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Imagine the storyline simply finds an ending. An actual story ending, as in "That's all folks", and we all know how it went. Whatever factions you play, you would know how they die. All factions either go extinct or win so hard that they don't need a military anymore. There is no perspective for any future development anymore.

Tyranids main fleet arrives, chomp, everyone is nutrient.

Orks find a leader who unites them, raze galaxy, then kill each other.

Eye of Terror sweeps whole galaxy, everything is a deamon world, nothing really exists anymore.

Or any other way, as long as there is an actual end.

How would you feel about that? Would it stop you playing? Would it stop you being interested in the story?

It would suck, 40K is a setting to create your adventures I'm not interested in GW's stories.

I think it would be pretty dumb from GW to end their most lucrative business, but it any case I'd say... I'd still play and I think a lot of people would too, at least at my LGS. We already have the 30K battles who're not in the main storyline, so why not reenact battles of the past ? I don't think it would change anything about the way people play.

 Cheesecat wrote:
It would suck, 40K is a setting to create your adventures I'm not interested in GW's stories.

A billion times this.

I sincerely hope GW remembers this, because nuking the setting AoS-style would be anathema to this.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
It would suck, 40K is a setting to create your adventures I'm not interested in GW's stories.

A billion times this.

I sincerely hope GW remembers this, because nuking the setting AoS-style would be anathema to this.

That's true, the new AoS-setting just feels too small and defined, somehow. There is no big world, where everything could happen. It feels like there were no "normal people". It just doesn't appeal to me. It's kinda nice of the storm guys to want to rid those strange planes of chaos, but for what?

Of 40K it was always said there was only war, but actually, that's not true - there are billions of worlds in 40K, and while on millions of them, there is war, there are many, many more where there actually isn't any war. And if those weren't there, there'd be nothing worth protecting, so no actual reason to fight at all.

And they all lived happily ever after...yeah...no.

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
It would suck, 40K is a setting to create your adventures I'm not interested in GW's stories.

A billion times this.

I sincerely hope GW remembers this, because nuking the setting AoS-style would be anathema to this.

That's true, the new AoS-setting just feels too small and defined, somehow. There is no big world, where everything could happen. It feels like there were no "normal people". It just doesn't appeal to me. It's kinda nice of the storm guys to want to rid those strange planes of chaos, but for what?

Of 40K it was always said there was only war, but actually, that's not true - there are billions of worlds in 40K, and while on millions of them, there is war, there are many, many more where there actually isn't any war. And if those weren't there, there'd be nothing worth protecting, so no actual reason to fight at all.

Thankyou for articulating that for me! I've spent ages trying to work out precisely why I don't like big fluff reveals, and why it's important for information about big events in 40k to be drip-fed rather than laid out directly in front of you.

It's because it makes the setting feel small and contained.

At the moment, we've got a colossal universe filled with mystery and intrigue where nearly anything could happen.

If you explain what the Primarchs were like, what the Eldar Gods are, why the Men of Iron rebelled, what the Emperor really is and what he thinks of the Imperium, what the Omnissiah is etc. etc. it just makes everything seem a little sterile.

It's precisely why I have such a lasting dislike for the Newcron fluff. Spent ages speculating what the Necrontyr might have been like, what could have driven them to the lengths they went to, why they've started to wake up now, what their design for the galaxy was etc. It was perfect.

Now, we're pretty much told precisely what they were like, what their plan is and I'm thinking 'Oh. So that's what they're like. Fair enough I guess'.

The second point about there being no 'normal people' in AoS is also absolutely bang-on. It's something I touched on in another thread, but agrees exactly with what you're saying here

AoS is certainly better when it comes to normal people than 40k. Sure, they haven't been the spotlight (up until city of secrets and DoT) but we've seen plenty of regular dudes across the novels. Hell, even stormcasts are more regular than they seem. Sure, they look big and all, but all-together they are just beefed up normies.

Lord Kragan wrote:

AoS is certainly better when it comes to normal people than 40k. Sure, they haven't been the spotlight (up until city of secrets and DoT) but we've seen plenty of regular dudes across the novels. Hell, even stormcasts are more regular than they seem. Sure, they look big and all, but all-together they are just beefed up normies.

So are Marines really

Admittedly, I don't know much about AoS so I can't really comment, but for me the direction of 40k seems to be towards 'Living Saints', 'Avatars of Gods' and 'Returning Primarchs'. That's about as far from 'normal people' as it's possible to get.

Perhaps AoS is better in that regard, although I must admit it still feels a little sanitised compared to the Old World.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

AoS is certainly better when it comes to normal people than 40k. Sure, they haven't been the spotlight (up until city of secrets and DoT) but we've seen plenty of regular dudes across the novels. Hell, even stormcasts are more regular than they seem. Sure, they look big and all, but all-together they are just beefed up normies.

So are Marines really

Admittedly, I don't know much about AoS so I can't really comment, but for me the direction of 40k seems to be towards 'Living Saints', 'Avatars of Gods' and 'Returning Primarchs'. That's about as far from 'normal people' as it's possible to get.

Perhaps AoS is better in that regard, although I must admit it still feels a little sanitised compared to the Old World.

The thing is stormcast are male and female, when not fighting some of them actually hang out with their families when not fighting, Hang out with friends at the tavern, go hunting, write journals to preserve their memories, they also have to eat and sleep like normal people less frequent but they have to they can die of starvation as well. Of course some are very knight templer and don't do those things. As been said stormcast are just beefed up normies and they are on the strength level of chaos warriors, even vampires are faster and stronger than them.

Stormcast are closer to Chosen, as they all have some form of magic weapon.

And lord no. Don't just 'end' 40k. That'd be lazy and lamer than a one legged donkey with a hangover telling Dad Jokes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Stormcast are closer to Chosen, as they all have some form of magic weapon.

And lord no. Don't just 'end' 40k. That'd be lazy and lamer than a one legged donkey with a hangover telling Dad Jokes.

Yup, I don't think GW will do it 40k is the golden goose.

 shinros wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

AoS is certainly better when it comes to normal people than 40k. Sure, they haven't been the spotlight (up until city of secrets and DoT) but we've seen plenty of regular dudes across the novels. Hell, even stormcasts are more regular than they seem. Sure, they look big and all, but all-together they are just beefed up normies.

So are Marines really

Admittedly, I don't know much about AoS so I can't really comment, but for me the direction of 40k seems to be towards 'Living Saints', 'Avatars of Gods' and 'Returning Primarchs'. That's about as far from 'normal people' as it's possible to get.

Perhaps AoS is better in that regard, although I must admit it still feels a little sanitised compared to the Old World.

The thing is stormcast are male and female, when not fighting some of them actually hang out with their families when not fighting, Hang out with friends at the tavern, go hunting, write journals to preserve their memories, they also have to eat and sleep like normal people less frequent but they have to they can die of starvation as well. Of course some are very knight templer and don't do those things. As been said stormcast are just beefed up normies and they are on the strength level of chaos warriors, even vampires are faster and stronger than them.

The thing for me is that I never even read any further into the AoS fluff because somehow, it just doesn't have that vibe 40K has. The first things I read about AoS fluff were how Sigmar created the immortal stormcasts to drive chaos from the planes. And then nothing. It somehow just doesn't seem to be a complete world to my outsiders eye.

The first things I read about 40K around 1991 were how a bunch of space marines are sent to deal with a space hulk. And for some reason (I can't really put my finger on it), that implied there was a huge universe out there of which this bit was only part. Whereas the AoS fluff bits you get just don't seem to indicate that. They read like the whole thing, those planes they are fighting on, only existed for them to fight there.

I'm not saying AoS is bad, I'm just saying it doesn't have this feeling of depth that makes me want to know more. 40K does. Yet.

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

The thing for me is that I never even read any further into the AoS fluff because somehow, it just doesn't have that vibe 40K has. The first things I read about AoS fluff were how Sigmar created the immortal stormcasts to drive chaos from the planes. And then nothing. It somehow just doesn't seem to be a complete world to my outsiders eye.

The first things I read about 40K around 1991 were how a bunch of space marines are sent to deal with a space hulk. And for some reason (I can't really put my finger on it), that implied there was a huge universe out there of which this bit was only part. Whereas the AoS fluff bits you get just don't seem to indicate that. They read like the whole thing, those planes they are fighting on, only existed for them to fight there.

I'm not saying AoS is bad, I'm just saying it doesn't have this feeling of depth that makes me want to know more. 40K does. Yet.

This.

I'll give AoS time to build up the background. After all, both 40k and the Old World have had decades of gradual development. Aos is still very much in its infancy.

Still, it's definitely a matter of scope and perspective. In AoS it very much feels like you're outside of the setting looking down, whereas in 40k you feel very much like you're in the setting looking out at this vast and varied galaxy.

 shinros wrote:

The thing is stormcast are male and female, when not fighting some of them actually hang out with their families when not fighting, Hang out with friends at the tavern, go hunting, write journals to preserve their memories, they also have to eat and sleep like normal people less frequent but they have to they can die of starvation as well. Of course some are very knight templer and don't do those things. As been said stormcast are just beefed up normies and they are on the strength level of chaos warriors, even vampires are faster and stronger than them.

Aside from the male/female thing and having normal lives all the same is true of Marines.

They're just beefed up humans.

It's part of the appeal of the 40k universe. The fact that humanity's supersoldiers are still so human compared to the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy. Yes they might be indoctrinated, biologically modified and clad in ancient power-armour, but compared to what they're facing they're small-fry.

It's something that's sadly not played up much these days in favour of 'OMFG Mehreens are awesome!', but they really are just one notch above a regular dude in a galaxy of swarms of ravenous space-bugs big enough to blot out the warp, lovecraftian warp-entities that can manifest a portal through the brains of the dude standing next to you and spew daemons out, other Marines who are equal in every way except have been killing for longer than you have, undead nigh-unkillable robots from pre-history that killed the Gods of one of the most advanced races currently existing. Even the Eldar, while ostensibly weaker than an Astartes, have a sharp technological advantage and the ability to see potential futures in realtime rather than just stumbling forward down a road you can't see the end of.

Compared to that, Astartes are normal guys. Plus, when they die they're dead. Stormcasts get a couple of goes at it (although the whole soul-fading thing is pretty grimdark and cool).

Now, I don't want you to think that I hold any kind of hatred towards Stormcasts. It's just that to my mind, Astartes are much more human than people think.

Either way, it's not really the relative power of the troops-of-the-line that is the issue at the moment. It's the focus that's given to the 'amazeballs powerful' special characters, rather than the gritty low-level heroism that's just so much less compelling.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

The thing for me is that I never even read any further into the AoS fluff because somehow, it just doesn't have that vibe 40K has. The first things I read about AoS fluff were how Sigmar created the immortal stormcasts to drive chaos from the planes. And then nothing. It somehow just doesn't seem to be a complete world to my outsiders eye.

The first things I read about 40K around 1991 were how a bunch of space marines are sent to deal with a space hulk. And for some reason (I can't really put my finger on it), that implied there was a huge universe out there of which this bit was only part. Whereas the AoS fluff bits you get just don't seem to indicate that. They read like the whole thing, those planes they are fighting on, only existed for them to fight there.

I'm not saying AoS is bad, I'm just saying it doesn't have this feeling of depth that makes me want to know more. 40K does. Yet.

This.

I'll give AoS time to build up the background. After all, both 40k and the Old World have had decades of gradual development. Aos is still very much in its infancy.

Still, it's definitely a matter of scope and perspective. In AoS it very much feels like you're outside of the setting looking down, whereas in 40k you feel very much like you're in the setting looking out at this vast and varied galaxy.

 shinros wrote:

The thing is stormcast are male and female, when not fighting some of them actually hang out with their families when not fighting, Hang out with friends at the tavern, go hunting, write journals to preserve their memories, they also have to eat and sleep like normal people less frequent but they have to they can die of starvation as well. Of course some are very knight templer and don't do those things. As been said stormcast are just beefed up normies and they are on the strength level of chaos warriors, even vampires are faster and stronger than them.

Aside from the male/female thing and having normal lives all the same is true of Marines.

They're just beefed up humans.

It's part of the appeal of the 40k universe. The fact that humanity's supersoldiers are still so human compared to the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy. Yes they might be indoctrinated, biologically modified and clad in ancient power-armour, but compared to what they're facing they're small-fry.

It's something that's sadly not played up much these days in favour of 'OMFG Mehreens are awesome!', but they really are just one notch above a regular dude in a galaxy of swarms of ravenous space-bugs big enough to blot out the warp, lovecraftian warp-entities that can manifest a portal through the brains of the dude standing next to you and spew daemons out, other Marines who are equal in every way except have been killing for longer than you have, undead nigh-unkillable robots from pre-history that killed the Gods of one of the most advanced races currently existing. Even the Eldar, while ostensibly weaker than an Astartes, have a sharp technological advantage and the ability to see potential futures in realtime rather than just stumbling forward down a road you can't see the end of.

Compared to that, Astartes are normal guys. Plus, when they die they're dead. Stormcasts get a couple of goes at it (although the whole soul-fading thing is pretty grimdark and cool).

Now, I don't want you to think that I hold any kind of hatred towards Stormcasts. It's just that to my mind, Astartes are much more human than people think.

Either way, it's not really the relative power of the troops-of-the-line that is the issue at the moment. It's the focus that's given to the 'amazeballs powerful' special characters, rather than the gritty low-level heroism that's just so much less compelling.

Oh I know but the issue is and why I fell out with 40k really is that they don't really talk about those parts anymore as you said. It's the main reason why I picked up chaos marines since with the dynamic of chaos they have to explore those bits more, one of the main bits that stood out to me yes stormcast come back but they have to suffer through the soul fading *coughnagashcough* but one lord celestant when facing a gore grunta charge, was terrified to die, he was afraid of changing, not caring about his friends, loved ones and comrades and losing his memories of the times he spent in the tavern before the war. Since you see clearly in the book that another lord celestant has died several times and pretty much care's about nothing save the mission which causes the death's of his soldiers which said stormcast has a problem with.

Yet he knew that it was his lot to die there for the sake of sigmar's mission which gives him the strength to push forward. Anyway I don't want to drag this off topic.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

The thing for me is that I never even read any further into the AoS fluff because somehow, it just doesn't have that vibe 40K has. The first things I read about AoS fluff were how Sigmar created the immortal stormcasts to drive chaos from the planes. And then nothing. It somehow just doesn't seem to be a complete world to my outsiders eye.

The first things I read about 40K around 1991 were how a bunch of space marines are sent to deal with a space hulk. And for some reason (I can't really put my finger on it), that implied there was a huge universe out there of which this bit was only part. Whereas the AoS fluff bits you get just don't seem to indicate that. They read like the whole thing, those planes they are fighting on, only existed for them to fight there.

I'm not saying AoS is bad, I'm just saying it doesn't have this feeling of depth that makes me want to know more. 40K does. Yet.

This.

I'll give AoS time to build up the background. After all, both 40k and the Old World have had decades of gradual development. Aos is still very much in its infancy.

Still, it's definitely a matter of scope and perspective. In AoS it very much feels like you're outside of the setting looking down, whereas in 40k you feel very much like you're in the setting looking out at this vast and varied galaxy.

 shinros wrote:

The thing is stormcast are male and female, when not fighting some of them actually hang out with their families when not fighting, Hang out with friends at the tavern, go hunting, write journals to preserve their memories, they also have to eat and sleep like normal people less frequent but they have to they can die of starvation as well. Of course some are very knight templer and don't do those things. As been said stormcast are just beefed up normies and they are on the strength level of chaos warriors, even vampires are faster and stronger than them.

Aside from the male/female thing and having normal lives all the same is true of Marines.

They're just beefed up humans.

It's part of the appeal of the 40k universe. The fact that humanity's supersoldiers are still so human compared to the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy. Yes they might be indoctrinated, biologically modified and clad in ancient power-armour, but compared to what they're facing they're small-fry.

It's something that's sadly not played up much these days in favour of 'OMFG Mehreens are awesome!', but they really are just one notch above a regular dude in a galaxy of swarms of ravenous space-bugs big enough to blot out the warp, lovecraftian warp-entities that can manifest a portal through the brains of the dude standing next to you and spew daemons out, other Marines who are equal in every way except have been killing for longer than you have, undead nigh-unkillable robots from pre-history that killed the Gods of one of the most advanced races currently existing. Even the Eldar, while ostensibly weaker than an Astartes, have a sharp technological advantage and the ability to see potential futures in realtime rather than just stumbling forward down a road you can't see the end of.

Compared to that, Astartes are normal guys. Plus, when they die they're dead. Stormcasts get a couple of goes at it (although the whole soul-fading thing is pretty grimdark and cool).

Now, I don't want you to think that I hold any kind of hatred towards Stormcasts. It's just that to my mind, Astartes are much more human than people think.

Either way, it's not really the relative power of the troops-of-the-line that is the issue at the moment. It's the focus that's given to the 'amazeballs powerful' special characters, rather than the gritty low-level heroism that's just so much less compelling.

No, I think you're missing the point of my statement.

A stormcast is within the realm of what is human. A space marine isn't. Sorry, but stopping bullets with your ribs and be fine isn't human. Have the memory of those eaten brains isn't human. Even the personality is a huge if since plenty of authors go out of their way to depict them as utterly alien to humans.
And space marines don't have multiple goes? Dear, Sus-an membranes are their method of cheating death. Sure it's not Death death, but ultimately that thing triggers when death-causing wounds happen. Plus not all stormcasts get that other go. The reforging isn't a nice experience.

Now. Yeah, too focuse was spent on them, but I'll disagree there wasn't low-level gritty heroism or even moments of grim-darkness. IMO God-beasts represents that moment. It's the sheer scale of what's at stake. Even the "amazeballs" are but ants by comparison at such an event. It's very humbling, the feeling of impotence they feel.

Neat that is fun and nuanced. You may just have sold me on them as a concept

All that stuff is still there in 40k, you just have to look elsewhere from the mainstream GW big releases. Check out stuff like Iron Sleet with their interpretation of the Vlka Fenryka (Space Wolves done more right than anything I've ever seen) and the Green Mechanicum. The Convertorum is another great look for nuanced stuff, or basically anything INQ28 is where the good stuff is

Oh, lastly, check this out if you want to be reinvigorated about what 40k can be:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322490-beneath-terra-inquisimunda-the-xith-legion/

Anyway, what was the original topic again?