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We've been waiting for the return of a Primarch for a VERY long time, with constant speculation as to how it would happen and who it would be. While I've always known it was easy for GW to bring Guilliman back what with the whole stasis thing, for some reason I've never really believed he'd be the first. Maybe I underestimated GW's bias towards the ultramarines (dont get me wrong, I have nothing against the smurfs, but I do think GW gives them a bit too much glory and attention), but I always assumed they'd bring back the lion or russ first, and in my opinion that would have been better. I dont dislike papa smurf but to me his return just seems a bit boring, we could have had any of the others come back and it would have been so much cooler; imagine the dark angles learning that their Primarch had been with them all along, and now was back to fight alongside them again, or the Space Wolves finally being reunited with Russ, who is back from the eye of terror with a grudge. Instead, we just got a big smurf to lead the smaller smurfs and remind everyone the smurfs are great; it just seems a little bit too convenient. A misused opportunity imho, but I'd love to hear all your opinions of the return of a Primarch.

Sorry for being long-winded, and I dont mean to hate on the ultramarines or Guilliman, nor do I mean to complain (Hey, we do still have a loyal primarch back, and thats pretty darn cool!)

I think it'll shake up the 40k universe more than you give him credit for - the loyal Primarchs all fought for an Emperor who didn't want to be worshiped, didn't want people thinking he was a god - the Ultras trashed a world full of the Word Bearer's Emperor-worshiping churches in the lead up to the heresy (for which the Word Bearers retaliated with the attack at Calth). How is he going to see the Imperium now that they've basically turned a full 180 on that?

Is he going to start up Imperium Secundus again? (i.e. break away from the actual Imperium), war by Macragge against Terra? Or march up to the throne and pull the plug?

Roboute hanging out with Cypher is definitely going to be interesting when the Lion comes back, and I'm sure the Wolf won't be far from the action.

Personally, I was hoping for Corax.

But Guilliman is a figure that could, fluffwise, actually be a leader rather than just a killer.

IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

It's very cliche but I can't say I was surprised.

I actually don't mind all that much but I will say this, if he turns out to be stronger than Magnus on the table, I will be a bit salty because it wouldn't make fething sense for a just awakened Guiliman to be able to face off against a warp-powered Magnus.

I think exactly the same as you, OP, and the miniature is ugly.
The Lion would have been so much better, especially as we don't know if he was truly loyal.

Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

I like it.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

I agree. I find they also diminish the tactical nature of a skirmish game. Guilliman isn't going to be looking for a wall to crouch behind to avoid enemy fire. There's a lot more interesting tactical decisions to be made when the game is a some infantry squads with a couple tanks providing cover and supporting fire than when it's semi-invincible demi-gods walking up to the middle of the table to slug it out.

 Vankraken wrote:

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

Unkillable monstrous opponents are quite grim dark if you ask me ; )
They even touch the realm of lovecraftian nightmares.


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I dislike the Guilliman model. It looks oddly shaped and too big.
The return of named hero hammer is cool. It fits the fluff and makes for epic games. However I would like them to be not automatic included into every game I play.

It might even be good to exclude them from most games like the WFb players used to do with named characters. However this makes owning these models a bit dull / anticlimactic.

I am rather disappointed they chose him out of all the viable candidates they could have. Dorm returning would have been much more dramatic, the lion would have been amazing, Russ or khan would have been very interesting after all that time in the warp, vulkan would have been awesome! I just think it's dumb that they went with papa smurf instead of ANY other one, his chapter gets too much credit for everything and are way too "poster-boyish" to my tastes anyway. Plus the model looks NOTHING like how I remember him being described.
Overall disappointed in gw's decision.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

This. It's like they want to change it to Warmachine40k.

Not surprised it's big boy blue though. Been hinted that he would return since 2nd ed at least, long before every other loyalist got retconned to `maybe he's alive ooooooh very mystery`.

It further dilutes the threat of Chaos, a threat that feels non-existent as is. The problem is that going forward the story is going to go like this.

A Daemon Primarch appears. Oh no! We're doomed!
The Daemon Primarch's Legion threatens to finally overwhelm XYZ objective.
Gasp! A Loyalist Primarch has returned! He turns the tide and scores a great victory when all seems lost, hurrah!
Repeat until we hit Terra and then Cherkov's Gunman fires and Chaos gets pushed back to the Eye. Reset the clock.

Going forward, the setting is going to be utterly dominated by the Primarchs, not the factions themselves. I can see the Xenos and to a lesser degree Chaos being sidelined in an effort to turn 40k into something resembling The Avengers in a desperate attempt to go "y-you like Space Marines right? h-here's the Horus Heresy! Only it's in the 42nd Millenium!" Black Library will focus almost exclusively on the Primarch's current activities and put out new series' detailing what they got up to whilst they were away.

Welcome to HeroHammer 40,000... well, PrimarchHammer 40,000.

I thin he's going to be pissed at all the revelations that have come about over the past 9,000 or so years. Not just at what the Empire has become, but the overwhelming evidence of just how wrong the Emperor was about so many things. Given his status as Primarch, that puts him in control of the Empire, which I doubt the Highlords are really going to like either. So this could easily cause the Empire to fracture under the weight of so many conflicting interests.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Personally, I was hoping for Corax.

But Guilliman is a figure that could, fluffwise, actually be a leader rather than just a killer.

Agreed - it could be a much more interesting move by Gw for the background than "RAAAH Leman Russ comes back to fight Magnus" - yawn.

RG shoud be someone who can actually try and reform elements of the Imperium and he does have the authority to do it. How he will cope with the massive changes to everythig he fought for should be interesting.

My first choice, Vulkan was apparently not much use when he last turned up - I can;t get excited about naythig to do with the Lion since I read the HH books about him. Meh about Cypher

More 30k crap being shoveled unnecessarily in to much superior 40k.

Ah, ok Melissa... that's why gw is hastily moving to 8th due to declined sales, imbalance, and event attendance. On the other hand, they have brought forth plastic 30k stuff due to mass increase on 30k sales and event attendance.

So I think your crap and superior comment can be reversed if you look at facts and financial reports vs opinion.

Worst mistake of GW.

Primarchs were figures of myth, something that existed in the fluff and created a sense of past epicness. Now, they're simply models on the table. I could have accepted it if it was only for 30k, but for 40k ? Nah. I'll just stick to 30k from now on.

OH NO, SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET DOESN'T LIKE MELISSIA'S OPINIONS, BETTER GET ANGRY AND SNARKY ABOUT IT, STAT!

I don't care that it's more financially successful? There's a lot more than the fluff that influences sales-- 7th edition has been much derided as a massive messs when it comes to rules and unbalanced releases, for example, and even then what I've read suggests they've not been doing all that bad. But regardless, the fluff of 40k remains massively superior to that of 30k. The 30k books essentially ruined the Horus Heresy, turning it from awesome legends in to mundane banalities.

This is literally the worst thing that has ever happened to 40K. Not joking.

While I enjoy the idea of a storyline moving forward...I think Primarchs was a poor decision. Warhammer fluff has often been predicated on mystery and tales of the "great past" etc. Putting it into an ugly plastic model kinda spoils that. However, Ultramarines are boring milquetoast so I suppose if you had to have one show up - Rowboat is as good as any.

 Crimson wrote:
This is literally the worst thing that has ever happened to 40K. Not joking.

Meh he at leasts has a point cost ; )


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 Melissia wrote:
More 30k crap being shoveled unnecessarily in to much superior 40k.

Allright I'll bite.
How is the 40k game superior to the 30k game.

Personally I'm not a terribly huge fan of bringing characters like Primarch's into 40k. They were always background figures, somewhat mysterious and unknown in many ways, shrouded in legend and myth.

Making them tabletop units with rules and an actual model and everything takes a lot of that away, and detracts from the characters the 40k setting has been based around forever. It feels like GW has run out of ideas and is reaching for just anything to push out for another monthly release. It also gets into character units that are just so ridiculously powerful that their use seems...obscene, even if the rules aren't necessarily OP.

I have much the same feeling toward the HH stuff in general, but at least there it's in a timeline centered around the actions of these figures, bringing them back for 40k feels...hamfisted.

Now, in some ways, I would not necessarily have been opposed to a 40k "end times" and story reboot where some of these characters could be reintroduced like Age of Sigmar, which would make more sense (albeit handled differently than GW did AoS), but for normal 40k I'm just not a fan.

GW really seems to have just lost its ability to create truly interesting new stuff, with no Priestly or Chambers or the like it really feels like GW is just coasting on material written decades ago and doesn't have the originality to create something truly without it being painfully product oriented or a reimagining of older eras.

 oldzoggy wrote:
How is the 40k game superior to the 30k game.

Already answered:

 Melissia wrote:
But regardless, the fluff of 40k remains massively superior to that of 30k. The 30k books essentially ruined the Horus Heresy, turning it from awesome legends in to mundane banalities.

You seem quite insistent that I answer as if I was arguing about game rules, even though I gave absolutely no indication that I was.

Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...

Not only do I not mind the reintroduction of Primarchs into activity (with the note that some Daemon Primarchs were already active - Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus have all made their appearances in fluff between their ascension and the 41st millenium), I'm excited for it.

I'm intrigued by where the story will go, and what new balances of power will result. I want to see how they resolve (or avoid resolving) plot points like Cypher's blade, RB's penchant for making Imperiums within Imperiums ("Yo, dawg..."), the loyalty of [some of] the Fallen, etc.

I may well not like specific changes in the lore, but then, that's happened before (Hello there, Newcrons! Greetings, seeming-removal-of-FTL for Tau!), and I've found it far more pleasant, overall, to adapt to the change rather than piss into the winds thereof.

Not everyone has to be as excited about change or the threat of change as I am, though. I can understand that change is scary, and the comfortable stagnancy of the 40k universe can be warm with familiarity.

After all, if you're right, you'll have plenty of people to play with who are willing to ignore changes that are universally disliked. If the existing WH40k universe is more your cuppa, then ignore the fluff you don't like when you're forging your own narrative, or simply time your fluff to before these events happen - Isn't the call, whenever someone dares suggest that the story/setting get advanced, that there's 10k years of grim, dark warfare to explore? Take your own advice, and explore the old while ignoring the new.

 mrhappyface wrote:
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

with all due respect we dunno eneugh about the return of Gulliman to say one way or another, it's likey Cawl doesn't do it single handedly. as apparently Xenos influance was involved as well. so most likely it was a matter of eldar technology likely provided the missing puzzle piece.

Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman


edit: as an aside, I've actually paused building a \ultramarine army, as I wanna see what new options rising storm 3'll give me.

BrianDavion wrote:

Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman

I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.

Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...

Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.

 Melissia wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...

Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.

Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.