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So from what I can gather, Ynnead is a god forming in all of the infinity circuits in the galaxy at once... but how? How could a chaos god form in realspace? If it can and is, how is it using all infinity circuits at once? It's in realspace now---all that warp-y macguffin-y nonsense is no longer in play. Is this an error? I feel like the best explanation for this would be that Ynnead is a god feeding off of all of the still living souls of the Eldar, but still in the warp. I just don't see it written that way, though.
Also, how would Ynnead kill Slaanesh? Slaanesh has assimilated the souls of an entire galaxy's worth of Eldar, and all of his/her countless mortal worshippers besides. That's huge. How could a few billion Eldar souls even manage to survive against Slaanesh, even in the form of a god?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/08 03:29:56
There's a bunch of warp mechanics we've had told to us but not really explained so everything I'm going to say is somewhat speculative and based off bits off fluff here and there. I'll answer the questions one by one.
How it's using all the infinity circuts: First of Ynnead isn't really formed in either realspace or the warp but rather in the in between area that's the webway. The eldar souls are kept from Slaanesh by being absorbed into the infinity circuts that are conbected by the webway, this goes for exodite Eldar as well as craftworlds Eldar. We know that souls have power in 40k but we don't really know how they work, only that when someone dies they enter the warp (which was formerly known as the "Empyrian" or "the realm of souls"). Souls are then commonly devoured by warp enteties. I'll leave that for now since we honestly don't know and move on to the next question.
How could a chaos god form in webway Space: The warp is a parallell dimension that's heavily influenced by realspace. What the Eldar have done is that they created an artificial dimension that serves similar purposes. Travelling, emotional reflections and storage of souls. Don't think of the warp as having a will of it's own but rather as an result of how it's been used. Somehow the similar usage of the Eldar circuts have created a similar effect as in the warp, the creation of an entity. Hence the strenght might actually come from the souls themselves instead of where they are craddled, who can say.
Is Ynnead an error: No. Ynnead lives in her own dimension where she's untouched by everyone except maybe the deciever and/or cheggorath who both might have a stake in her birth. She's feeding on both livinuand dead Eldar. The Eldar psyche works diffrently from ours in that they lock parts of it away behind a warriors mask. That's how they controll their urges and when they all put on their warrior masks they feel the same thing which probably effects and is only absorbed by Ynnead rather then the chaos gods.
How can Ynnead slay Slaanesh: when Slannesh was born he/she/it murdered the Eldar pantheon, beings that had been around since the necrontyr wars and had vast ammounts of time to be worshipped and nourished by the Eldar. Still they just got killed so clearly a gods streangth is not solely judged by how long they've been around. We also know the Emperor is known as "The anathema" in the warp and frihetens the gods so it's possible beings based on certain emotions (stoicm in big Es case) are more effective against other emotionally based enteties. This would make sense in accordance with the Emperors plan of "Imperial truth", to starved the gods of emotions. Ultimately Craftworld Eldar are the highest form of discipline and Stoicm so Ynnead might just be the perfect counter to the "natural" warp based gods.
There, quite the wall of text. Did it answer your questions?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 06:40:24
Robin5t wrote: If a few dozen shamans can form a being that can give the Chaos Gods pause, a few million Eldar can, too.
I've always held that as that's an event in the dim and distant (and most importantly mysterious) past that doesn't quite tell the whole story.
To me, the best explanation is this:
Shamans sacrifice themselves to form some sort of gestalt entity. This gestalt entity has precisely the amount of power that the shamans themselves had, and was not godlike. Just a smart guy (12 consciousnesses) with half-decent psyker potential. Story progresses exactly as we know it with the unification of Terra and various other bits and pieces. As the Imperium is forged, the combined belief of billions upon billions of humans builds in their God-Emperor, the divine savior of mankind. This belief is what provides the Emperor with his power to rival the Chaos Gods, as the belief of billions upon billions of psychic beings has power in the 40k universe.
It fixes so many things that otherwise make no sense at all.
1. How 12 random schmucks can come together to create a godlike entity in the warp, yet it takes the phenomenally psychic Eldar 10-12,000 years to birth Slaanesh.
2. How big E didn't just roflstomp all opposition on Terra instantly with his godlike powers. It's because at that point, he was just a relatively powerful dude not significantly more powerful than the other relatively powerful dudes.
3. How he was so terribly flawed during the Great Crusade, needed his Space Marines, and couldn't forsee the Heresy. It's because he was still just some dude, at that point buoyed up by the belief of billions, but not quite enough to elevate him to godlike status just yet.
I'm sure there are other things that make more sense with that interpretation. It fits so well
@nerak Those are some very good insights there
You could quite easily view the Infinity Circuit as a sort of shadowy dimension that has warp-like properties (i.e. can store souls) but is separate from the warp itself. Supporting that is the fact that daemonic entities are quite at home when they're lodged into an infinity circuit, and require the little Wraithbone Spiders to hunt them down it's because they're similar structures.
However, I don't think the webway connects the Infinity Circuits. They've always been depicted as being isolated within each Craftworld. So, you've got the consciousness of a God split in dozens of separate places. When Eldrad attempts to kick-start Ynnead in Death Masque he tries to drain all the Infinity Circuits into the crystal moon of Coheria. Perhaps the process of connection to that moon allowed enough connection between the souls in the various Infinity Circuits to reach some level of consciousness.
Think of it like AI. A hundred really clever computers that are able to learn individually might not yet qualify as a conscious intelligence. However, connect them all into a network of learning computers and they might just reach the threshold of intelligence where they reach consciousness.
It adds some really interesting possible interactions with Ynnari and other Eldar. Perhaps we'll see radical sects of Ynnari intentionally trying to destroy Craftworlds to release/siphon off the Infinity Circuits and bring Ynnead closer to its true birth.
Robin5t wrote: If a few dozen shamans can form a being that can give the Chaos Gods pause, a few million Eldar can, too.
I've always held that as that's an event in the dim and distant (and most importantly mysterious) past that doesn't quite tell the whole story.
To me, the best explanation is this:
Shamans sacrifice themselves to form some sort of gestalt entity. This gestalt entity has precisely the amount of power that the shamans themselves had, and was not godlike. Just a smart guy (12 consciousnesses) with half-decent psyker potential. Story progresses exactly as we know it with the unification of Terra and various other bits and pieces. As the Imperium is forged, the combined belief of billions upon billions of humans builds in their God-Emperor, the divine savior of mankind. This belief is what provides the Emperor with his power to rival the Chaos Gods, as the belief of billions upon billions of psychic beings has power in the 40k universe.
It fixes so many things that otherwise make no sense at all.
1. How 12 random schmucks can come together to create a godlike entity in the warp, yet it takes the phenomenally psychic Eldar 10-12,000 years to birth Slaanesh.
2. How big E didn't just roflstomp all opposition on Terra instantly with his godlike powers. It's because at that point, he was just a relatively powerful dude not significantly more powerful than the other relatively powerful dudes.
3. How he was so terribly flawed during the Great Crusade, needed his Space Marines, and couldn't forsee the Heresy. It's because he was still just some dude, at that point buoyed up by the belief of billions, but not quite enough to elevate him to godlike status just yet.
I'm sure there are other things that make more sense with that interpretation. It fits so well
@nerak Those are some very good insights there
You could quite easily view the Infinity Circuit as a sort of shadowy dimension that has warp-like properties (i.e. can store souls) but is separate from the warp itself. Supporting that is the fact that daemonic entities are quite at home when they're lodged into an infinity circuit, and require the little Wraithbone Spiders to hunt them down it's because they're similar structures.
However, I don't think the webway connects the Infinity Circuits. They've always been depicted as being isolated within each Craftworld. So, you've got the consciousness of a God split in dozens of separate places. When Eldrad attempts to kick-start Ynnead in Death Masque he tries to drain all the Infinity Circuits into the crystal moon of Coheria. Perhaps the process of connection to that moon allowed enough connection between the souls in the various Infinity Circuits to reach some level of consciousness.
Think of it like AI. A hundred really clever computers that are able to learn individually might not yet qualify as a conscious intelligence. However, connect them all into a network of learning computers and they might just reach the threshold of intelligence where they reach consciousness.
It adds some really interesting possible interactions with Ynnari and other Eldar. Perhaps we'll see radical sects of Ynnari intentionally trying to destroy Craftworlds to release/siphon off the Infinity Circuits and bring Ynnead closer to its true birth.
There were a lot more than 12 shamans that died to make the Emperor. All the shamans of humanity died and reincarnated in the being that was the Emperor, and their kind passed from the Earth.
The Infinity Circuits have been depicted as linked, not isolated.
His mind passed out further along the strands of the Infinity Circuit, passing across the barriers between the stars to hear the thoughts of other Infinity Circuits on distant craftworlds, linked by the immense Eternal Matrix.
He pulled away even further, to listen to the whole of the ELdar race from afar. It was faint but Eldrad fancied that he could make out a rhythm within the seemingly anarchic cachophony of a billion dead spirits; a dim pulsing, like a distant and terribly slow heartbeat. Without the babble of each and every spirit interfering, Eldrad could feel the greater unconsciousness that lay behind; like the mind of some vast entity that was still very much dormant. For countless generations that pulse had grown stronger and for untold generations to come it would continue to quicken and grow.
Eldrad knew that he would not be truly alive when that time came, nor would his successors for a hundred lifetimes. In a moment of doubt, he wondered if it would ever come or whether they were all fools to believe there could be any escape from She Who Thirsts. Perhaps they would all die first, their distant dream unfulfilled. Perhaps he would not be strong enough. Thrusting aside these negative thoughts, Eldrad forced himself to believe that the ancient prophecies would come true. Once more he listened to that ponderous pulsing and he smiled again.
This was Ynnead, god of the dead. Ynnead, the last hope of the Eldar.
p.17, 3rd edition Codex: Craftworld Eldar
That is the first time Ynnead's name is mentioned. Eldrad clearly also has many of the same doubts about Ynnead as the OP, but clearly Eldrad also decided to be more proactive and hasten Ynnead's awakening.
What I don't think has been explained however is that given Ynnead is an entity formed by the Craftworld Eldar's Infinity Circuits, why Ynnead, in the form of the Yncarne, is not more clearly Craftworld Eldar in aesthetics and in ideals. Even if Ynnead intends to be the salvation of all Eldar, it is still formed from souls that walked the Path system, and Craftworlders still take a dim view of the Dark Eldar, whose depredations are not limited to non-Eldar. While the Craftworld Eldar view the other races of the galaxy as lesser beings, like animals, they view the Dark Eldar as nasty people and certainly the behavior of the Dark Eldar is essentially that of unrepentent Eldar from the Fall. In the Path of the Warrior novel, there is a Dark Eldar adopting the life of the Craftworld Eldar. He is even saved by a Phoenix Lord because his existence is an ideological victory and vindication of the Path system. The Craftworld Eldar may not be directly trying to war upon the Dark Eldar physically, but they clearly view their own way of life as superior and preferable. Of course, the Dark Eldar disagree and have their own views. I would have figured a Ynnead formed from Craftworld Eldar souls would demand conversion to the Path system as its price for saving the Dark Eldar.
Just how or why the Eldar hope and believe Ynnead can win against Slaanesh is not known so far (unless the new book reveals it).
Ynnead has lost souls from things like Craftworlds dying or having their Infinity Circuits consumed, such as the incidents in the Tyranid and Chaos Daemons Codices. Also as revealed in the Dark Eldar Codex, only a small number of the total number of Craftworlds that were originally built actually survived the Fall. Ynnead is being formed from a vastly compromised population base, even though individual Eldar souls may be stronger than human souls.
Slaanesh is the weakest of the Big 4 but that is like saying someone is one of the poorest of the multi-billionaires. They are still vastly more powerful than just about anything and are only weaker in comparison to a small number of peers. Slaanesh has cults all over the Imperium and daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. How many billions of humans does that add up to? How much stronger does an Eldar soul have to be to have any hope of evening out such a massive difference in numbers? Twice as strong? 10x as strong? 100x? 1000x? 10000x? The Eldar are more psychic than humans but it is far fetched to expect all Eldar souls to be that many orders of magnitude stronger than the human soul.
Slaanesh is like the guy earning a million pennies vs. Ynnead the guy earning a thousand dollars.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/08 13:44:07
Even if every single human being on earth at that point was a Shaman that sacrificed themselves, it's still a drop in the ocean of psychic potential compared to the psychic emanations of a near-galaxy-spanning empire of psychically gifted individuals. It's the old GW issue of scale again.
Interesting. I haven't heard of the Infinity Circuits being linked before. That quote is very interesting. I wonder what he means precisely by 'Eternal Matrix'. Not a structure I've heard described. Would be interesting to hear possible explanations of what it might be.
I also think a lot of things about Ynnead's appearance is suspect to say the least, which makes the potential character of the nascent God very interesting to me
They say that the Slaaneshi-look to it is because that's what Eldar God-constructs look like...but there's a good chance that Khaine is an eldar God-construct and he doesn't look Slaaneshi. As you say, why is it that an entity comprised entirely of Craftworld souls also reflects the Dark Eldar (and welcomes them into their midst). Why is it that the new Soulburst rule that Ynnari have triggers when a unit of any species dies, rather than just an Eldar one. Surely if it's a being formed from Eldar souls, it would have no interest in the souls of other beings...
Something's fishy, and I love it from a fluff perspective
As for the relative power against Slaanesh I agree as well. There's something somewhere about Cegorach's Grand Plan involving tricking Slaanesh into expending her power to save the Eldar rather than destroy them. That sounds like a more likely outcome than a straight-out punch-up (which their God of War couldn't win). Given that warp dieties represent a portion of a race's psyche, and destroying them is sort of metaphorical for their state in the materium...I wonder what would happen if you killed a race's God of Death. Would they all die? Would none of them be able to die at all?
Interesting...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 13:55:26
Interesting. I haven't heard of the Infinity Circuits being linked before. That quote is very interesting. I wonder what he means precisely by 'Eternal Matrix'. Not a structure I've heard described. Would be interesting to hear possible explanations of what it might be.
It is the webway, as described in the novel Path of the Seer multiple times.
Just one instance:
...she was content to wander by herself, glorying in the ever-widening branches of the infinity circuit as it traversed the galaxy.
p.159, Path of the Seer novel
Basically ships and Craftworlds where spirit stones are mounted and clustered together are nodes of Eldar soul energy, with ships being obviously mobile nodes. The pathways of the infinity circuit extend into the webway and appear to be part of the structure of the webway itself, and the main character of the novel in a moment of "astral projection" from her body wanders along the circuits that go into the webway and goes far enough in fact to get lost.
So, what happens when a Dark Eldar dies within the webway? Does it suggest that the webway itself is the Infinity Matrix, because that raises some very odd questions that I don't think the author would have thought through the implications of.
If they're just connected through the webway that might make more sense.
I was always under the impression that the Webway was sort of located in the Warp, so to speak. It's how time and space is compacted in such a way to permit interstellar travel without spaceships being completely necessary.
To use an illustration, it's like having billions of airtight tubes crisscrossing an ocean of infinite size. Some tubes lead to locations, others to nodes which many tubes lead away from, and others still to vast empty spaces in which you can construct cities and suchlike. As long as the tubes remain airtight, the water is kept at bay. When the Fall occurred, many of those tubes were shattered, allowing the metaphorical water or Warp to pour in. But due to the nature of the construction of the Webway, those individual tubes can be isolated, sealed, and locked down.
When the Emperor started constructing his own 'tube', he was working very carefully and slowly to extend it to a known access point in the Webway Network. But then Magnus crashed in with his level of OTT psychic force, overwhelmed the warp defences, and exposed the open gateway to the Warp around it (causing the daemons of chaos to pour through the breach he made).
Extrapolating from the above, it makes sense that if you die in the Webway, your soul doesn't enter into the Warp. What keeps the Warp out of the Webway keeps your soul from reaching it. That's why the Dark Eldar can keep reincarnating, their souls are just sort of hanging around in limbo, so to speak. They exist in the same sort of spiritual state as Cegorach, who lurks about the place. Heck, it's why Cegorach never got eaten in the first place, because the Warp can't reach him there.
If the World Spirits and Infinity Circuits are hooked up in such a way as to be capable of linking into infinity circuit relays set throughout the Webway (and the fluff sources quote above would indicate that is so), then that means Ynnead is capable of drawing on them. Assuming Cegorach wasn't capable of doing so for some reason, all those spirits would have just been bouncing around the infinity circuits or reincarnating into new bodies, or being in wraithguard, and so forth previously. Now? Ynnead is like a big fat spider sitting at the middle of the web sucking up all those souls and getting bigger and bigger.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 15:03:23
I was always under the impression that the Webway was sort of located in the Warp, so to speak. It's how time and space is compacted in such a way to permit interstellar travel without spaceships being completely necessary.
To use an illustration, it's like having billions of airtight tubes crisscrossing an ocean of infinite size. Some tubes lead to locations, others to nodes which many tubes lead away from, and others still to vast empty spaces in which you can construct cities and suchlike. As long as the tubes remain airtight, the water is kept at bay. When the Fall occurred, many of those tubes were shattered, allowing the metaphorical water or Warp to pour in. But due to the nature of the construction of the Webway, those individual tubes can be isolated, sealed, and locked down.
When the Emperor started constructing his own 'tube', he was working very carefully and slowly to extend it to a known access point in the Webway Network. But then Magnus crashed in with his level of OTT psychic force, overwhelmed the warp defences, and exposed the open gateway to the Warp around it (causing the daemons of chaos to pour through the breach he made).
Extrapolating from the above, it makes sense that if you die in the Webway, your soul doesn't enter into the Warp. What keeps the Warp out of the Webway keeps your soul from reaching it. That's why the Dark Eldar can keep reincarnating, their souls are just sort of hanging around in limbo, so to speak. They exist in the same sort of spiritual state as Cegorach, who lurks about the place. Heck, it's why Cegorach never got eaten in the first place, because the Warp can't reach him there.
If the World Spirits and Infinity Circuits are hooked up in such a way as to be capable of linking into infinity circuit relays set throughout the Webway (and the fluff sources quote above would indicate that is so), then that means Ynnead is capable of drawing on them. Assuming Cegorach wasn't capable of doing so for some reason, all those spirits would have just been bouncing around the infinity circuits or reincarnating into new bodies, or being in wraithguard, and so forth previously. Now? Ynnead is like a big fat spider sitting at the middle of the web sucking up all those souls and getting bigger and bigger.
Pretty much bang on I especially like the image of Ynnead being like a big spider in the middle of a web collecting all of his souls to him...
Couple of little things though
I love your picture of the webway being like a latticework of little air tubes through the ocean. Great way of describing it. However, the webway is described as being in a sort of twilight-zone in the border between the warp and the materium. As such, it's like a latticework of little air tubes floating on the surface tension of the warp/semi submerged.
The soul not entering the warp if you die in the webway thing is odd. For the Dark Eldar, they still fear dying within the webway, and Slaanesh still claws at their souls (at a slower rate admittedly). Also, it wouldn't explain how a Dark Eldar that dies in realspace can be resurrected upon return of their remains to Commorragh as without the protection of the webway their souls would be instantly devoured.
I've read before that the way Dark Eldar survive through death is that as Eldar souls retain consciousness and cohesion after death, they can cling tenaciously to any remaining scrap of flesh, which can then be returned to Low Commorragh for regeneration (or snipped off in advance, offering an insurance policy).
So, from that it would appear that the webway is semi-permeable with effects from the warp. It's still a very bad idea for an Eldar to die in there, and Slaanesh can still claim their souls, but it does offer sanctuary from the worst of its effects.
That's why I think it's odd to have the Infinity Circuits running through the webway. Infinity Circuits are very, very precious repositories for eldar souls. Linking them through the webway would be fantastically risky as it's broken and crippled, allowing incursions from daemons and the predations of Slaanesh to seep through.
I think it's odd is all really. If the fluff states that they are then I suppose I must think of a way to rationalise the two together. Perhaps it's a tenuous link. A sort of cup-and-string setup where if you listen in one end you can hear the susserus of souls from other Infinity Circuits, but not something that souls can freely migrate across. Seems to work for me
The soul not entering the warp if you die in the webway thing is odd. For the Dark Eldar, they still fear dying within the webway, and Slaanesh still claws at their souls (at a slower rate admittedly). Also, it wouldn't explain how a Dark Eldar that dies in realspace can be resurrected upon return of their remains to Commorragh as without the protection of the webway their souls would be instantly devoured.
I've read before that the way Dark Eldar survive through death is that as Eldar souls retain consciousness and cohesion after death, they can cling tenaciously to any remaining scrap of flesh, which can then be returned to Low Commorragh for regeneration (or snipped off in advance, offering an insurance policy).
That might just be a side-effect from eating souls themselves; that their own souls are capable of cohesion for a longer period of time after expiration. So their soul just anchors itself to the body upon death, and they pray that whoever grabs the bits gets them into the webway quickly enough to avoid slaanesh!
A Farseer travelling the webway can still utilise his psychic powers, and new eldar born within it wouldn't be lacking souls. Likewise, a daemon riding a host into a part of the Webway wouldn't suddenly pop out of existence. So it being 'semi-permeable' would appear to hold water. But I think that the type of warp energy is the key in the distinction here. Anything that retains consciousness appears to be blocked from moving between the warp and the webway (otherwise daemons and slaanesh could get in), but raw energy appears to be permissible.
Theorising here, that would mean that assuming an Eldar soul gradually loses coherency after death regardless of whether it gets devoured by Slaanesh or not, there will come a point whereby it effectively just disintegrates after a period of time, and the scraps are gobbled up by Slaanesh as they leak from the Webway. Probably less painful than being eaten straight after death, but not much more pleasant.
It would also explain why the Dark Eldar like to stay in the webway and obsess about soul eating. It offers them a window of opportunity for resurrection, and the stronger the soul, the more time they have after death before the 'leakage' occurs.
With regards to the Infinity circuit, if there are just specific relays/connections that run down specific routes, they're not so much there for staorage as for soul transmission/travel. So if a section of the webway is compromised, that relay will get locked out along with that section of webway. Which sucks for any souls caught in it, but better to amputate a limb, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 16:22:57
I thought that one of the defining features of Eldar souls was that they retained cohesion and consciousness after death (presumably perpetually). That's part of the reason why it's so horrific for them to fall into the clutches of Slaanesh, because they're aware of it the whole time!
I could definitely buy all of that being true though makes a lot of sense
'The change that was wrought upon those Eldar sealed in the Webway was far more subtle. Rather than having their essence consumed in one great draught, their souls were slowly draining away into the Warp - consumed over time by Slaanesh....she waits hungrily upon the other side of the veil to claim each and every one of them.
So taking into account the established facts:-
-Slaanesh slowly drains the souls of even living Dark Eldar in the Webway through the permeable nature of the Webway.
-Eldar souls retain coherency after death for a period of time.
-Dark Eldar top up their souls with ones they've consumed to strengthen them against the constant soul sucking depredation of Slaanesh.
-The Infinity Circuit links into the Webway, but does not appear to store souls directly in it.
What this tells us is that an Eldar which dies in the Webway will gradually have its soul leak out of the Webway and consumed by Slaanesh. But this will not be an instant process, anymoreso than it is when they are alive, giving them time to resurrect, and get a soul 'top-up', so to speak.
The Infinity Circuit in turn, whilst connected in certain regards, likely is not used as a storage point because it is too risky (sections of the webway are always at risk from Chaos). It is possible that the necessary crystalline infrastructure for mass soul storage also does not exist within the webway to enable it.
So now we have Ynnead camped out in the Webway sucking up those Dark Eldar souls, likely before they can resurrect. So here's a thought; what are the odds the Dark Eldar are going to take kindly to their effective immortality ending? Instead now they'll be mashed into another gestalt entity. That would explain why Ynnead needs a prophet to insist that this a good thing. 'Seriously Guys, I'm telling you!'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 16:53:41
Iracundus wrote:
What I don't think has been explained however is that given Ynnead is an entity formed by the Craftworld Eldar's Infinity Circuits, why Ynnead, in the form of the Yncarne, is not more clearly Craftworld Eldar in aesthetics and in ideals. Even if Ynnead intends to be the salvation of all Eldar, it is still formed from souls that walked the Path system, and Craftworlders still take a dim view of the Dark Eldar, whose depredations are not limited to non-Eldar. While the Craftworld Eldar view the other races of the galaxy as lesser beings, like animals, they view the Dark Eldar as nasty people and certainly the behavior of the Dark Eldar is essentially that of unrepentent Eldar from the Fall. In the Path of the Warrior novel, there is a Dark Eldar adopting the life of the Craftworld Eldar. He is even saved by a Phoenix Lord because his existence is an ideological victory and vindication of the Path system. The Craftworld Eldar may not be directly trying to war upon the Dark Eldar physically, but they clearly view their own way of life as superior and preferable. Of course, the Dark Eldar disagree and have their own views. I would have figured a Ynnead formed from Craftworld Eldar souls would demand conversion to the Path system as its price for saving the Dark Eldar.
I can kind of see your point but I there's two things to add to this that might give it a little bit more sense. First is the Exodite Eldar, easily forgotten since they don't have a codex. The Exodites might very well outnumber the craftworld Eldar and does not neccesarily follow the path system. They are a sort of in between the dark and the crafotwld Eldars and also utilise infinity circuits as well as the webway. If the Exodites outnumber the craftworld Eldar it makes sence for less of them to have died, since the craftworlds have a natural affinity for war, however it also makes sence for their emotions to more affect the infinity circuits. There's simply more of them since they inhabit planets, not big spacecraft. The size of a craftworld is debatable but I doubt it outnumber a regular habitable planet in terms of possible inhabitants. Since they're a in between of craftworld and dark Eldar Ynnead might very well carry both aspects of the Eldar through them.
Second thing is the shape of the other four gods. They're not exactly an exact replica of their emotions, thus I think Ynnead has quite a bit of leanway in how she develops.
Iracundus wrote:
Slaanesh is the weakest of the Big 4 but that is like saying someone is one of the poorest of the multi-billionaires. They are still vastly more powerful than just about anything and are only weaker in comparison to a small number of peers. Slaanesh has cults all over the Imperium and daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. How many billions of humans does that add up to? How much stronger does an Eldar soul have to be to have any hope of evening out such a massive difference in numbers? Twice as strong? 10x as strong? 100x? 1000x? 10000x? The Eldar are more psychic than humans but it is far fetched to expect all Eldar souls to be that many orders of magnitude stronger than the human soul.
While this is true it's also true that the vast majority of souls don't go straight to the big four, but are rather caught up and devoured by their underlings. Greater deamons, lesser deamons, lesser enteties and so probably devour the majority of the souls passing on into the warp. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we simply don't know the correlation between streangth in the warp, souls consumed and souls value. In a WD during the second installment of cities of death (or well, the 2nd ed of cityfight) a planetary governor was rescued from a planet. In the fluff bit of te article it said a governor of a planet held a much more important soul for sacrifice to the dark gods then a civilian did. I'll be the first to admit the source is unreliable at best but it does point to the fact that we simply don't know how or in what way they work. Maybe the constant consumption of only eldar souls over a vast period of time has lead Ynnead to become a far more potent entity then any other being currently in exsistance? Maybe the Emperors consumption of only psykers is what's lead him to be able to challenge the chaos gods? Who can say.
We also don't know if a gift of chaos tax the gods in some way. Say if a mark of slaanesh is distributed to bend the laws of physics that governs us, does that draw straight from Slaanesh streanght and does recquire more souls in order to regain said power? If so then how many marines/cultists/worshippers actually give a +in energy for the god? What if said being is defeated and his soul is simply claimed by a rival god, minor entity or by the Emperor himself, will this result in a loss in investment for the god in question? There's numerous questions about the mechanics of the warp, the gods and the souls of sentient beings. IMO the Emperors greatest achievment was to reach knowledge of theese mechanics and put a galactic plan in motion to his advantage against the four. You won't find a whole lot of fellows who knows anything about theese things in 40k.
Also: WHAT ABOUT QUAH?
(Quahs the chaos god of the Hrud)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/08 17:13:20
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
While this is true it's also true that the vast majority of souls don't go straight to the big four, but are rather caught up and devoured by their underlings. Greater deamons, lesser deamons, lesser enteties and so probably devour the majority of the souls passing on into the warp.
The daemonic underlings of the gods are part of the gods. The gods are vast storms/patterns in the warp, and their domain is in reality part of the god itself. Nurgle is not just the entity in the decaying mansion in the middle of a lethal rotting garden. The mansion and garden are Nurgle as well. As given in the first Realms of Chaos books and repeated below, daemons are part of the god spun off and given consciousness and life of their own.
A Daemon is 'born' when a Chaos God gives up a little of its power to create a separate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the Warp. The Chaos power can reclaim the power and independence it has given to its Daemon children at any time, thus ensuring their loyalty. It is only through the loss of this power that a Daemon can be truly destroyed, it mind dissolving into the whirls and currents of Warpspace. p. 6-7, 1st Codex Daemons
Being of the god is also why daemons inherently reflect their god or some aspects of their god. Nurgle in particular is unique in that its Great Unclean Ones are miniature copies of Nurgle in its entirety with their own unique daemonic names, whereas the other Chaos god greater daemons encompass only a limited aspect of their god, explaining why they differ in appearance compared to the description of the primary form of their god.
Who can say. We also don't know if a gift of chaos tax the gods in some way. Say if a mark of slaanesh is distributed to bend the laws of physics that governs us, does that draw straight from Slaanesh streanght and does recquire more souls in order to regain said power? If so then how many marines/cultists/worshippers actually give a +in energy for the god? What if said being is defeated and his soul is simply claimed by a rival god, minor entity or by the Emperor himself, will this result in a loss in investment for the god in question? There's numerous questions about the mechanics of the warp, the gods and the souls of sentient beings. IMO the Emperors greatest achievment was to reach knowledge of theese mechanics and put a galactic plan in motion to his advantage against the four. You won't find a whole lot of fellows who knows anything about theese things in 40k.
Also: WHAT ABOUT QUAH?
(Quahs the chaos god of the Hrud)
Actually we do know. The original Realms of Chaos say that giving a Mark (and later Gifts) to a champion does expend energy and that defeat of this champion does weaken the god, although the amounts we are talking about appear to be tiny. This is given as rationale why the gods don't just Mark everyone who pledges to them. In Realms of Chaos, it says the gods engage in proxy contests between themselves by having their daemonic armies and champions fight for control of daemon worlds, though this is likened to wealthy misers gambling over coppers (like the two old rich guys making a $1 bet in the movie Trading Places). The gods, particularly Slaanesh, can also sometimes impose seemingly arbitrary or silly rules in an attempt to liven up their struggles such as allowing only use of natural weapons, or forbidding a certain color from the battlefield.
Qah was not a Chaos god, if we define the gods to be collections of psychic energy formed from the emanations of mortal races. Qah was the entity described in Xenology from an in-character unreliable source. Quah was implied to be a survivor of the War in Heaven and one of the last, maybe the last, Old One. Quah continued to tinker with races, including the Hrud, but then eventually for unclear reasons went into the warp, only to be torn asunder by Slaanesh, either with its birth or soon after. The fragments of Qah became the Umbra, a shadowy "species" of shapeshifting black orbs.
Fracture of Biel-Tan answered the 'how will it kill Slaanesh' part, at least - Ynnead is packed with anti-Chaos shenanigans. The Chaos Gods themselves could not even perceive the Yncarne because it was so anathema to them.
Robin5t wrote: Fracture of Biel-Tan answered the 'how will it kill Slaanesh' part, at least - Ynnead is packed with anti-Chaos shenanigans. The Chaos Gods themselves could not even perceive the Yncarne because it was so anathema to them.
Yeah thay worries me slightly. The only other being that is described as 'anathema' to the chaos gods is the emperor.
If ynnead turns out to be a fragment of the emperor and the eldar ally with humans i might throw up.
Robin5t wrote: Fracture of Biel-Tan answered the 'how will it kill Slaanesh' part, at least - Ynnead is packed with anti-Chaos shenanigans. The Chaos Gods themselves could not even perceive the Yncarne because it was so anathema to them.
Yeah thay worries me slightly. The only other being that is described as 'anathema' to the chaos gods is the emperor.
If ynnead turns out to be a fragment of the emperor and the eldar ally with humans i might throw up.
That’s not exactly true
Spoiler:
In the wrath of magnus the Watchers in the Dark are also described as 'anathema' to demons.
“With the greatest concentration of cells within arm’s reach,
the Changeling found his way barred: not by the embattled
heroes, but by a diminutive figure that was hidden entirely
by white robes and carried a graven crozius in both arms.
The Daemon recoiled in horror, for the creature before it
was anathema to its kind. The creature focussed its baleful
glare, and the Changeling turned and fled.”
So I wouldn’t be too worried as it looks like there is more than one thing that exists in the material universe that is able to counter the Chaos Gods.
Robin5t wrote: Fracture of Biel-Tan answered the 'how will it kill Slaanesh' part, at least - Ynnead is packed with anti-Chaos shenanigans. The Chaos Gods themselves could not even perceive the Yncarne because it was so anathema to them.
That seems odd, given that the Yncarne was sufficiently visible to be dragged down and curb-stomped by Greater Demons in one of its first appearances (according to the leaked spoilers for Gathering Storm II) before it was resummoned when Yvraine found it a shiny new Crone sword...
Or am I remembering that incorrectly?
If Greater Demons can see it decently enough to kick its ass, I can't imagine why a Chaos God would have trouble.
So according to the story so far in order for Ynnead to be fully awakened they need to find all five croneswords, two of which were supposed to be on Belial IV.
Someone and I can’t remember who; so sorry for not crediting you by name, pointed out something very interesting:
Spoiler:
If you have read “Farseer” by William King you will be aware that in the story Farseer Auric Stormcloud and his bodyguard, Athenys and the Rogue Trader Janus Darke take a hellish trip to the Eye of Terror and the planet Belial IV were they retrieved an ancient Eldar “Death” sword. Now the book never got a sequel so we never got to find out what happened next but their next destination was apparently going to be Ulthwé. So they either never got there and the sword is now somewhere in the wider galaxy or the final sword is about to be delivered to the Ynnari on a silver platter
Ynneadwraith wrote: 1. How 12 random schmucks can come together to create a godlike entity in the warp, yet it takes the phenomenally psychic Eldar 10-12,000 years to birth Slaanesh.
2. How big E didn't just roflstomp all opposition on Terra instantly with his godlike powers. It's because at that point, he was just a relatively powerful dude not significantly more powerful than the other relatively powerful dudes.
3. How he was so terribly flawed during the Great Crusade, needed his Space Marines, and couldn't forsee the Heresy. It's because he was still just some dude, at that point buoyed up by the belief of billions, but not quite enough to elevate him to godlike status just yet.
1. They weren't trying to create Slaanesh, it just happened as consequence.
2. because then it would be warhammer fantasy still and not in space in the far far grimdark future.
3. because he's an arrogant donkey-cave and wouldn't listen when he was warned
Robin5t wrote: Fracture of Biel-Tan answered the 'how will it kill Slaanesh' part, at least - Ynnead is packed with anti-Chaos shenanigans. The Chaos Gods themselves could not even perceive the Yncarne because it was so anathema to them.
That seems odd, given that the Yncarne was sufficiently visible to be dragged down and curb-stomped by Greater Demons in one of its first appearances (according to the leaked spoilers for Gathering Storm II) before it was resummoned when Yvraine found it a shiny new Crone sword...
Or am I remembering that incorrectly?
If Greater Demons can see it decently enough to kick its ass, I can't imagine why a Chaos God would have trouble.
The Yncarne is like a Daemon of Ynnead and is materially manifest. It reflects light and can be seen with mortal senses, and therefore also presumably by other materially manifest Daemons. The Chaos gods though are in the warp and have to perceive things through whatever supernatural senses or abilities they have rather than having light enter eyes. The Sensei in the old Realms of Chaos were undetectable by scrying methods and were also invisible to the Emperor and the Chaos gods because they were one with the natural flow of the warp from how it was before it became turbulent. The Star Child is similarly undetected by the Chaos gods. So I would posit that the Yncarne is undetectable by supernatural means in much the same way. However I would think the Chaos gods would still be able to deduce the presence of the Yncarne from its actions on the environment and by the reports of their Daemons that do encounter the Yncarne physically, even if the gods cannot directly perceive the Yncarne.
Ynneadwraith wrote: 1. How 12 random schmucks can come together to create a godlike entity in the warp, yet it takes the phenomenally psychic Eldar 10-12,000 years to birth Slaanesh.
2. How big E didn't just roflstomp all opposition on Terra instantly with his godlike powers. It's because at that point, he was just a relatively powerful dude not significantly more powerful than the other relatively powerful dudes.
3. How he was so terribly flawed during the Great Crusade, needed his Space Marines, and couldn't forsee the Heresy. It's because he was still just some dude, at that point buoyed up by the belief of billions, but not quite enough to elevate him to godlike status just yet.
1. They weren't trying to create Slaanesh, it just happened as consequence.
2. because then it would be warhammer fantasy still and not in space in the far far grimdark future.
3. because he's an arrogant donkey-cave and wouldn't listen when he was warned
Seems a lot like handwavium there
Doesn't mean it's not the official explanation of course...
Robin5t wrote: Fracture of Biel-Tan answered the 'how will it kill Slaanesh' part, at least - Ynnead is packed with anti-Chaos shenanigans. The Chaos Gods themselves could not even perceive the Yncarne because it was so anathema to them.
That seems odd, given that the Yncarne was sufficiently visible to be dragged down and curb-stomped by Greater Demons in one of its first appearances (according to the leaked spoilers for Gathering Storm II) before it was resummoned when Yvraine found it a shiny new Crone sword...
Or am I remembering that incorrectly?
If Greater Demons can see it decently enough to kick its ass, I can't imagine why a Chaos God would have trouble.
The Yncarne is like a Daemon of Ynnead and is materially manifest. It reflects light and can be seen with mortal senses, and therefore also presumably by other materially manifest Daemons. The Chaos gods though are in the warp and have to perceive things through whatever supernatural senses or abilities they have rather than having light enter eyes. The Sensei in the old Realms of Chaos were undetectable by scrying methods and were also invisible to the Emperor and the Chaos gods because they were one with the natural flow of the warp from how it was before it became turbulent. The Star Child is similarly undetected by the Chaos gods. So I would posit that the Yncarne is undetectable by supernatural means in much the same way. However I would think the Chaos gods would still be able to deduce the presence of the Yncarne from its actions on the environment and by the reports of their Daemons that do encounter the Yncarne physically, even if the gods cannot directly perceive the Yncarne.
That's an excellent explanation, though it also doesn't square with the fluff for how Daemons actually see - by the light of soulstuff, rather than by the materially reflected light, or other material/mortal senses.
That fluff itself has issues when you consider Daemon interactions with pure machines, like Tau Drones (Less so the Tau themselves - you can't see a candle in the dark as well as you could a searchlight, but you can still see it). Imperial tech less so, in that one can't fully dismiss Machine Spirits as being actually true...
Still, the distinction between scrying and present-sense viewing is enough for it to make good-enough sense on the whole. My compaint is hereby withdrawn.
I suppose you could square that slightly with the piece of fluff that implied that even weapons and tools have a rudimentary soul, and can be corrupted by daemons. Not quite sure where that's from unfortunately, but I read it on the Lucius the Eternal 1d4chan page so it must be true!
That's an excellent explanation, though it also doesn't square with the fluff for how Daemons actually see - by the light of soulstuff, rather than by the materially reflected light, or other material/mortal senses.
That fluff itself has issues when you consider Daemon interactions with pure machines, like Tau Drones (Less so the Tau themselves - you can't see a candle in the dark as well as you could a searchlight, but you can still see it). Imperial tech less so, in that one can't fully dismiss Machine Spirits as being actually true...
Still, the distinction between scrying and present-sense viewing is enough for it to make good-enough sense on the whole. My compaint is hereby withdrawn.
Daemons don't walk into walls, doors or other inanimate objects like boulders even though those don't have souls. While you are correct in that Daemons don't have conventional eyes (which is why in 2nd edition, they could not be blinded by photon flash grenades), they clearly must be able to perceive their non-living surroundings to move around.
If I had to use an analogy, I would use a thermal imaging camera's view. Beings with strong souls shine "hot", while those with weaker warp presences, like the Tau, are cool and dim. Things like drones and robots might still be visible because they move and stand out in contrast to the ambient "soulstuff" glow of other living things.
The other thing to consider is not so much scale as focus. Slaanesh may be vaster and more powerful than Ynnead but she is also a lot more diffuse. A portion of her attention is focused on every orgy, gambling den, drug-house etc. Ynnead is focused just on the death and survival of the Eldar.
Think of Ynnead as a small insurgent force waging asymmetrical warfare against a vastly superior opposing army. But the opposing army cannot easily bring its strength to bear because it is also guarding the borders, waging other wars, dealing with constant internal disputes and hundreds of other distractions. So the insurgents are a threat in spite of their fewer numbers.
If the existence of the Chaos Gods was simply a brute-force exercise, one of them (probably Khorne) would have kurb-stomped and consumed the others a long time ago.
One thing that interests me is the concept that the Yncarne is running around and active even before Ynnead has been fully awakened, acting rather like a herald. I am sure I remember some old fluff about there being a proto-Slaaneshi daemon capering about on the Eldar worlds before the fall, encouraging ever greater acts of depravity to help bring about Slaanesh's awakening. Almost like a pre-incarnation of the god, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
