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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Concerned that they've just built Chaos up to be a credible threat and are now going to throw it all away in the Spiritual Lieging of all Spiritual Lieges.

I'm hopeful that they will bring more nuance to the fluff than the model suggests. The Eldar release was better than I'd thought.

Jury's still out.

And it can't help but be out until the book is in our collective sweaty mitts, and the word's thoroughly digested.

Me, reckon I'm going to pick it up and head to pub for a quiet drink and a dashed good read. Shall do that this Saturday as well. Because I can! Being a grown up rules!

I personally love it, and say it's about time. One of the most epic parts of the lore is finally making a tabletop appearance! In this new world of Imperial Knights, scat-bike spam, Wraithknights, crazy powerful formations, and allies everywhere, why NOT have Primarchs return? The fan base clearly wants them, GW clearly wants to make them, and people have been complaining for years about the story not advancing - well, now it's advancing. Looking forward to more Primarchs and other awesome models.

I'm excited about the return of Guilliman, but worried. I've already heard rumors of a battle on Terra coming soon. If and when that were to ever happen, it shouldn't happen for years. The reintroduction of a primarch in the 40k setting is massive. Everything in the imperium is about to change and GW should take the time to reflect that. If GW rushes it, its just going to ruin the setting and divide the community. I've already decided if they ruin the lore, I'm just going to pretend all the recent events never happened & pretend I am back in 3rd edition lore wise.

From what we've gleaned about Ynnead, and the broad suggest of Guilliman's return, it does seem that GW are engineering in schism type background.

Now that doesn't mean 'soon as Chaos has it's teeth kicked out, OPEN CIVIL WAR EVERYWHARRRRR!'. but does give them a chance to create tension within the Imperium and the Eldar.

I mean, let's consider Guilliman.

His most lasting legacy was to de-centralise military power, and for very good reason. He didn't claim control over the whole Imperium, but did sit as a High Lord of Terra.

Where does that leave him now? Is he able to simply reclaim his seat, seeing as he never actually abdicated it (unless I'm missing background, always a strong possibility)?

Will he view the current state of The Imperium as a failure of concept, and try to take over on his own? I mean, he is arguably an entirely legitimate heir to his Father's legacy, being so far the only surviving 'Son'.

Whichever route he goes down, how well will his authority be accepted?

Will he view the Ecclesiarchy as a necessary evil, or might Celestine's unique existence suggest they're actually right, and The Emperor is now diving in Himself, especially now it's pretty apparent The Imperial Truth (there are no gods etc) is patently bogus.

So much could come of this, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it.

Personally I liked it better when everything about the heresy was vague myths and legends including the primarchs other than them being around at one point and then disappeared or died or whatever. Adding them back in my opinion makes for lamb fly that's just going to make it a clash of Super Heroes instead of about armies. As much as I like Warmachine, which has the same sort of you always have a name special character, I don't think that approach ever worked well in 40K period on top of the chances are the fluff is going to be completely contrived. He will come back Save the Day and go on as though nothing happened

I'm actually glad other people are seeing that this isn't necessarily the silver lining it may initially look like given Gulliman's aversion to referring to the emperor as a god. Me and a friend were actually discussing how the High Lords of Terra would react to the return of a Primarch. Would they be relieved only to be shot down when he despises all they have done? Will they want to keep him away from Terra in fear that they would be deposed? would they declare him corrupted by chaos for surviving a cursed wound?
My personal opinion is that Gulliman is going to cause more strife in the Imperium than good, Not intentionally to try to tear it apart, but because of a clash of ideals. coming back to what an earlier poster mentioned, The Imperium Secundus.

From a rules perspective, meh. Let's see the rules, let's see the impact he has on the game. If Magnus is any indicator, he's going to be OP and only used in a few scenarios.

From a fluff perspective, I appreciate him being back, but am weary of GW's pace in advancing the narrative. Bringing back 2 Primarch, introducing a new Eldar God, etc - that's a lot for so short a time.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Personally, I was hoping for Corax.

But Guilliman is a figure that could, fluffwise, actually be a leader rather than just a killer.

Agreed - it could be a much more interesting move by Gw for the background than "RAAAH Leman Russ comes back to fight Magnus" - yawn.

RG shoud be someone who can actually try and reform elements of the Imperium and he does have the authority to do it. How he will cope with the massive changes to everythig he fought for should be interesting.

That's not that well shown in the table though. Bet he'll be uber fighter with flaming sword and kills GD's for lunch.

But then, Guilliman has inhuman wisdom.

We know the Imperium pretty much lies in tatters, and that it's about as far from The Emperor's original plan as you can get without everyone having to given Daemon's piggy-back rides for the rest of eternity.

And Guilliman would surely be able to know, being a paragon of Statesmanship (Statesmanhood? Whatevs!) that he'd likely be very careful not to rock the boat, and definitely not to do so right now when The Imperium is facing it's darkest hour ever.

And that in turn leaves The Imperium exposed to just as much as risk as if Guilliman decided 'nope, everyone listen to me. I'm in charge. I knew my Dad. Military genius. All your war are belong to me', because it heavily stymies his ability to marshall forces.

I mean, this is guy not so much used to having an entire Legion at his disposal, but an Empire within an Empire at his beck and call. He's used to doing things on a ludicrous scale, because that's what he was created to do in the first place.

And now, it seems his miraculous return is at least in part (and how much of that part remains to be seen) down to filthy Xenos and their Dirty God.

Now, given time I'm sure most of it could be hammered out - that's what Guilliman does. But time....time he simply doesn't have. So he needs to take control, without being perceived as seizing control.

RuneGrey wrote:Guilliman isn't going to take the current state of the Empire well, and he's going to want to fix things. But the High Lords are unlikley to just kindly give up power and allow the original High Lord of Terra to resume his position in command of the Empire, and the Ecclesiarchy will likely proclaim him a daemon and fake when he tells them to knock it off with the Emperor worship. Which means that if Gulliman isn't able to remake the Empire in what he believes it should be, he's likely to do what he always has: lead by example.

Could this be what was rumoured that a Loyalist Primarch will change sides? Maybe not turn to Chaos but not become a "loyalist"?

I dunno about it all, it's interesting that they've ramped up to bringing a Primarch out to play, but I can't help thinking about Valten from Warhammer Fantasy. Turns up, kicks ass in an hour of need, conveniently killed off so the setting didn't get wrecked...

I think it's lame in terms of the effect it'll have on the overall setting, I think it's lame because it puts the focus even more on a few named characters, I think it's lame because now he'll start turning up in every backwater skirmish in the 40K universe, I think it's lame because I don't like the figure and I think it's lame because if they absolutely insisted on bringing back a loyalist primarch, it could at least have been one of the interesting ones. Overall, I'll be swerving the whole sorry business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
I dunno about it all, it's interesting that they've ramped up to bringing a Primarch out to play, but I can't help thinking about Valten from Warhammer Fantasy. Turns up, kicks ass in an hour of need, conveniently killed off so the setting didn't get wrecked...

I'd love it if they brought him back just to get banged out again, and everything goes back to normal for 8th ed.

I hope that it causes a split in the Imperium. The High Lords have always been shown to be basically useless bureaucrats, desperately clinging to anything that gives them power. Having a Primarch return throws a monkey wrench into that, because they are probably fearful he will take control.

Bored with Guilliman, wished it would have been the Lion, Dorn, Khan, anyone else really. But the returning Primarchs is pretty cool

Anyone else find his model kind of... derpy?

Wayniac wrote:
I hope that it causes a split in the Imperium. The High Lords have always been shown to be basically useless bureaucrats, desperately clinging to anything that gives them power. Having a Primarch return throws a monkey wrench into that, because they are probably fearful he will take control.

I disagree. Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, that it functions at all is a major miracle, and that's down to the High Lords.

It functions because of plot armor. Nothing else.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Anyone else find his model kind of... derpy?

As a Loyalist model, sure. As a Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince, it actually looks pretty cool.

Seriously, dude looks like he's in Thousand son armour:

Considering they are both from the same era I don't really understand why people have a problem with the ornate armour. It's a level of consistency between 30k and 40k we've rarely seen.

But yeah, the posing, proportions and size of the model are all pretty much balls.

Because there is in fact such a thing as "too ornately detailed".

I think it's interesting. The Forge World sculpt is much better IMHO than this GW version of Guillimon. Perhaps we'll also get some more Daemon Prince Primarchs like Angron and Mortarion. Or even another Loyalist Primarch like Vulcan or Lion'el Johnson (spelling?).

I liked Gathering Storm I. I am not an Eldar player, so Gathering Storm II doesn't appeal to me, but perhaps I should read it as they are probably important for Gathering Storm III.

 Galef wrote:

As a Loyalist model, sure. As a Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince, it actually looks pretty cool.

Seriously, dude looks like he's in Thousand son armour:

Spoiler:

... Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince... in Thousand son armour...

Yeah but, is that what they were going for? I mean didn't they just have one of those like, 2 months ago?

I'm pleased with this, although I would have preferred another Primarch. As has been said, the Imperium is now the antithesis of what the Emperors vision was. Gulliman will kick back against that. Also, a counterpoint to Abbadon?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

As a Loyalist model, sure. As a Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince, it actually looks pretty cool.

Seriously, dude looks like he's in Thousand son armour:

... Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince... in Thousand son armour...

Yeah but, is that what they were going for? I mean didn't they just have one of those like, 2 months ago?

Magnus is a T7 Daemon Primarch and is about as tall as an Imperial Knight. Daemon PRINCES are only T5 and are only about as big as Dreadnaughts.
Hence, I suspect they're will be tons of Gilliam DP conversions in the near future.

-

I'd hoped it would be the Lion, but there is an argument in favor of Guilliman. Ultramar has always been an empire within the Imperium. If the Imperium falls to the 13th Black Crusade, Ultramar gives the remaining forces somewhere to fall back to, and Guilliman becomes the leader who can rally them. So, there could somewhere down the line be a Chaos Ascendant edition, but with mankind not down for the count.

It also sets up the possibility of a division within the Imperium. Many people complain about the Imperium being too big as a faction. Imagine if it broke down along sub-faction lines. You'd have the Ecclesiarchy clinging to their God-Emperor beliefs, taking the Sisters of Battle with them. Then you could have the Mechanicus fracturing off to do their own thing. The High Lords could get the Imperial Guard and be fighting to keep the Imperium the way it wasy. Then you'd have the Space Marines, maybe reconstituted as the legions, maybe not, but with their Primarchs returned fighting for the Emperor's vision for mankind. They'd all be Allies of Convenience to each other instead of Battle Brothers. Might even make room for some new units or even armies - the Space Marine faction could use some IG-like units to do the kinds of things the IG used to do.

You could even have some fracturing within those factions - the Black Templars definitely have the most Ecclesiarchy-friendly leanings. Suppose Dorn doesn't come back, and the Imperial Fists and successors go fully over to worshiping the Emperor as a god? The Iron Hands might slide their loyalty over to the Mechanicus.

Suffice it to say, there's room for some interesting plot developments.

It's also very interesting that Guilliman has decided to chum around with Cypher. That take some of the sting out of not getting the resurgent Lion. Plus, it indicates he might be next.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Considering they are both from the same era I don't really understand why people have a problem with the ornate armour. It's a level of consistency between 30k and 40k we've rarely seen.

But yeah, the posing, proportions and size of the model are all pretty much balls.

Because 30k Girlyman doesn't look like that and 40k Girlyman's armour was supposedly made by Cawl. So they're not from the same era.

I find it quite shocking how we can have an article in WD from Jes Goodwin talking about army's design vocabularies a few months ago and this... thing appears which looks so out of place next to other SM models is just bizarre.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Bored with Guilliman, wished it would have been the Lion, Dorn, Khan, anyone else really. But the returning Primarchs is pretty cool

IIRC Dorn was practically vaporized, and therefore not much of a candidate.

An oddity among Primarchs, Guilliman has been on public display for all this time. I think everyone else is either hidden or vanished.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

We know the Imperium pretty much lies in tatters, and that it's about as far from The Emperor's original plan as you can get without everyone having to given Daemon's piggy-back rides for the rest of eternity.

Make Imperia Great Again?

The tears are strong in this thread.
A new slightly bulky marine will do absolute jack to ruin 40k.
Until I see the rules I seriously doubt any normal primarch will do anything to be worse then a wraithknight or worse then Celestine is for the game. A primarch is going to be no worse than most of the other basic infantry lord of wars. Until I start seeing original ctan rules levels of utter balanced gak. I really don't care. Boo hoo there is another bulky marine in the game oh the humanity end times of 40k, all is lost crying can go drown in a toilet.

Now you can cry about fluff but again it's a complete joke in the overt extravagant sci fi soap opera fantasy setting that is 40k. So crying how one super soldier coming back is worse then the million of other super soldiers already in the game is a complete and utter joke.

I was personally pulling for Dorn, primarily because I saw him as the ideal candidate amongst the loyalist primarchs to flip out over what the Imperium has become and try to change it back to his father's ideal (somehow blaming Guilliman and his book in the process).

Guilliman is not a bad second choice, though. I could absolutely see him playing the same role I would want Dorn to serve on the story, but the key differences between their characters are such that I would have an easier time believing that reformations under Dorn could lead to a schism rather than under Guilliman.

Between them, Guilliman and Dorn are the most 'grounded' of the primarchs. Even though the Fists emphasize siege warfare and the Ultramarines are space romans, the baseline of what a space marine is is there somewhere between the two legions. I imagine if Dorn was to show up the two would butt heads along the same lines as such a schism.

 WE Drake Man wrote:
dont get me wrong, I have nothing against the smurfs, but I do think GW gives them a bit too much glory and attention

I dont hate the smurfs.... But Smurf.... Smurrfy SmuRF SMUFT ROWBOAT GIRLYSMIRF REEEEEEEEE