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Earth127 wrote:
The massive amount of tyranids in a hive fleet is just as ridiculous logically as the 1000 space marines are a force to be reckoned with. Both can annoy me equally.

Well with the Tyranids it is a case of the idea is they are not a force to be reckoned with but completely overwhelming. The Tyranids making land fall is generally too late to save the target world, and it is normally get what you can off world and try to hurt as many as possible

It is only in the biggest of battles that you have Tyranids being beaten on a ground war

The most interesting thing about all of this debate is that nobody, not one person, has questioned the number of Astartes in a Legion. It's inconceivable to you that 1000 Astartes may accomplish anything of note, but nobody bats an eyelid at 100,000 in a Legion doing the same - because hey, that's 100 times more. However, the total number of Astartes in the Galaxy hasn't decreased - it's just got divided up a little. There are still 10 Legions worth of Loyalist Astartes knocking about, but somehow because they're divided up into smaller groups it's a breaks immersion more?

@Martel732 - I don't often find myself agreeing with Melissia, but it's all proportional. The enemy may have bigger weapons, but the Astartes also have better armour than almost anything in the Galaxy barring perhaps Necron living metal. Provided they're utilising their training and equipment in an effective manner, there's no reason they should be killed any easier than any other unit.

Similarly, it's quite naive to assume that an enemy would just nuke the Chapter and be done with it, because ultimately every 'enemy' race want's something from the person or planet they're attacking, be it Resources, Slaves, Territory, Food or even just a good fight. Simply nuking a planet from orbit eliminates any chance of getting at that - that's why Exterminatus is a last resort weapon and a weapon of denial rather than offensive action (Same as real world nukes). If the Eldar want a relic back, nuking defending Astartes risks destroying that relic. If the Tau want territory, then a ball of rock in space is no use to them. Rarely do any of these races fight each other just because they want to destroy each other - usually there's a motive behind the desire to destroy. Even Abaddon/Chaos wants more than to destroy the Imperium. He wants to rule over a twisted version of it and the Gods want the worship of all those human souls - destroying said souls serves no purpose to them.

Your argument can be turned on it's head by hypothesizing that the IoM could just as easily Exterminatus all the Tau, all the Orks, all the Eldar - but doing so destroys worlds with Tech, Resources and Living Space that the Imperium wants.

I read 'Promethean Sun' recently and in it

 Warpig1815 wrote:
The most interesting thing about all of this debate is that nobody, not one person, has questioned the number of Astartes in a Legion. It's inconceivable to you that 1000 Astartes may accomplish anything of note, but nobody bats an eyelid at 100,000 in a Legion doing the same - because hey, that's 100 times more. However, the total number of Astartes in the Galaxy hasn't decreased - it's just got divided up a little. There are still 10 Legions worth of Loyalist Astartes knocking about, but somehow because they're divided up into smaller groups it's a breaks immersion more?

I believe it was pointed out earlier that the Legion should also be made larger, but that isn't the point you are making.

And if you go on the old fluff GW used, there wouldn't be the same number of Marines today as there was then, because there were only "One thousand Chapters of One thousand Marines." Where all those extra Legionaries went is anyone's guess.

"Similarly, it's quite naive to assume that an enemy would just nuke the Chapter and be done with it, because ultimately every 'enemy' race want's something from the person or planet they're attacking, be it Resources, Slaves, Territory, Food or even just a good fight. "

I don't buy this argument at all. The galaxy is huge, and automatons can be used to mine out radiated planets. If the marines are really "movie marines", I'd use strategic weapons without hesitation. There is nothing valuable enough to justify trying to fight such mary sues in a straight fight. Don't forget that there are non-radiation WMDs like thermobaric weapons.

100,000 K legions are likewise far too small.

"but the Astartes also have better armour than almost anything in the Galaxy barring perhaps Necron living meta"

Evidently not as good as Tau armor, either.

Could it have conceivably been the case that there weren't many more Loyalists left post-heresy? Even if there were more, the calculation could have been that "you're going to have 1000 bodies in future, no recruitment till you're no more than x% above that".

I don't buy this argument at all. The galaxy is huge, and automatons can be used to mine out radiated planets. If the marines are really "movie marines", I'd use strategic weapons without hesitation. There is nothing valuable enough to justify trying to fight such mary sues in a straight fight.

To answer that, the games we play - whatever scale - are presumably the ones when you can't. Ye olde Warhammer Siege said something similar when it came to the 40k section; that the galaxy had plenty of weaponry capable of annihilating any particular position. What you played were the times when you had to Take That Hill, so to speak.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Gonna have to agree with Martel here.

Even if they wouldn't all die, they would be very very quickly overwhelmed, even with some guard on the side. A gaunt is about equal to a guardsman, however, and there aren't trillions of respawning guardsman defending against tyranids.

Conservative estimates based on 4th edition-era fluff put the number of guardsmen at around a quadrillion, although you could probably fudge that down to the tens of trillions for a particular segmentum if you don't like big numbers. With mixed genders and substantial logistic trains, including families and hangers on, they are almost literally respawning.

Really? I stand corrected.

@VictorVonTzeentch - Ah, well if so, my apologies - I thought nobody had raised the point. I can guarantee though, that if you raised both Legions and Chapters by a magnitude of 10 - people would complain about Legions being too big.

As for the same no of Marines - if each Legion were 100,000 approx (Going by FW's numbers) - then 100,000 x 10 = 1 Million. 1000 Chapters x 1000 Marines = 1 Million. The only difference is that the IoM no longer has the other 10 traitor Legions on their side.

@Martel732 - If you nuke every agri-world, every garden-world, every hive world and every cardinal world because there's humans on it - where do the Tau live? What happens to Eldar Relics? Who do the Orks fight? What do the Tyranids eat? How the Chaos gods get souls?

If it makes sense to use strategic weapons on hard or difficult targets, then why isn't all of the world awash in Nuclear fallout after the Cold War - because strategic weapons don't leave behind habitable worlds.

EDIT:

Martel732 wrote:

Warpig1815 wrote:"but the Astartes also have better armour than almost anything in the Galaxy barring perhaps Necron living meta"

Evidently not as good as Tau armor, either.

If you're seriously suggesting that Tau body armour is superior to Necron Living metal, then respectfully I'm done. It's well established in 40k Lore, that the Necron's tech is far above anything any other race has accomplished to date. Ever.

Pilum wrote:
Could it have conceivably been the case that there weren't many more Loyalists left post-heresy? Even if there were more, the calculation could have been that "you're going to have 1000 bodies in future, no recruitment till you're no more than x% above that".

There is always that chance, thoough to have 1000 of 1000, they would have needed a million Marines to have survived the Heresy. Which thinking about it actually makes the 1,000 of 1,000 seem big at least Immediately post Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@VictorVonTzeentch - Ah, well if so, my apologies - I thought nobody had raised the point. I can guarentee though, that if you raised both Legions and Chapters by a magnitude of 10 - people would complain about Legions being too big.

For sure.

@VictorVonTzeentch - I doubt a full million Astartes survived, but after the Great Scouring, there did exist a period of relative peace. It takes roughly 55 years to build a SM Chapter, so even a few centuries peace could significantly boost SM numbers to around a million. Any more than that would be unlikely though due to the Codex and the declining state of the Imperium.

I would say rather than fluff itself, I hate mostly the retons that are inevitable in such a long running setting.

The Black Templer being codex-compliant is boring and accomplishes nothing.

Necrons... plenty of people have addressed that in this thread.

Tau moving away from sensible doctrines to Pacific Rim units. Next thing you know they will have a GMC with a sawblade melee weapon.

Eldrad being the master Eldar puppetmaster. They could have made his accomplishments be spread out over a couple of characters.l, rather we get a hero hammer vibe.

But abobe all, I hate about half of the Grey Knight fluff.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@VictorVonTzeentch - I doubt a full million Astartes survived, but after the Great Scouring, there did exist a period of relative peace. It takes roughly 55 years to build a SM Chapter, so even a few centuries peace could significantly boost SM numbers to around a million. Any more than that would be unlikely though due to the Codex and the declining state of the Imperium.

Its possible that Dorn, when he initiated the 3rd Founding, made the 1k of 1k addendum to the Codex. Though with out the exact numbers of Marines that survived, I think its safe to say the Bulk of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels, its hard to say how many were left.

Also there are two unnumbered Foundings listed on Lexicanum between the Second and Third.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I don't often find myself agreeing with Melissia

I know right? I think I hate Martel mostly for making me actually defend Space Marines.

 Quickjager wrote:


The Black Templer being codex-compliant is boring and accomplishes nothing.

They arent though, they were just bundled into the book.

I do believe that people are also forgetting that not every Chapter follows the codex to the letter.

the biggest example was the Imperial Fist were completely opposed to it so they made the Black Templars, who then went on crusades, don't have a standing base and don't adhere to the codex (especially on troop limits)

There isn't a lot of oversight for Spacemarines they are like the Mechanicum in that sense. While the Codex does exists there isn't really anyone to enforce it

 Melissia wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I don't often find myself agreeing with Melissia

I know right? I think I hate Martel mostly for making me actually defend Space Marines.

Hell must be pretty chilly lately.

Melissia wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I don't often find myself agreeing with Melissia

I know right? I think I hate Martel mostly for making me actually defend Space Marines.

Ha - I just about bloody choked when I realised we were on the same page. Heh, next thing you know, they'll be bringing back Primarchs! Wait a moment...

@VictorVonTzeentch -

Lexicanum wrote:Note: The Black Templars were stated to be 5,000-6,000 strong in the 4th Edition Codex. However in the 2014 Novel Eternal Crusader, they were stated to be Codex compliant, with 1,000 Battle-Brothers. Author Guy Haley went on to state on his blog that the Black Templars numbers are variable depending on the time of the setting and story requirements.

Source: Guy Haley's blog. This sucks - being huge was what made the BTs interesting :(

But that's the thing though. I mostly hate the parody of themselves that Space Marines have become, mostly because of 30k (though there was some of this before that became a big thing).

Space Marines are living weapons, shaped by the culture of the chapter or warband. As much as I like to mock the Grey Knights and their baby carrier and will continue to do so for the forseeable future, one thing that came from their lore is, what I feel, to be the most Space Marine thing ever said:

We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy - the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember. We will hurt it so badly that it will never forget us until the stars burn out and the Emperor vanquishes it at the end of time. When Chaos is dying, its last thought will be of us. That is our memorial - carved into the heart of Chaos. We cannot lose, Grey Knights. We have already won.

At their best, Space Marines are living weapons. They will fight the enemy as if they had both nothing to lose for death in the emperor's name is no disgrace, and as if they had everything to lose for victory in the Emperor's name is sacred. They will fight the enemy as if there was no chance for victory for who knows what horror they will face next, and yet also fight as if victory was assured for they know no fear.

They know victory is not assured. That death in service to the emperor is inevitable. They are doomed to fight and die in His name. And they know it. The point isn't how badass their victories are. But how they face each and every battle.

 Warpig1815 wrote:


@VictorVonTzeentch -

Lexicanum wrote:Note: The Black Templars were stated to be 5,000-6,000 strong in the 4th Edition Codex. However in the 2014 Novel Eternal Crusader, they were stated to be Codex compliant, with 1,000 Battle-Brothers. Author Guy Haley went on to state on his blog that the Black Templars numbers are variable depending on the time of the setting and story requirements.

Source: Guy Haley's blog. This sucks - being huge was what made the BTs interesting :(

ADB puts their numbers at around 6,000, so I am more inclined to go with his estimates in this world of ever differing author opinions.

 Warpig1815 wrote:

@Martel732 - If you nuke every agri-world, every garden-world, every hive world and every cardinal world because there's humans on it - where do the Tau live? What happens to Eldar Relics? Who do the Orks fight? What do the Tyranids eat? How the Chaos gods get souls?

If it makes sense to use strategic weapons on hard or difficult targets, then why isn't all of the world awash in Nuclear fallout after the Cold War - because strategic weapons don't leave behind habitable worlds.

Strategic-level warheads do not necessarily entail uninhabitable results in the 41st millenium, just widespread destruction. It may change the landscape, or it may not, but the limitations of 20th century strategic weapons are an odd thing to presume for the likes of 40k technologies/biologies.

Martel732 wrote:

Warpig1815 wrote:"but the Astartes also have better armour than almost anything in the Galaxy barring perhaps Necron living meta"

Evidently not as good as Tau armor, either.

If you're seriously suggesting that Tau body armour is superior to Necron Living metal, then respectfully I'm done. It's well established in 40k Lore, that the Necron's tech is far above anything any other race has accomplished to date. Ever.

I think you're misreading him. The comparison he seems to be making is between Astartes and Tau armor.

Per the Warhammer 40k wikia (yes, not the best of sources):

When it comes to damage deflection and mitigation, Fio'tak is comparable to the ceramite used in Space Marine Power Armour, but weighs substantially less on a per unit basis.

Actual fluff interactions tend to strongly suggest that the entry is incorrect, however - Astartes ceramite has a better track record of shrugging off the likes of Bolters and such, while even Tau Battlesuit armor, well... not so much.

Krieg wants a word with you.

@Unusual Suspect - Well, again my apologies if I misunderstood Martel's point. I'd still point out that Tau armour, whilst it may have properties similar to ceramite, is not powered and does not have the same coverage as PA. It may be as durable, granted, but in terms of battlefield effectiveness that's irrelevant if the blade/bullet goes into an unprotected area.

As for strategic weapons - I guess that's a matter of scale. I assume that like all other weapons, 'Nukes' are more potent in 40k than now, even if they function the same way (Which is a big If, I know).

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Martel here. Even if Marine physiology and armour is every bit as tough as the fluff makes out to be, 1000 bodies is an utter drop in the ocean on a galactic scale conflict.

Lets break it down really basically. Even if Marines are are tough as the books make them out to be, you have to also agree that the enemies they face possess weapons formidable enough to kill Marines in a reasonable quantity. Otherwise there'd be no story at all and the Marines would just steamroll over the galaxy.

So, we can at least say that roughly the weapons each faction possesses are near enough to equal to make them comparable on a battlefield. In the Battle of the Somme, two roughly technologically comparable forces fought each other in the sort of total-war scenario that 40k faces on a daily basis. There were 57,470 British casualties on the first day.

57,470. In a single day.

Now, before you go on saying 'but that's was just normal humans, Marines are tougher', the enemies they face are comparably worse enough to even the odds, as we've explained earlier.

Then, you consider that The Somme was a single battle, occurring on a single planet. There are multiple battles occurring daily on probably millions of different planets all across the Imperium. That is why the '1000 Marines per chapter' thing is utterly ridiculous, regardless of how tough they are. Unless you had a million different chapters, they'd be utterly insignificant. Even if they were for 'surgical strikes', the casualties they would sustain in order to make a dent on any of the galactic-scale battles occurring in 40k would wipe them out in fairly short order.

The only reason I can think of why '1000' was chosen as a number is as a historical reference to the composition of Roman Legions.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Martel here. Even if Marine physiology and armour is every bit as tough as the fluff makes out to be, 1000 bodies is an utter drop in the ocean on a galactic scale conflict.

Lets break it down really basically. Even if Marines are are tough as the books make them out to be, you have to also agree that the enemies they face possess weapons formidable enough to kill Marines in a reasonable quantity. Otherwise there'd be no story at all and the Marines would just steamroll over the galaxy.

So, we can at least say that roughly the weapons each faction possesses are near enough to equal to make them comparable on a battlefield. In the Battle of the Somme, two roughly technologically comparable forces fought each other in the sort of total-war scenario that 40k faces on a daily basis. There were 57,470 British casualties on the first day.

57,470. In a single day.

Now, before you go on saying 'but that's was just normal humans, Marines are tougher', the enemies they face are comparably worse enough to even the odds, as we've explained earlier.

Then, you consider that The Somme was a single battle, occurring on a single planet. There are multiple battles occurring daily on probably millions of different planets all across the Imperium. That is why the '1000 Marines per chapter' thing is utterly ridiculous, regardless of how tough they are. Unless you had a million different chapters, they'd be utterly insignificant. Even if they were for 'surgical strikes', the casualties they would sustain in order to make a dent on any of the galactic-scale battles occurring in 40k would wipe them out in fairly short order.

The only reason I can think of why '1000' was chosen as a number is as a historical reference to the composition of Roman Legions.

Then you remember that this is a fictional universe with superpowers and daemons, that requires a good deal of suspension of disbelief in order for it to apply at all.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Martel here. Even if Marine physiology and armour is every bit as tough as the fluff makes out to be, 1000 bodies is an utter drop in the ocean on a galactic scale conflict.

Lets break it down really basically. Even if Marines are are tough as the books make them out to be, you have to also agree that the enemies they face possess weapons formidable enough to kill Marines in a reasonable quantity. Otherwise there'd be no story at all and the Marines would just steamroll over the galaxy.

So, we can at least say that roughly the weapons each faction possesses are near enough to equal to make them comparable on a battlefield. In the Battle of the Somme, two roughly technologically comparable forces fought each other in the sort of total-war scenario that 40k faces on a daily basis. There were 57,470 British casualties on the first day.

57,470. In a single day.

Now, before you go on saying 'but that's was just normal humans, Marines are tougher', the enemies they face are comparably worse enough to even the odds, as we've explained earlier.

Then, you consider that The Somme was a single battle, occurring on a single planet. There are multiple battles occurring daily on probably millions of different planets all across the Imperium. That is why the '1000 Marines per chapter' thing is utterly ridiculous, regardless of how tough they are. Unless you had a million different chapters, they'd be utterly insignificant. Even if they were for 'surgical strikes', the casualties they would sustain in order to make a dent on any of the galactic-scale battles occurring in 40k would wipe them out in fairly short order.

The only reason I can think of why '1000' was chosen as a number is as a historical reference to the composition of Roman Legions.

There's those that understand scale and those that don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Martel here. Even if Marine physiology and armour is every bit as tough as the fluff makes out to be, 1000 bodies is an utter drop in the ocean on a galactic scale conflict.

Lets break it down really basically. Even if Marines are are tough as the books make them out to be, you have to also agree that the enemies they face possess weapons formidable enough to kill Marines in a reasonable quantity. Otherwise there'd be no story at all and the Marines would just steamroll over the galaxy.

So, we can at least say that roughly the weapons each faction possesses are near enough to equal to make them comparable on a battlefield. In the Battle of the Somme, two roughly technologically comparable forces fought each other in the sort of total-war scenario that 40k faces on a daily basis. There were 57,470 British casualties on the first day.

57,470. In a single day.

Now, before you go on saying 'but that's was just normal humans, Marines are tougher', the enemies they face are comparably worse enough to even the odds, as we've explained earlier.

Then, you consider that The Somme was a single battle, occurring on a single planet. There are multiple battles occurring daily on probably millions of different planets all across the Imperium. That is why the '1000 Marines per chapter' thing is utterly ridiculous, regardless of how tough they are. Unless you had a million different chapters, they'd be utterly insignificant. Even if they were for 'surgical strikes', the casualties they would sustain in order to make a dent on any of the galactic-scale battles occurring in 40k would wipe them out in fairly short order.

The only reason I can think of why '1000' was chosen as a number is as a historical reference to the composition of Roman Legions.

Then you remember that this is a fictional universe with superpowers and daemons, that requires a good deal of suspension of disbelief in order for it to apply at all.

Just because its fiction, doesn't mean it has to be total nonsense. 1K marines per chapter is total nonsense.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Spoiler:

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Martel here. Even if Marine physiology and armour is every bit as tough as the fluff makes out to be, 1000 bodies is an utter drop in the ocean on a galactic scale conflict.

Lets break it down really basically. Even if Marines are are tough as the books make them out to be, you have to also agree that the enemies they face possess weapons formidable enough to kill Marines in a reasonable quantity. Otherwise there'd be no story at all and the Marines would just steamroll over the galaxy.

So, we can at least say that roughly the weapons each faction possesses are near enough to equal to make them comparable on a battlefield. In the Battle of the Somme, two roughly technologically comparable forces fought each other in the sort of total-war scenario that 40k faces on a daily basis. There were 57,470 British casualties on the first day.

57,470. In a single day.

Now, before you go on saying 'but that's was just normal humans, Marines are tougher', the enemies they face are comparably worse enough to even the odds, as we've explained earlier.

Then, you consider that The Somme was a single battle, occurring on a single planet. There are multiple battles occurring daily on probably millions of different planets all across the Imperium. That is why the '1000 Marines per chapter' thing is utterly ridiculous, regardless of how tough they are. Unless you had a million different chapters, they'd be utterly insignificant. Even if they were for 'surgical strikes', the casualties they would sustain in order to make a dent on any of the galactic-scale battles occurring in 40k would wipe them out in fairly short order.

The only reason I can think of why '1000' was chosen as a number is as a historical reference to the composition of Roman Legions.

Then you remember that this is a fictional universe with superpowers and daemons, that requires a good deal of suspension of disbelief in order for it to apply at all.

True, although just because you'll happily suspend your disbelief over one thing, doesn't mean you will over another.

Extreme example, but I'm more than willing to suspend my disbelief over the 40k universe regarding a civilisation of technologically augmented humans from Mars.

I'm not willing to supend my disbelief if someone is claiming that Roboute Guilliman is actually a reincarnated Rainbow Dash from My Little Pony.

Suspension of disbelief is something to be carefully crafted by making things close enough to be just about believable, but still fantastical enough to fulfill the desire for world-building from the author. For some people, that will encompass '1000 marines per chapter' and that's absolutely fine. That doesn't, however, make it any more believable when viewed critically even within the framework of the 40k universe itself.

I was more pointing out as commentary on the conversation in general, but yes, I get what you're saying.

@Ynneadwraith - I'll agree on that point somewhat, but you do have to consider that almost all battles hinge on small units performing small tasks in concert to affect a larger operation. While I do think 1000 Astartes is an appropriate number (Just IMHO), I'm under absolutely no illusion that Marines alone are saving the Galaxy single-handed - that's just stupid. I just think that for a unit of shock troops intended to take out vital targets and redploy to the next priority, then 1000 or so isn't that bad. If anything, it's the fault of GW's fixation on plugging SMs, that make people assume that the Astartes are unkillable troops that take on whole campaigns single handed. They're more like the SAS or Royal Marines - small unit, elite troops that can take on the hardest targets, but they simply can't put down a war single handed, no matter how good they are.

Oh, and Roman Legions were about 5000-6000 in number, so I doubt GW got the 1000 from there.

EDIT: And I do agree over the suspension of disbelief point. essentially, this all boils down to (hopefully) an amicable disagreement on viewpoints. I'm alright with 1000 Marines in a Chapter, because it works out in my head. However, if you disagree, then that's fine too because it doesn't work that way in your head canon. None of us debating this is 100% right - that's just life..

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:

@Martel732 - If you nuke every agri-world, every garden-world, every hive world and every cardinal world because there's humans on it - where do the Tau live? What happens to Eldar Relics? Who do the Orks fight? What do the Tyranids eat? How the Chaos gods get souls?

If it makes sense to use strategic weapons on hard or difficult targets, then why isn't all of the world awash in Nuclear fallout after the Cold War - because strategic weapons don't leave behind habitable worlds.

Strategic-level warheads do not necessarily entail uninhabitable results in the 41st millenium, just widespread destruction. It may change the landscape, or it may not, but the limitations of 20th century strategic weapons are an odd thing to presume for the likes of 40k technologies/biologies.

Martel732 wrote:

Warpig1815 wrote:"but the Astartes also have better armour than almost anything in the Galaxy barring perhaps Necron living meta"

Evidently not as good as Tau armor, either.

If you're seriously suggesting that Tau body armour is superior to Necron Living metal, then respectfully I'm done. It's well established in 40k Lore, that the Necron's tech is far above anything any other race has accomplished to date. Ever.

I think you're misreading him. The comparison he seems to be making is between Astartes and Tau armor.

Per the Warhammer 40k wikia (yes, not the best of sources):

When it comes to damage deflection and mitigation, Fio'tak is comparable to the ceramite used in Space Marine Power Armour, but weighs substantially less on a per unit basis.

Actual fluff interactions tend to strongly suggest that the entry is incorrect, however - Astartes ceramite has a better track record of shrugging off the likes of Bolters and such, while even Tau Battlesuit armor, well... not so much.

This. Why I'd compare Tau to Necrons, I have no idea. As I've stated before, movie marines aren't viable due to the Ogre limit, and non-movie marines get multiple chapters wiped in one outing vs Tau. The marines are hero-wishfulfilment. Just look at all the novels about these guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Ynneadwraith - I'll agree on that point somewhat, but you do have to consider that almost all battles hinge on small units performing small tasks in concert to affect a larger operation. While I do think 1000 Astartes is an appropriate number (Just IMHO), I'm under absolutely no illusion that Marines alone are saving the Galaxy single-handed - that's just stupid. I just think that for a unit of shock troops intended to take out vital targets and redploy to the next priority, then 1000 or so isn't that bad. If anything, it's the fault of GW's fixation on plugging SMs, that make people assume that the Astartes are unkillable troops that take on whole campaigns single handed. They're more like the SAS or Royal Marines - small unit, elite troops that can take on the hardest targets, but they simply can't put down a war single handed, no matter how good they are.

Oh, and Roman Legions were about 5000-6000 in number, so I doubt GW got the 1000 from there.

The Royal marines had far more than 1K members and they were limited to one nation of one planet.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:


@VictorVonTzeentch -

Lexicanum wrote:Note: The Black Templars were stated to be 5,000-6,000 strong in the 4th Edition Codex. However in the 2014 Novel Eternal Crusader, they were stated to be Codex compliant, with 1,000 Battle-Brothers. Author Guy Haley went on to state on his blog that the Black Templars numbers are variable depending on the time of the setting and story requirements.

Source: Guy Haley's blog. This sucks - being huge was what made the BTs interesting :(

ADB puts their numbers at around 6,000, so I am more inclined to go with his estimates in this world of ever differing author opinions.

Did the ADB novel come out after the blog?

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Ynneadwraith - I'll agree on that point somewhat, but you do have to consider that almost all battles hinge on small units performing small tasks in concert to affect a larger operation. While I do think 1000 Astartes is an appropriate number (Just IMHO), I'm under absolutely no illusion that Marines alone are saving the Galaxy single-handed - that's just stupid. I just think that for a unit of shock troops intended to take out vital targets and redploy to the next priority, then 1000 or so isn't that bad. If anything, it's the fault of GW's fixation on plugging SMs, that make people assume that the Astartes are unkillable troops that take on whole campaigns single handed. They're more like the SAS or Royal Marines - small unit, elite troops that can take on the hardest targets, but they simply can't put down a war single handed, no matter how good they are.

Oh, and Roman Legions were about 5000-6000 in number, so I doubt GW got the 1000 from there.

EDIT: And I do agree over the suspension of disbelief point. essentially, this all boils down to (hopefully) an amicable disagreement on viewpoints. I'm alright with 1000 Marines in a Chapter, because it works out in my head. However, if you disagree, then that's fine too because it doesn't work that way in your head canon. None of us debating this is 100% right - that's just life..

The only way for Shield of Baal to make ANY sense is for Karlaen to be in charge of millions of Blood Angels. Even with that many, that hive fleet would be almost impossible to defeat.