of measuring a unit in a total vacuum, without regards for how they'll actually play?

Also, I challenge this squad to fight an Armored Sentinel.

is an armoured sentinel armour 12?

Your missing the point raised above though.

While you want to ignore shooting (which is fine) you can't ignore over watch.
That's a part of your combat and you have no way of getting into CC without being shot at.

Saying "ignore this and ignore that" is fine, you can twist a situation to hand the advantage to the assassins as much as you like.
They still aren't amazing.


You will lose a few to overwatch no matter what, more so against Tau.
If your charging through terrain your screwed again.


So all in all they are good, but not amazing as it's situational as to what they can charge.
As soon as they meet a walker they are screwed.

Units like wulfen and TWC on the other hand, they are amazing due to being able to work in almost all situations.

 Jackal wrote:
Your missing the point raised above though.

While you want to ignore shooting (which is fine) you can't ignore over watch.
That's a part of your combat and you have no way of getting into CC without being shot at.

Saying "ignore this and ignore that" is fine, you can twist a situation to hand the advantage to the assassins as much as you like.
They still aren't amazing.


You will lose a few to overwatch no matter what, more so against Tau.
If your charging through terrain your screwed again.


So all in all they are good, but not amazing as it's situational as to what they can charge.
As soon as they meet a walker they are screwed.

Units like wulfen and TWC on the other hand, they are amazing due to being able to work in almost all situations.

I'm not missing any point because I just want to discuss the units effectiveness in combat. feel free to make a thread discussing which unit is the best at getting into combat or avoiding overwatch if you want no one is stopping you

You charge 50 Conscripts. They shoot around 60 lasgun shots at you. (Let's say 20 are in rapid fire, 20 in range but not rapid fire, and 10 are out.) That's 10 hits, 5 wounds, and about 2 dead assassins. You then make it into combat, with (40-8) 32 attacks, hitting on 3s, rerolling. 28.44 hits. That's 18.96 wounds (25.28 with rerolls). That leaves 31 (25) left alive. They strike back, hitting on 4s, rerolling, for 15.5 (12.5) hits, and wounding on 4s, rerolling due to War Hymns, for 7.75 (6.25) wounds. You have a 5++ rerollable (not rerollable) for 3.44 (4.17) more dead. You have lost about 5.5 (6) assassins. They lost around 25 conscripts. You're losing out here, and you got the charge, without terrain.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You charge 50 Conscripts. They shoot around 60 lasgun shots at you. (Let's say 20 are in rapid fire, 20 in range but not rapid fire, and 10 are out.) That's 10 hits, 5 wounds, and about 2 dead assassins. You then make it into combat, with (40-8) 32 attacks, hitting on 3s, rerolling. 28.44 hits. That's 18.96 wounds (25.28 with rerolls). That leaves 31 (25) left alive. They strike back, hitting on 4s, rerolling, for 15.5 (12.5) hits, and wounding on 4s, rerolling due to War Hymns, for 7.75 (6.25) wounds. You have a 5++ rerollable (not rerollable) for 3.44 (4.17) more dead. You have lost about 5.5 (6) assassins. They lost around 25 conscripts. You're losing out here, and you got the charge, without terrain.

I wouldn't include overwatch because it depends so much on LOS. I always bring a LR redeemer so if I was charging conscripts I would put the LR in such a way to block the LOS of most of the conscripts so they cant overwatch.

also I am wounding on 2's not 3's due to the rad grenades which give -1 toughness so its str4 v toughness 2. and my inquisitor attacks before the conscripts for 5 attacks on the charge.

Right, except now that squad is even MORE expensive. 150 for 10 DCA, 25 for Priest, 40 for the Inquisitor if he's naked except for Rad. So that's 215 points. Land Raider Redeemer is another 240, stock, for 455 points.

How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

champagne_socialist wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
Good for you for having that opinion but its not something I'm asking about, I'm not asking which unit stands the best chance of making it into combat. I am asking which unit when IN combat will perform the best for their points

Okay, then I have a question-what's the point? What's the point of measuring a unit in a total vacuum, without regards for how they'll actually play?

Also, I challenge this squad to fight an Armored Sentinel.

is an armoured sentinel armour 12?

a dreadnought or a sentinel would cause problems because they are armour 12 to my str 4 but because I have a priest he has war hyms so he would be str 6 armourbane and the inquisitor has krak grenades which are str 6.

but anything with armour 11+ would cause any unit issues which is mainly str 4


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, except now that squad is even MORE expensive. 150 for 10 DCA, 25 for Priest, 40 for the Inquisitor if he's naked except for Rad. So that's 215 points. Land Raider Redeemer is another 240, stock, for 455 points.

How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

the LR is not part of the squad, I always take a LR redeemer whether I take death cult assassins or not.

Librarian Dreadnought challenges out your priest. If you brought an inquisitor, you have 2 attacks (3 on the charge) hitting on 4s, rerolling, to try to punch through AV 13. Once the Inquisitor is dead, though, the next challenge goes to the priest.

You have a .75 chance of hitting with each attack, a .1666 chance of glancing, and a .4167 chance of penning. Each pen has a .1667 chance of exploding it.

That's an 8% chance of killing it via HP, and a 14.8% chance of killing it via an Explodes. There is some overlap between them, so let's call it a 21% chance of killing the Dreadnought.

If you fail, your squad loses.

 JNAProductions wrote:


How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

well number of saves being forced on them would make them fail. they have 2 attacks and hit me on 4s wound me on 2s and I have a 5+ re-rollable and I have 3 attacks hit them on 3s re-rollable and wound them on 3s (rad grenades) and they have a 2+ save.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Librarian Dreadnought challenges out your priest. If you brought an inquisitor, you have 2 attacks (3 on the charge) hitting on 4s, rerolling, to try to punch through AV 13. Once the Inquisitor is dead, though, the next challenge goes to the priest.

You have a .75 chance of hitting with each attack, a .1666 chance of glancing, and a .4167 chance of penning. Each pen has a .1667 chance of exploding it.

That's an 8% chance of killing it via HP, and a 14.8% chance of killing it via an Explodes. There is some overlap between them, so let's call it a 21% chance of killing the Dreadnought.

If you fail, your squad loses.

why would I accept the challenge lol I would just keep doing the war hymm of re-rolling my invun saves and lock the librariad dreadnought in combat for the rest f the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, except now that squad is even MORE expensive. 150 for 10 DCA, 25 for Priest, 40 for the Inquisitor if he's naked except for Rad. So that's 215 points. Land Raider Redeemer is another 240, stock, for 455 points.

How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

the LR is not part of the squad, I always take a LR redeemer whether I take death cult assassins or not.

Yeah - in my conscript scenario I wasn't including the rad inquisitor as it costs 40pts more...

If we're going pure combat we can ignore the overwatch I suppsoe but I see no reason to spread out my conscripts - they may as well all be in base to base if they're not taking shooting

I think the main difference is that the conscripts wipe out the DCAs if they charge, and it's questionable whether they do if the DCAs get the charge.

Do the math. 5 Termis put out 10 shots, about 2 hits, around 1 wound, maybe kill an assassin in overwatch. But, in CC, they only put out 40 attacks, hitting on 3s rerolling, for 35.56 hits, 23.7 wounds, about 4 dead terminators.

Yeah, okay, they can beat Termis. Termis suck.

What about the Wulfen? You've got one squad to deal with, since apparently you aren't counting the Redeemer's cost, but they'ave got 10 attacks if you charge them. That's 5 hits, for 4.17 wounds, and about 2 dead assassins. The assassins, meanwhile, only kill about 2 and a half Wulfen.

Next round, the Assassins strike with only 8*3 24 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 16 hits, wounding on 4s, for 8 wounds, for about 1.78 wounds to the Wulfen. That'll kill one more, usually, leaving two alive. The three Wulfen that were alive at the start of combat put out 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, and 1.67 dead assassins.

Okay, they can also beat Wulfen, if they get the charge, and don't charge through terrain, and have a Priest who never fails his hymns, and have an Inquisitor with Rad Grenades. Right.

Daemon Prince? Let's give him a Plague Flail and a Balesword. That's a lot less than my Princes usually run with, but I won't factor in psychic powers. (Which can include Iron Arm.) 6 attacks, hitting on 3s, 4hits. Wounding on 2s, rerolling, 3.89 wounds, for 1.73 dead assassins. The reamaining 8 assassins put out 32 attacks, hitting on 4s rerolling, for 24 hits, wounding on 4s, for 12 wounds, with a 5+ save. So they can also kill a Prince, with no psychic powers.

The issue is, they can catch Terminators. They can maybe catch Wulfen. They will NOT catch a Prince that doesn't want to be caught-he has a 12" move, and fly if need be. The math does show that DCA are damn good, point for point, in Close Combat, but there are a million other factors for why they're not actually that good.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, except now that squad is even MORE expensive. 150 for 10 DCA, 25 for Priest, 40 for the Inquisitor if he's naked except for Rad. So that's 215 points. Land Raider Redeemer is another 240, stock, for 455 points.

How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

the LR is not part of the squad, I always take a LR redeemer whether I take death cult assassins or not.

I always bring a full squad of conscripts with priest anyway, so now you have to deal with blocking of los from two massive units and kill your way through twice as much. We can play this game all day unil we both have full army lists.

.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, except now that squad is even MORE expensive. 150 for 10 DCA, 25 for Priest, 40 for the Inquisitor if he's naked except for Rad. So that's 215 points. Land Raider Redeemer is another 240, stock, for 455 points.

How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

the LR is not part of the squad, I always take a LR redeemer whether I take death cult assassins or not.

I always bring a full squad of conscripts with priest anyway, so now you have to deal with blocking of los from two massive units and kill your way through twice as much. We can play this game all day unil we both have full army lists.

.

No idea what you are talking about, kill through twice as much? please explain.

and yes anyone can play the game of adding extra stuff which is why I said at the beginning i want to discuss the units v units as if they were in combat because everything else such as shooting and overwatch and deployment and los blocking and cover etc is so variable.

 HANZERtank wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, except now that squad is even MORE expensive. 150 for 10 DCA, 25 for Priest, 40 for the Inquisitor if he's naked except for Rad. So that's 215 points. Land Raider Redeemer is another 240, stock, for 455 points.

How does it deal with, say, a squad of Terminators, and their 2+ armor save? Or 2 squads of TH/SS Wulfen?

Or a Daemon Prince?

the LR is not part of the squad, I always take a LR redeemer whether I take death cult assassins or not.

I always bring a full squad of conscripts with priest anyway, so now you have to deal with blocking of los from two massive units and kill your way through twice as much. We can play this game all day unil we both have full army lists.

.

No idea what you are talking about, kill through twice as much? please explain.

and yes anyone can play the game of adding extra stuff which is why I said at the beginning i want to discuss the units v units as if they were in combat because everything else such as shooting and overwatch and deployment and los blocking and cover etc is so variable.

You were saying how you always bring your land raider along, and how you would use it to block los and get closer to combat.
I said I always bring a 50 man conscript squad, so I get that in addition to the other 50 man conscript squad I'm bringing to fight your DCA. Now you have to kill 102 models and we're ignoring shooting so I can get a lot of those in base contact to fight you.

It will make a huge difference. Because I can play the game of attrition against you. I don't have to get all in base contact with you, I just have to keep grinding away with my fearless blob.

Heck I can include an Inquisitior into my 50 man blob with a priest and give him rad grenades and psykotroke grenades. Equal cost to you with a chance of getting you down to initiative 1 and 1 attack, or make you hit yourself, or make you weapon skill 1.

You want to compare 1 thing purely in a bubble with no additions.
You then proceed to add a LR to the unit and state you always take one.

That is completely irrelevant as you talking about the unit.
If it's not part of the unit it's not in.

If it is part of the unit then add the points.




As I said earlier, twisting it as much as possible to the units advantage won't help.
If your going to allow and disallow stuff at a whim then you have created a pointless discussion where in your mind, your answer is the only correct one.



Asking people to pick a unit of the same value to compete then stacking another 250 on your unit (that doesn't count) is no good.

 Jackal wrote:
You want to compare 1 thing purely in a bubble with no additions.
You then proceed to add a LR to the unit and state you always take one.

That is completely irrelevant as you talking about the unit.
If it's not part of the unit it's not in.

If it is part of the unit then add the points.




As I said earlier, twisting it as much as possible to the units advantage won't help.
If your going to allow and disallow stuff at a whim then you have created a pointless discussion where in your mind, your answer is the only correct one.



Asking people to pick a unit of the same value to compete then stacking another 250 on your unit (that doesn't count) is no good.

I added the LR to counter your argument that you need to work out overwatch or shooting in the shoorting phase so I added a LR to highlight why I just want to compare combat v combat


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HANZERtank wrote:
It will make a huge difference. Because I can play the game of attrition against you. I don't have to get all in base contact with you, I just have to keep grinding away with my fearless blob.

Heck I can include an Inquisitior into my 50 man blob with a priest and give him rad grenades and psykotroke grenades. Equal cost to you with a chance of getting you down to initiative 1 and 1 attack, or make you hit yourself, or make you weapon skill 1.

be honest with yourself you will never fit 2 conscript squads into combat with a unit of 10 men. if I assault you then you have 1 unit in base and with the pile in at initative step and end of combat pile in you will wrap around blocking you from being able to get any more units in base with me to join the combat and if you charge me then the first conscript squad you assault me with would block your other squad from being able to assault in