Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...

Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.

Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.

Or rather, people seem to need SOMETHING to attack when they find it infuriating that other people disagree with them. Respond to peoples' actual posts, not a straw representation of their posts.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman

I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.

Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.

you're proably right about that, still an intreasting theory on the matter, the idea that "only now would such a thing have been effective"

 Melissia wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...

Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.

Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.

Or rather, people seem to need SOMETHING to attack when they find it infuriating that other people disagree with them. Respond to peoples' actual posts, not a straw representation of their posts.

Infuriating? Nah. Mildly amusing. (Wouldn't that be a straw representation of MY post? Heh.)

But we're off topic. Let's return to initial opinions on extremely limited revelations of impending changes to the lore!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman

I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.

Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.

you're proably right about that, still an intreasting theory on the matter, the idea that "only now would such a thing have been effective"

It's certainly possible that Ynnead's creation, even as flawed and incomplete as it is, could have Slaanesh slightly distracted... but I've always understood Guilliman's wound to be severe based on the weapon used, rather than on the patron of the weapon's wielder. I'm excited to learn more as things progress.

As others have already said, I believe characters such as primarchs belong to the background, shrouded in a healthy amount of mystery after ten thousand years. They certainly have no business at all on top of a table for a 40k game. Of course, regarding that last sentence, I have similar views about superheavy vehicles, gargantuan creatures and the like. They were fine as display pieces, or as playable units in a different game with a different scale (Epic).

That said, primarchs in a 40k game was going to happen sooner or later. For years (at least since late 5th edition) GW has been pushing forward a narrative centered on the deeds of heroic superheroes. It's been a long time since the good old days of "this galaxy is just too damn huge and in the bigger picture nobody cares if you live or die". Now it's just about da spessss mehreeeens blowing up stuff with their movie bolters and solving problems by punching them in the face, in the context of a massive competition to be the most bAd_aSS eVaR.

While 40k has always been about rule of cool, it worked really well as a grimdark, ironic and dark-humorous setting. All subtetly and restraint went down the gutter a long time ago, sadly. We're at a point in which it's difficult to tell what's worse, the state of the rules or the background additions and changes over the last ten years.

 Korinov wrote:
Now it's just about da spessss mehreeeens blowing up stuff with their movie bolters and solving problems by punching them in the face, in the context of a massive competition to be the most bAd_aSS eVaR.

Pretty much. And the addition of the primarchs is only going to make this trend worse. Especially since GW is going to likely do one-upsmanship amongst the released primarchs themselves, with each new one being more badass than the last.

On a related note, that's pretty much how I summarize 90% of the Horus Heresy material really.

He might paint up as a pretty cool piece of terrain.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...

Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.

Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.

Or rather, people seem to need SOMETHING to attack when they find it infuriating that other people disagree with them. Respond to peoples' actual posts, not a straw representation of their posts.

Infuriating? Nah. Mildly amusing. (Wouldn't that be a straw representation of MY post? Heh.)

But we're off topic. Let's return to initial opinions on extremely limited revelations of impending changes to the lore!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman

I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.

Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.

you're proably right about that, still an intreasting theory on the matter, the idea that "only now would such a thing have been effective"

It's certainly possible that Ynnead's creation, even as flawed and incomplete as it is, could have Slaanesh slightly distracted... but I've always understood Guilliman's wound to be severe based on the weapon used, rather than on the patron of the weapon's wielder. I'm excited to learn more as things progress.

yeah the thing about the wound it it was inflicted by fulgrim, a deamon prince of slaanish. (iirc a poisoned blade) it sounds like the poison was the big issue. if perhaps due to slaanish being distracted amnifestations of slaanish in the galaxy are weakened. it's possiable the poison it.

I just kinda like that pet theory because it neatly explains ".. ok why now?"

Couldn't be happier, Geedubs chose the best primach to come back. The only primarch capable of doing things outside of warfare, I can't wait to see his rules, probably gonna give a feth ton of army wide benefits while being a tough as nails beat stick.

 earlofburger wrote:
Couldn't be happier, Geedubs chose the best primach to come back. The only primarch capable of doing things outside of warfare, I can't wait to see his rules, probably gonna give a feth ton of army wide benefits while being a tough as nails beat stick.

I'm also happy as ultramarines got the short end of the stick with AOD, no unique detachments, no unique relics, hopefully the book'll rectify that with some ultramar exclusive relics.

I'm also happy as ultramarines got the short end of the stick with AOD, no unique detachments, no unique relics, hopefully the book'll rectify that with some ultramar exclusive relics.

Yeah seriously, you'd think the Ultras would at least have a list of relics or warlord traits. A Ultramarine supplement is long overdue

I'm going to try to keep the bile down and avoid my less than favourable view ultramarines as much as possible here.

Well I'm not pleased with the release of rowboat. From a model perspective, he's fugly as sin. Looks like he got puked up by a confettii monster, then he decided to roll with it and say he looks faaaabuloussss. Meanwhile ultramarines behind his back snicker at the old timer in his armour aesthetics that are just sssoooo 9000 ssseasonss ago *hairflip* Yes, ultramari- sorry gotta stop myself there.

Okay, so we got what I personally consider a horrible model. On the table he's just goi g to be insane just because he's a primarchs and there's goi g to be no restriction on him- why would GW put a restriction on him? That would make people hesitate to buy him; if he's auto take they make more money, so yes, he'll be everywhere...at least in this edition; maybe geedubs shakes things up in 8th?

In the fluff. All I can say is that if the ecclesiarchy gets in line with him just because he's one of the emperors "sons" and there's no tension over the whole emperor is being worshipped thing and rowboat not rocki g the boat, I will be very disappointed. Just having everything be okay and move along now nothing to see here would be nothing short of lazy writing. Rowboats arrival and the arrival of any of the primarchs in fact should be a herald of the end times- not just the imperium physically, but also as an ideal and there is so much story telling potential there.

The Primarchs have always been the daftest thing about 40k for me, so I'm nonplussed by the Rowboat's return. That said, given GW's propensity for power creep of late it'll be amusing when the next Fall of Cadia comes out with a Tau commander capable of whupping the ol' Spiritual Liege in CC.

 earlofburger wrote:

I'm also happy as ultramarines got the short end of the stick with AOD, no unique detachments, no unique relics, hopefully the book'll rectify that with some ultramar exclusive relics.

Yeah seriously, you'd think the Ultras would at least have a list of relics or warlord traits. A Ultramarine supplement is long overdue

I can understand why they got missed, being bog standard and all, but I think unique relics at least would be nice. the ultramarines have a rich history and all, with lots of oppertunities for relics specific to the chapter

Well the Primarch's were going to come back either way because chaos has them and the imperium doesn't so they need to even that fight.

To give the Imperium a chance at winning it needs reorganized and focused administratively.

That's Guillimans strong point so it makes the most sense for him to return first.

 husker98 wrote:
Well the Primarch's were going to come back either way because chaos has them and the imperium doesn't so they need to even that fight.

Chaos primarchs have existed for 10 000 years, Imperium never needed primarchs of their own to deal with them before. Bringing the daemon primarchs in the forefront without bringing out the loyalist equivalents would allow chaos to finally seem like an actual threat, but of course that cannot be allowed to happen...

I am liking this. While at first I didn't like the mini of Gulliman (spelling?) but just like most GW minis when we see them for the first time they don't look good, they tend to grow on you after a while.

Someone said here or was it in another thread that the 40K universe is always in balance. By that if one side gets the upper hand, something will happen to balance it eventually.

So if Gulliman balances everything then we are back to where we were before. Or if Gulliman tips the favour for the Imperium, what will bring the tide back? That is what is getting me excited now. It will even be more grimmer or darker and climatic.

But first. One thing at a time. Let's get our explanation first with the Darth Vader suit and it it's acceptable then we cried and whined for nothing. . Let's see what happens first before we cry the sky is falling.

I'm pretty luke warm about it. It does try to make something big, but I got to admit that it fails to exploit new area or give some light on underexploited area of 40K lore and style. It's a lot of more of the same. The first release was at least attempting to give back soem attention to Sisters and give some heroes to the Adeptus Mechanicus, two things that were lacking. More Space Marines hero (and one so big and important) feels like trying to burry your bolder, precedent move in more mundane stuff.

Corax would've suited this better IMHO. Him returning from the eye of terror with the sons of Titan and Cypher could've been Cyphers biggest secret. Then, set up a battle with a new Abaddon and Corax as the climax of FoC. No more smurfs!

I think this will be amazing for the fluff because it has such a Fall of Rome vibe going for it.

Guilliman isn't going to take the current state of the Empire well, and he's going to want to fix things. But the High Lords are unlikley to just kindly give up power and allow the original High Lord of Terra to resume his position in command of the Empire, and the Ecclesiarchy will likely proclaim him a daemon and fake when he tells them to knock it off with the Emperor worship. Which means that if Gulliman isn't able to remake the Empire in what he believes it should be, he's likely to do what he always has: lead by example.

Ultramar may not break off, but it will probably be effectively independent from the rest of the Imperium at that point. And unlike other 'independence' movements, this one will stick thanks to the backing of quite a few Space Marines. The Ultramarines may not re-coalesce into a Legion, but if even half its successor Chapters follow Gulliman then he's going to effectively have his Legion once more.

Will other Primarchs will start following suit once they reappear? Russ is gonna be *pissed* in so many ways, and all the remaining loyalist Primarchs know how far off base the Empire has gone, and will want to correct it.

And thus the Empire will be torn apart. Not by what it has always feared: the alien, the mutant, the heretic. But by what it does not fear and ward against - well meaning people who seek to make things better by imposing their vision, strongly shaped by their own experience with the Emperor in the glory days of the Empire, upon the ramshackle monstrosity that remains.

And as a result, the Empire will shatter and burn.

Personally?

I like it, and I like all three miniatures too. I'm looking forward to seeing what the story looks like and how it advances. I'm surprised it was Guilliman to be honest, as I was expecting either Russ, or possibly Dorn, or the Lion to lead the Loyalist Primarchs return. I'll clarify I am not surprised Guilliman was revived in 40k, but I am surprised he was the first loyalist primarch revealed.

Lastly, in reference to warlord traits and relics specifically.

I like the idea of unique warlord traits. I just wish you could choose them instead of them being random, or conversely, have a set pair of traits for each HQ choice in the codex to choose from. Say, two for Captains, two for Librarians, and two for Chaplains. Special characters (Marneus Calgar, for example) would still retain their 'set' warlord trait in the entry and perhaps make it a more powerful version of one of the two available to a Captain, however if you field a Captain you choose one or the other, depending on which one better suits the character. I feel like that would be a better system, myself.

Regarding Relics, I agree that there should be a list for Ultramarines, or at the very least a few additional ones beyond the 'vanilla' list that are only available if you field a space marine army with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics. With many other first founding chapters having their own relic lists, that would be a fair compromise I think. I just hope they address the balance discrepancies in some of the relic lists compared to others (across all factions, I mean).

That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.

-Red__Thirst-

for me UM relics don't even need to be powerful, as the core book relics are IMHO pretty powerful, chapter specific relics however can fill two roles, 1: something that can interact specificly with UM chapter tactics. 2: something that gives us insights etc into the history. might try writing my own relics for em in the rules proposals section just for funsies.

He's a power armored brick - just look at that area that's usually called "face".

First, I think it'd be really useful if people read the full background of Rise of The Primarch before bashing the background in Rise of The Primarch.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman is probably the best rounded - exemplary statesman when needed, exemplary warlord when needed.

Before the Heresy, he'd managed to forge the 500 Worlds of Ultramar into pretty much the Emperor's vision for humanity (peaceful, worlds terraformed into paradise etc), and a surprising amount of that was done before The Emperor found him.

In essence, he embodies everything The Emperor appeared to be aiming for with the Primarch programme.

Who better to hold up as a mirror to the rotting carcass that is The Imperium as we know it today?

I mean, think about it. A content, abundant society has relatively little to fear from Chaos. When there's no deprivation, there's no desperation. There's definitely roads in for Chaos even there, but the appeal is lessened.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean, think about it. A content, abundant society has relatively little to fear from Chaos. When there's no deprivation, there's no desperation. There's definitely roads in for Chaos even there, but the appeal is lessened.

You ever heard of these guys called Eldar?

Ah, now they had ennui to battle against, and a uniquely unsuited psyche for it.

Because they feel emotions far stronger than humans, and have a massively longer life span, they not only feel boredom more keenly, but are more exposed to it.

In the Imperium? Some can live ridiculous lifespans thanks to rejuveanat treatements, or in the case of Mechanicus, constant bionic tinkering. But most don't have that luxury.

With modern medicine, we can live a full, independent life into our 80's (unless our brain's give up/out) quite easily - and in the Imperium probably a good bit longer than that. But still nowhere near the Eldar life span. So the chances of a humanity getting that bored, and then debauched to stave off the ennui is massively reduced.

Yeah, you get bored - you get blammed. Chaos problem solved.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

This. I find all these superpowered characters frankly tedious.

The heroes of the Imperium should be the billions of low-level humans (space marines included) that face off daily against the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy, and through sheer grit and determination achieve victory (or don't, as the case may be).

It's a very relatable struggle, and genuinely feels very epic. A very compelling backdrop against which to tell your story.

Compare that to Mr Skipped-Leg-Day towering above everyone else with his flaming Emperor-sword. Despite everything about him being more, he feels considerably less epic. That's because 'epic' doesn't mean 'massive flaming sword'. Epic means 'little man struggles against cosmic terror, emerging victorious despite the odds'.

With that as a backdrop, I'm perfectly happy with Chaos having Daemon Primarchs and the Imperium not. It actually puts the struggle into the Imperium's fight.

Saying that, I was equally concerned about the Eldar Triumvirate, although for different reasons. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how they handled it. No forced merging of factions, plenty of doors open to do what you want with your armies. Yet to see how the actual story unfolds, but from the feel of it it actually adds to the setting, rather than detracting. Roll with the changes, as Unusual Suspect suggests

Unfortunately the release of Guilliman feels a step further than that, but I'm still reserving judgement until the actual story pans out. There's scope for some really interesting and unexpected things to happen, but if it's just 'Guilliman returns and kicks Chaos' ass!' then that will be very disappointing. They've just actually succeeded in making Chaos feel like an actual threat (destroying Cadia and Fenris). It'd be a shame if they threw that away.

Well, in that respect we have the surprise of Guilliman's resurrection - Abaddon couldn't have planned for that, especially as it seems Ynnead has some kind of hand in it.

So when an unplanned for military genius with absolute authority grabs the reins, of course you're going to take an absolute kicking straight off the bat - particularly as it seems Abaddon wouldn't tie himself up in Ultramar, but send a key lackey.

Now, what happens after that is very interesting to me. How does Abaddon react? We've already seen him regret a vainglorious moment at Cadia - will he resist, or does Guilliman represent too important a factor to Imperial Morale to leave be?

Concerned that they've just built Chaos up to be a credible threat and are now going to throw it all away in the Spiritual Lieging of all Spiritual Lieges.

I'm hopeful that they will bring more nuance to the fluff than the model suggests. The Eldar release was better than I'd thought.

Jury's still out.

Abaddon will finally ascend.