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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I completely disagree. I feel like the old Necron and Tyranid fluff was a necessary response to the actualities of Chaos as the fans perceived it--pathetic. Chaos is almost impossible to take seriously as an enemy, especially after 10,000 years of Has Beening and Never Will Againing as exemplified by Abaddon. They were literally stewing in their own failure for thousands of years. The mechanics of the Chaos gods preclude them from any true victory, or even longterm partnership. Chaos works as the insidious threat of internal corruption, an ideological threat or as the deadly distraction during an actual existential crisis. Other than the cults, they might as well just have been more colorful ork clans (back before orks were diversified into genegineered fungus monsters). Tyranids and Necrons added new dimensions to the fluff, more believable threats, and raised a whole lot of interesting backstory implications.

And the fact that it got to a point where the biggest threat that the Imperium face has become a joke amongst players is also a MASSIVE problem with the fluff.
It's all good saying chaos should be about inner corruption of organisations but that is just the fuel for chaos, the product of chaos is what the Gods then do with the power they get from corrupting things: see Daemons and CSM. The fact that neither of these factions are seen as a real threat by the fans shows that Chaos as a whole isn't really that much of a threat, which is absurd. Chaos should slowly chip away at Imperial institutions, wearing them out until they have gained enough power to tear apart what is left of the crippled Imperium. I actually like the new fluff for thr Black Crusades, it encapsulates what chaos is: deceit corruption, insecurity for those who face it, etc. The fact that despite the Imperiums best efforts chaos are victorious and at the end of it the Imperium actually thinks they have won because they don't know what's really going on is brilliant as a description of Chaos. But unfortunetly we get people who just scream "failbaddon" etc. because they can't accept the fact that Chaos can't be defeated and that the Imperium is stretched too far to defend against the conveluted attacks by Chaos forces, and all of this because GW couldn't write villains for **** and now they're trying to go back and fix it.

(I went on a rant there and may have gotten off topic a bit but it's all over now)

 BBAP wrote:

Also, why Robot Girlyman? Why not The Khan or one of the other cool Primarchs? Why bring back the boring one?

Because he's not all that boring, and he is a better symbol of hope to rally the forces of the Imperium behind than any of his (living) Loyalist Brothers.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Also, why Robot Girlyman? Why not The Khan or one of the other cool Primarchs? Why bring back the boring one?

Because he's not all that boring, and he is a better symbol of hope to rally the forces of the Imperium behind than any of his (living) Loyalist Brothers.

Roboute is the best/worst primarch to drop into 40k, he is a reformist, master of building and organisation and probably the thing that will cause a 2nd civil war in the imperium as a whole.

The Emperor consuming 500 (1000?) Psykers every single day. It's good that it adds to the grimdark 'everyone's a bad guy' feel but I just wonder who they actualy do that. Even with all the countless billions of Imperial citizens availible it still sounds like a big ask to round-up 1000 psykers and then make them die for the Emperor every single day. There must presumably be an entire admin or Arbites branch devoted to saying: "You're a wizard Harry!.... now get on this ship to Terra so that you can sacrifice yourself."

Terminator armour being a glorified Hazmat suit. It's supposed to be a holy bastion of Imperial engineering with a fragment of the Emperor's own armor in it (crux terminatus).

 Nerak wrote:
I hate Imperial knights

I don't like the way that GW have made Apocalypse games opt-out rather than opt-in but other than that I don't see what's wrong with them.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Also, why Robot Girlyman? Why not The Khan or one of the other cool Primarchs? Why bring back the boring one?

Because he's not all that boring, and he is a better symbol of hope to rally the forces of the Imperium behind than any of his (living) Loyalist Brothers.

He's a seditious self-righteous jerk, which could be interesting if they fleshed it out a bit - but they're not going to develop that. It's going to be the "spiritual liege" crap. That's dull. There's enough hackneyed one dimensional Marvel/DC comic book toons in the galaxy already.

We could've had bro-tastic Vulkan being awesome and empathetic and compassionate, dragging the Imperium in a less genocidal direction, or the Khan riding out of the Warp or whatever on his giant motorbike to run down the enemies of the Imperium. Instead we get Rowboat leading us into The Age of Smurf Village. Blech.

...It's called the League of Black Ships. They visit your planet and make you turn over your loved ones. You are responsible for screening everyone you know for witchcraft and imprisoning them for later imperial service, and if you don't they will have the Arbites find you in breach of duty and everyone will be killed, just to be safe.

Rofl oh yeah, Robert the Gullible is back. I think The Lion would've been a neater choice. Heck I'd even take Rogal Dorn returning and reforming the loyalist legions. But instead it's Rowboat the traitorous king of his own empire that somehow later is what Every Single Space Marine aspires to be. Well to keep it from being boring I hope he turns against the Imperium and quite frankly I'm pretty confident he would if he's consistent in character. It only takes a rumour that Daddy is dead and he immediately begins running his own show. Imagine now.

pelicaniforce wrote:
...It's called the League of Black Ships. They visit your planet and make you turn over your loved ones. You are responsible for screening everyone you know for witchcraft and imprisoning them for later imperial service, and if you don't they will have the Arbites find you in breach of duty and everyone will be killed, just to be safe.

I've got visions of an epic story of escape and deception as a psyker escapes the Black Ships; then after some weeks the psyker is eventually caught and then the Black Ship person just adds it to the 1K delivery for that day. Then the Black Ship person says "right..now for psyker #2....."

Well that's also how they find their psykers for other uses like astropaths so it's not all so bad I guess. The alternative is eventually a daemon explodes from their head and kills everyone they know.

Yeah, that story would be right on the mark. You could submit it to GW so they can recall the third edition rule book and edit that in somewhere the send the books back where they came from.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah, that story would be right on the mark. You could submit it to GW so they can recall the third edition rule book and edit that in somewhere the send the books back where they came from.

While they're doing it they might make some typos, lose some pages etc and it'll still be a more complete rulebook than 7th.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Rofl oh yeah, Robert the Gullible is back. I think The Lion would've been a neater choice. Heck I'd even take Rogal Dorn returning and reforming the loyalist legions. But instead it's Rowboat the traitorous king of his own empire that somehow later is what Every Single Space Marine aspires to be. Well to keep it from being boring I hope he turns against the Imperium and quite frankly I'm pretty confident he would if he's consistent in character. It only takes a rumour that Daddy is dead and he immediately begins running his own show. Imagine now.

I'm telling you, I think that Bad Bob there was actually the 10th Primarch to fall to Chaos, and he simply held his forces back to see who would win. Seeing the Imperium without a leader, he steps in to succeed where Horus had failed, but turning the Imperium into a force after his own image. He simply didn't count on Fulgrim winning the duel when he went to silence the Primarchs that could blow his cover.

 BBAP wrote:


He's a seditious self-righteous jerk, which could be interesting if they fleshed it out a bit - but they're not going to develop that. It's going to be the "spiritual liege" crap. That's dull. There's enough hackneyed one dimensional Marvel/DC comic book toons in the galaxy already.

We could've had bro-tastic Vulkan being awesome and empathetic and compassionate, dragging the Imperium in a less genocidal direction, or the Khan riding out of the Warp or whatever on his giant motorbike to run down the enemies of the Imperium. Instead we get Rowboat leading us into The Age of Smurf Village. Blech.

Loving the double standards. RG needs to be fleshed out but good-guy Vulkan and Hells Angels Ghengis are `totally radical` and completely not one-dimensional.

 BBAP wrote:


I don't like that either. I always saw Celestine as a "Legion of the Damned"-style force of nature who showed up out of nowhere to kick arse, then vanished as mysteriously as she arrived when the day was won. Now she's like, hanging out with all the Cadia dudes and having conversations with people and stuff. She's gone from "mysterious divine benefactor" to "cheesy superhero".

Junior Scribe Yimmni O'Sen - Oh my Emperor! The evil Dr. Abbadon is attacking! We should go cover it!
Mild Mannered Sister Hospitalis Rinda Danvarz - Gasp! I just remembered I left the iron on in my hab unit! I'll be right back!
Yimmi - But Rinda... oh she's already gone, where did she go? Wait, who's that emerging from that Com-Link Booth?
St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade - Here I come to save the day!
Yimmi - Wow go St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade!
(Soon)
Yimmi - Hey there you are Rinda, you missed all the action! St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade stopped the evil Dr Abaddon but he escaped in a warp porthole at the last second.
Rinda - Aw too bad, I always wanted to meet St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade.
Yimmi - Funny how you two are never in the same place at the same time.

 BBAP wrote:

 Servant of Dante wrote:
As to what fluff I hate? The new stuff on Celestine and the twins in FoC.

I don't like that either. I always saw Celestine as a "Legion of the Damned"-style force of nature who showed up out of nowhere to kick arse, then vanished as mysteriously as she arrived when the day was won. Now she's like, hanging out with all the Cadia dudes and having conversations with people and stuff. She's gone from "mysterious divine benefactor" to "cheesy superhero".

The gameplay and story segregation is a bit jarring too. The Fall of Cadia books are the only fluff I've really read since I got back into the hobby and they're brimming over with silliness. Who puts Suncannons on a Wraithknight? What kind of Eldar general lets a Keeper of Secrets get into close combat with his dudes? Why are they so scared of the Daemonettes? I get that Slaanesh will eat their souls, but in combat, why would they care? Daemonettes suck. I find it hard to believe the elite Eldar warrior classes would be scared of some daemons that my inbred, 5pts-per-model Neophyte Hybrids can destroy by the bushel with their space hillbilly shotguns and autoguns.

Also, why Robot Girlyman? Why not The Khan or one of the other cool Primarchs? Why bring back the boring one?

Gulliman IS the intreasting one, all the other primarchs are warriors first, foremost and only, Gulliman is a statesman, he's gonna change things.

MarsNZ wrote:Loving the double standards. RG needs to be fleshed out but good-guy Vulkan and Hells Angels Ghengis are `totally radical` and completely not one-dimensional

It's not that. GW's writers are cack, so the characters are largely going to be one dimensional no matter what. The Khan and Vulkan might at least be one dimeinsional in an interesting way. Girlyman could be too, but they're going to opt for the "Spiritual Liege" angle and it's going to suck.

The Age of Girlyman is upon us.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Junior Scribe Yimmni O'Sen - Oh my Emperor! The evil Dr. Abbadon is attacking! We should go cover it!
Mild Mannered Sister Hospitalis Rinda Danvarz - Gasp! I just remembered I left the iron on in my hab unit! I'll be right back!
Yimmi - But Rinda... oh she's already gone, where did she go? Wait, who's that emerging from that Com-Link Booth?
St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade - Here I come to save the day!
Yimmi - Wow go St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade!
(Soon)
Yimmi - Hey there you are Rinda, you missed all the action! St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade stopped the evil Dr Abaddon but he escaped in a warp porthole at the last second.
Rinda - Aw too bad, I always wanted to meet St Celestine, Hieromartyr of the Palatine Crusade.
Yimmi - Funny how you two are never in the same place at the same time.

When I was young, foolish, and trying to impress a lit student I was into, I took her to see this play about two men stuck on an island. One of them had a conscience represented by a woman in an angel robe who'd come out from behind the curtain and slap him around the head whenever he thought of doing something bad, before disappearing again. Never spoke a word, just came out, slapped the dude, and vanished.

I always imagined St Celestine as the war equivalent of that. Now she's like "baroque-Calvinist Jean Grey" or something.

BrianDavion wrote:Gulliman IS the intreasting one, all the other primarchs are warriors first, foremost and only, Gulliman is a statesman, he's gonna change things.

He's not a statesman. He's the "Spiritual Liege" guy. "Statesman" is one of the many qualities he is slated to have that he doesn't actually display.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Rofl oh yeah, Robert the Gullible is back. I think The Lion would've been a neater choice. Heck I'd even take Rogal Dorn returning and reforming the loyalist legions. But instead it's Rowboat the traitorous king of his own empire that somehow later is what Every Single Space Marine aspires to be. Well to keep it from being boring I hope he turns against the Imperium and quite frankly I'm pretty confident he would if he's consistent in character. It only takes a rumour that Daddy is dead and he immediately begins running his own show. Imagine now.

That's an incredibly narrow mindset on why Roboute Guilliman proposed the Legions should be broken down into Chapters. He also wasn't the only Primarch who thought that was for the best.

I have not read anything on Guilliman to suggest that he was a selfish character who could be swayed by Chaos, although in fairness, Horus was meant to have been incorruptible too.


Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

 BBAP wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:Gulliman IS the intreasting one, all the other primarchs are warriors first, foremost and only, Gulliman is a statesman, he's gonna change things.

He's not a statesman. He's the "Spiritual Liege" guy. "Statesman" is one of the many qualities he is slated to have that he doesn't actually display.

Perhaps you should put down that 5th edition codex, it's 2 editions out of date and read some of the lore. and then, without inventing reasons for why it doesn't count and Gulliman is such a horriable guy for stealing screen time from your favorite primarch, sit down and think about the implications. you realize that after the Emperor died, Gulliman BASICLY ran the IoM right?

 General Annoyance wrote:
Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

Oh no doubt. There's no pleasing that crowd regardless of what GW writes.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

This is 40k fluff we're talking about. Nothing "hip and cool" about any of this.

The Primarchs died 10,000 years before the story is set. None of them should be coming back, unless it's as a Daemon Prince or some kind of otherworldly monstrosity. Robot Gulliver remained in stasis for 10,000 years because he's a creator's pet. They ***could*** do something interesting with him. He could come back wrong and be a Julius Caesar-style usurper, as his attempt to set up his own Imperium seems to suggest he could be. They could also play up the fact the Eldar manipulated his resurrection.

They're not going to do that though. He's coming back from the dead to Elminster up the 40k universe and lead his Toilet Smurfs to yet more glory at the expense of everyone who isn't a Toilet Smurf or Space Marine. Then, when the Warp storms "shatter" the galaxy and everyone ends up with their own "realms", he'll become the leader of the Imperium.

The Age of Girlyman, that's what they'll call it.

BrianDavion wrote:
Perhaps you should put down that 5th edition codex, it's 2 editions out of date and read some of the lore. and then, without inventing reasons for why it doesn't count and Gulliman is such a horriable guy for stealing screen time from your favorite primarch, sit down and think about the implications. you realize that after the Emperor died, Gulliman BASICLY ran the IoM right?

I don't have a "favourite" Primarch. Some of them are less bad than others, but none of them should be alive in M41.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Rofl oh yeah, Robert the Gullible is back. I think The Lion would've been a neater choice. Heck I'd even take Rogal Dorn returning and reforming the loyalist legions. But instead it's Rowboat the traitorous king of his own empire that somehow later is what Every Single Space Marine aspires to be. Well to keep it from being boring I hope he turns against the Imperium and quite frankly I'm pretty confident he would if he's consistent in character. It only takes a rumour that Daddy is dead and he immediately begins running his own show. Imagine now.

That's an incredibly narrow mindset on why Roboute Guilliman proposed the Legions should be broken down into Chapters. He also wasn't the only Primarch who thought that was for the best.

I have not read anything on Guilliman to suggest that he was a selfish character who could be swayed by Chaos, although in fairness, Horus was meant to have been incorruptible too.


Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

I never provided any reasoning as to why Rawbutt Jellyman disbanded the legions. I only mentioned Dorn would be more interesting because he'd form them back into legions.

I never mentioned anything about being corrupted by Chaos. He's guilty of building a second empire within the borders and during the reign of the much larger empire he was supposed to be loyal to. It's treason but no I agree he did not fall to Chaos.

The only part of your post that addresses mine is the hip and cool comment. Was it someone else's post you meant to quote? OK well about that. It's got far less to do with hip and cool and more to do with Geedub's mishandling of Robust Gilligan amongst many other characters and a strong cynical prediction that they will continue to mishandle him. It was fine originally when we could debate and question R. Googleman Esq.' loyalties due to his seditious empire building. The whole spiritual liege and everyone aspires to be bull gak was a kick to the nuts of an otherwise potentially colourful character followed not too far by a fan base eagerly pouncing on any debate or question of his loyalty. A debate and question that existed longer then the spiritual liege camp. So no its not being hip and cool to question Robot Gigglytan, it's traditional.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I have not read anything on Guilliman to suggest that he was a selfish character who could be swayed by Chaos, although in fairness, Horus was meant to have been incorruptible too.

And look at the fact that his entire Legion was pretty much intact after the assault on Terra, while all the other Legions took massive beatings, some almost to the point of being wiped out. Some would question the timing and convenience of their "inability" to commit to the battle. Even Russ and Jonson (sp?) dropped what they were doing to make best possible speed to contribute. What did Sweet Baby Row do? Quelled an Eldar incursion, which translates to an entire Legion vs. a few hundred Eldar. Good expenditure of resources. SOMEONE has to question that.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

Actually, I've hated the Ultramarines since 2nd Edition. Ever since the first moment someone looked over at my Crimson Fists and said "Oh, you play Ultramarines." and I respond with "No, I play Crimson Fists." and get "You use Codex: Ultramarines, so you play Ultramarines." as a retort. THAT kind of nonsense pissed me off far before Mat Ward bukkake'd all over the Ultramarines in the 5th Codex.

 BBAP wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

This is 40k fluff we're talking about. Nothing "hip and cool" about any of this.

The Primarchs died 10,000 years before the story is set. None of them should be coming back, unless it's as a Daemon Prince or some kind of otherworldly monstrosity. Robot Gulliver remained in stasis for 10,000 years because he's a creator's pet. They ***could*** do something interesting with him. He could come back wrong and be a Julius Caesar-style usurper, as his attempt to set up his own Imperium seems to suggest he could be. They could also play up the fact the Eldar manipulated his resurrection.

They're not going to do that though. He's coming back from the dead to Elminster up the 40k universe and lead his Toilet Smurfs to yet more glory at the expense of everyone who isn't a Toilet Smurf or Space Marine. Then, when the Warp storms "shatter" the galaxy and everyone ends up with their own "realms", he'll become the leader of the Imperium.

The Age of Girlyman, that's what they'll call it.

This.

They could do so much interesting stuff with Guilliman.

1. Play up the flaws in his character
2. Have him split/divide the Imperium somehow, possibly unintentionally
3. Intrigue regarding Mechanicus/Eldar control over him
4. Raise questions over his loyalty/motivations

Any of those would give so much more depth than just 'glorious flawless saviour of mankind' which is frankly just as tedious as the 'Eldar swoop in to save the day' trope.

Based on how they handled the Ynnari I actually have hope that this might be interesting, but there's still scope to mess it up as much as they messed up his model...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
And look at the fact that his entire Legion was pretty much intact after the assault on Terra, while all the other Legions took massive beatings, some almost to the point of being wiped out. Some would question the timing and convenience of their "inability" to commit to the battle. Even Russ and Jonson (sp?) dropped what they were doing to make best possible speed to contribute. What did Sweet Baby Row do? Quelled an Eldar incursion, which translates to an entire Legion vs. a few hundred Eldar. Good expenditure of resources. SOMEONE has to question that.

This is exactly the character nuance that makes me actually like the idea of Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

In the world of 40k, anyone who stands out as wholly 'good' is out of place. Everyone, and I mean everyone, should be a grey area. The Ultramarines might be completely and utterly loyal, but some of their actions are suspicious. It's exactly that that makes them actually fit with 40k.

 Just Tony wrote:

And look at the fact that his entire Legion was pretty much intact after the assault on Terra, while all the other Legions took massive beatings, some almost to the point of being wiped out. Some would question the timing and convenience of their "inability" to commit to the battle. Even Russ and Jonson (sp?) dropped what they were doing to make best possible speed to contribute. What did Sweet Baby Row do? Quelled an Eldar incursion, which translates to an entire Legion vs. a few hundred Eldar. Good expenditure of resources. SOMEONE has to question that.

.

Yeah. UM were obviously supposed to disobey warmaster(before he was revealed to be traitor). You know? His superior officer he was expected to obey like emperor?

Yeah. Makes sense.

tneva82 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

And look at the fact that his entire Legion was pretty much intact after the assault on Terra, while all the other Legions took massive beatings, some almost to the point of being wiped out. Some would question the timing and convenience of their "inability" to commit to the battle. Even Russ and Jonson (sp?) dropped what they were doing to make best possible speed to contribute. What did Sweet Baby Row do? Quelled an Eldar incursion, which translates to an entire Legion vs. a few hundred Eldar. Good expenditure of resources. SOMEONE has to question that.

.

Yeah. UM were obviously supposed to disobey warmaster(before he was revealed to be traitor). You know? His superior officer he was expected to obey like emperor?

Yeah. Makes sense.

At least it makes his character interesting, rather than just a bland vanilla do-gooder...

 General Annoyance wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Rofl oh yeah, Robert the Gullible is back. I think The Lion would've been a neater choice. Heck I'd even take Rogal Dorn returning and reforming the loyalist legions. But instead it's Rowboat the traitorous king of his own empire that somehow later is what Every Single Space Marine aspires to be. Well to keep it from being boring I hope he turns against the Imperium and quite frankly I'm pretty confident he would if he's consistent in character. It only takes a rumour that Daddy is dead and he immediately begins running his own show. Imagine now.

That's an incredibly narrow mindset on why Roboute Guilliman proposed the Legions should be broken down into Chapters. He also wasn't the only Primarch who thought that was for the best.

I have not read anything on Guilliman to suggest that he was a selfish character who could be swayed by Chaos, although in fairness, Horus was meant to have been incorruptible too.


Still, I'm pretty sure the majority of these complaints against Guilliman's return are because it's hip and cool to dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Ultrasmurfs.

As long as calgar keeps being a badass and sicarius (please kill him off gw) is kept far away from being chapter master it's all good.

BBAP wrote:This is 40k fluff we're talking about. Nothing "hip and cool" about any of this.

Let's change the phrasing then - normal and approved of by the majority of the community.

The Primarchs died 10,000 years before the story is set. None of them should be coming back, unless it's as a Daemon Prince or some kind of otherworldly monstrosity.

This sounds more like an opinion than actual fact on why the Primarchs shouldn't be returning, even though there has been the age old myth of them returning to fight during humanity's darkest hour.

Robot Gulliver remained in stasis for 10,000 years because he's a creator's pet. They ***could*** do something interesting with him. He could come back wrong and be a Julius Caesar-style usurper, as his attempt to set up his own Imperium seems to suggest he could be. They could also play up the fact the Eldar manipulated his resurrection.

They could. Do they have to, though?

They're not going to do that though. He's coming back from the dead to Elminster up the 40k universe and lead his Toilet Smurfs to yet more glory at the expense of everyone who isn't a Toilet Smurf or Space Marine. Then, when the Warp storms "shatter" the galaxy and everyone ends up with their own "realms", he'll become the leader of the Imperium.

The Age of Girlyman, that's what they'll call it.

Save jumping the gun on that till it actually happens... if it does at all.

ProwlerPC wrote:I never provided any reasoning as to why Rawbutt Jellyman disbanded the legions. I only mentioned Dorn would be more interesting because he'd form them back into legions.

Not provided, but certainly suggested it to be a poor move that's entirely his fault.

I never mentioned anything about being corrupted by Chaos. He's guilty of building a second empire within the borders and during the reign of the much larger empire he was supposed to be loyal to. It's treason but no I agree he did not fall to Chaos.

But that colony is completely loyal to the Imperium, even if the smaller worlds answer to Macragge first before the Imperium, so it can't be a separate empire by definition.

The only part of your post that addresses mine is the hip and cool comment. Was it someone else's post you meant to quote? OK well about that. It's got far less to do with hip and cool and more to do with Geedub's mishandling of Robust Gilligan amongst many other characters and a strong cynical prediction that they will continue to mishandle him. It was fine originally when we could debate and question R. Googleman Esq.' loyalties due to his seditious empire building. The whole spiritual liege and everyone aspires to be bull gak was a kick to the nuts of an otherwise potentially colourful character followed not too far by a fan base eagerly pouncing on any debate or question of his loyalty. A debate and question that existed longer then the spiritual liege camp. So no its not being hip and cool to question Robot Gigglytan, it's traditional.

It was a general comment regarding how this has been a common theme amongst many 40k fans to bash Guilliman and the Ultramarines at any possible point for years, and how, 9 times out of 10, it is mostly the same tired criticism of them being the poster boys of the Space Marines.

We get it. It'd be cool if some smaller Chapters got some more recognition in the lore, and it'd be great if we could hear more tales of victory from places other than where the Ultramarines happen to be. But when the Ultramarines have been stated as definitively being the finest Chapter of Adeptus Astartes the Imperium of Man can muster at times of war, it's a little tricky to take them off that pedestal.

And why should they be taken off there, honestly? It seems like the concept of insane heroism is lost amongst this community when it comes to lore, in an over the top universe where acts of heroism are practically the only saving grace the Imperium can cling onto.

 Just Tony wrote:
And look at the fact that his entire Legion was pretty much intact after the assault on Terra, while all the other Legions took massive beatings, some almost to the point of being wiped out. Some would question the timing and convenience of their "inability" to commit to the battle. Even Russ and Jonson (sp?) dropped what they were doing to make best possible speed to contribute. What did Sweet Baby Row do? Quelled an Eldar incursion, which translates to an entire Legion vs. a few hundred Eldar. Good expenditure of resources. SOMEONE has to question that.

As far as I'm aware, Guilliman was only hours late to the battle of Terra (I'm not very great with pre 40k lore). Would be much appreciated if you can cite where you got that from.

Actually, I've hated the Ultramarines since 2nd Edition. Ever since the first moment someone looked over at my Crimson Fists and said "Oh, you play Ultramarines." and I respond with "No, I play Crimson Fists." and get "You use Codex: Ultramarines, so you play Ultramarines." as a retort. THAT kind of nonsense pissed me off far before Mat Ward bukkake'd all over the Ultramarines in the 5th Codex.

This sounds more like shooting the messenger than having a genuine problem with the Ultramarines. Call out the bigoted player who said you played Ultramarines rather than CF rather than whoever was writing the UM to fame at the time.

Ynneadwraith wrote:They could do so much interesting stuff with Guilliman.

1. Play up the flaws in his character
2. Have him split/divide the Imperium somehow, possibly unintentionally
3. Intrigue regarding Mechanicus/Eldar control over him
4. Raise questions over his loyalty/motivations

Any of those would give so much more depth than just 'glorious flawless saviour of mankind' which is frankly just as tedious as the 'Eldar swoop in to save the day' trope.

Well he clearly wasn't flawless enough to lose in a fight with another Primarch...

I'll also never get this "being good is boring" argument, especially in 40k. Perhaps it's just me, but in a universe where the majority of people are s, seeing speckles of good under all the dirt can be refreshing, and brings forward the ever so crucial theme of hope in this universe. Besides, Primarchs were meant to be perfect humans in both body and spirit; we can have at least one of them turning out as proposed, right?



Anyways, that was too much writing for me to bear, and I doubt that will change anyone's opinions on *insert jokey alternate name for Roboute Guilliman here* returning. PM's open for lighter discussion on the matter.

G.A

 Quarterdime wrote:
The Crimson Slaughter.

Games Workshop decided to finally develop a new Chaos Warband, and the best they could do were the equivalent of the droid army from the Star Wars prequels. 1 dimensional villains with barely any thought put into them that are just there to get blown away. I think that that's why they had to give Crimson Slaughter the extra attention... Just enough for people to care about them being blown away, except not really.

Interestingly, The Crimson Slaughter appear to be heavily inspired by John Blanche's own home brew renegade chapter as showcased in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Let's change the phrasing then - normal and approved of by the majority of the community.

Oh okay, so you're suggesting it's a reflexive conformist dislike of old Reboot Guillotine then? Despite the fact every person responding to this thread has given perfectly valid reasons for disliking The Rowboat, all subtly different from one another.

This sounds more like an opinion than actual fact on why the Primarchs shouldn't be returning, even though there has been the age old myth of them returning to fight during humanity's darkest hour.

... the Primarchs were done 10,000 years before M41. That's not "an opinion"; that's been the fluff since I first came in contact with it 23 years ago. The Horus Heresy split the Imperium down the middle during the time of the Primarchs, 10,000 years before the battle represented by the game you play today.

There's been myths of them returning, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the Primarchs were done with and the galaxy's narrative had advanced 10,000 years past them. Bringing them back is the worst hack laziness I can imagine with respect to advancement of this universe's narrative. If I wanted to read stupid stories about superheroes who can get lost in time and die repeatedly only to come back to life due to gak-ass timeline-bending and infantile creator/ fanboy attachments, I'd go and read comic books.

That's not what I want from 40k. I want the visceral, darkly humourous, OTT, baroque sci-fi world that I've enjoyed so much up to this point, not primary coloured superheroes with toilet seats painted all over them coming back to life and being Spiritual Lieges.

They could. Do they have to, though?

No - and they won't. That's my point. Age of Spiritual Liege incoming.

Save jumping the gun on that till it actually happens... if it does at all.

If it doesn't I'll drink my Lahmian Medium. I'll even live-stream it. I haven't been wrong about any of their Fall of Cadia narrative choices yet though, so I can't see me being wrong about this.

Warhammer 40,000: Age of Rowboat, in stores summer 2017.

 BBAP wrote:
Oh okay, so you're suggesting it's a reflexive conformist dislike of old Reboot Guillotine then? Despite the fact every person responding to this thread has given perfectly valid reasons for disliking The Rowboat, all subtly different from one another.

No?

It's definitely normal though.

I'd respect people's points about the return of Roboute Guilliman if they didn't fall into either "he's a goody two shoes" or if they weren't just a contest to see who can make the funniest alternate name to Roboute Guilliman, combined with the old tripe of Ultramarines being the worst thing to happen to 40k ever.

... the Primarchs were done 10,000 years before M41. That's not "an opinion"; that's been the fluff since I first came in contact with it 23 years ago. The Horus Heresy split the Imperium down the middle during the time of the Primarchs, 10,000 years before the battle represented by the game you play today.

There's been myths of them returning, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the Primarchs were done with and the galaxy's narrative had advanced 10,000 years past them. Bringing them back is the worst hack laziness I can imagine with respect to advancement of this universe's narrative.

I haven't personally seen anything that definitively said the Primarchs were done for; of the ones who weren't killed, or didn't become Greater Daemons, there was always the potential of them returning to the battlefields across the Imperium, one way or another.

I wouldn't compare the Primarchs to superheroes, even Guilliman. While they were meant to be more superhuman than superhuman, only one of them left alive actually turned out as an embodiment of strength in all areas. 1/20 is hardly a good score to conclude that they're superheroes who belong where they were left.

If I wanted to read stupid stories about superheroes who can get lost in time and die repeatedly only to come back to life due to gak-ass timeline-bending and infantile creator/ fanboy attachments, I'd go and read comic books.

I sincerely hope for the sake of my point here that nobody has an attachment that strong with a character in 40k that they couldn't stand to see them removed from the current lore.

Then again, some people have such an attachment to 40k races that they'll adopt their hatred for other races and the people who play/collect them, as well as addressing themselves as part of that race.

Kinda hard to take anyone's point seriously anymore...

My point is this: Guilliman's returned - even if we could reason that having a character such as Guilliman leaning more towards the idea of doing good in the world of 40k is utter heresy (spoiler - it isn't, and never will be in humanity), we'd still have to debate over both his significance and the context of his return, which we'll have to wait for. Hence why I think the bashing of Guilliman is mostly to reinforce that hatred of Toilet Marines; let's wait to see what the reasoning behind how a Primarch (who was locked in stasis) was able to recover to fight in this age for the Imperium before we go running around with that flag.

That's not what I want from 40k. I want the visceral, darkly humourous, OTT, baroque sci-fi world that I've enjoyed so much up to this point, not primary coloured superheroes with toilet seats painted all over them coming back to life and being Spiritual Lieges.

This is a point I'll never understand either; you make it sound like all that characterisation in 40k is gone because a "good guy" from another era has made a fairly predictable return to 40k.

Where has it gone exactly? I can still find all those, even with the return of Guilliman. Surely the return of a Primarch is an indication of how desperate the fight for survival in the Imperium has become, rather than a signpost for large amounts of "surviving against the odds".

No - and they won't. That's my point. Age of Spiritual Liege incoming.

I assume this is memes, not being very interested in AoS myself. Still, I don't see how one important character is going to have this dramatic impact on everything that makes 40k what it is.

If it doesn't I'll drink my Lahmian Medium. I'll even live-stream it. I haven't been wrong about any of their Fall of Cadia narrative choices yet though, so I can't see me being wrong about this.

Warhammer 40,000: Age of Rowboat, in stores summer 2017.

We'll both be disappointed either way, that's for sure.