Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

lol -- And nope, at least for plastic.

SD has shown pics of the resins from Hysterical Games. AFAIK, We don't know if Hysterical Games will ship the second shipment of resins.

As Sacredroach said, "As I recall Hysterical Games is/has shut down."

Keep it realistic!

GUSSuperbacker

10 days ago

So, finally some news.

First things first : there is one photo of the resin pieces, and all we can do is to hope that Hysterical Games will really shipped the second wave.

Secondly, we have no name for this mysterious new caster capable to complete the production in just some weeks.

Thirdly, the resin miniatures were supposed to be exclusive to this KS. Now, it will be avaibable on the SD store. It don't really bother me, but it would preferable to not talk about exclusivity first, and now it just make it look like SD is in a hurry for money...and that's not reassuring me.

At last, there is still no news about the plastic production, or at less the mold productions. Not a word about the difficulties SD is facing neither.

So, thanks for the news, it could be better and it could be worse too. I hope everybody will have their resins add-ons soon, and think it will be a good omen for us all.

See this update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2374546

This earlier update is what should be sent in each wave. : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2346058

Hysterical Games has shut down. Footsore have started their own resin casting due to that. They shut down end of Nov/early December I believe.

So one of the things I have not seen talked about here is that the Sans Detour Facebook page shut down for a few days after the news of them not paying for IP. When they reopened, they put out a statement explaining that they had received some threats (which is bad, don't do that people). The other thing they mentioned was that Christophe Ammeriti was a target, but not an employee of SD. Which is weird, when he is listed on their site and on the Kickstarter for Confrontation as being part of the team and an employee.

http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2174347

Just wanted to throw that in there as another wrinkle of this whole thing, as the Sans Detour page is pretty much exclusively in French.

Whilst resin is expensive in manhours its a lot cheaper to get started with the moulds. I wonder if SD will either run another KS to try and generate income for the plastic moulds or if they might even bypass and try to do the whole thing in resin instead.

Regardless they seem to have exceptional bad luck in companies closing down around them. Almost every associated company seems to suddenly wind up shutting doors and going into liquidation.

Poking around online he's got a variety of resume site profiles (eg linked in) and on some he mention positions in a mix of San Detour, Stellar Licencing and Ludicbay Group amongst others

so he's clearly involved but quite what hats he's officially wearing at the moment who knows (especially as I can't figure out when he last updated any of them)

it wouldn't be the first time a failing business has neglected to tell people directors have left, it could be he's (now) helping out in a capacity but not officially employed (or paid) any more

> Almost every associated company seems to suddenly wind up shutting doors and going into liquidation.

> Poking around online he's got a variety of resume site profiles (eg linked in) and on some he mention positions in a mix of San Detour, Stellar Licencing and Ludicbay Group amongst others

Just speculating, but...

Considering that SD and Ludik Bazar are closely associated, mebbe SD also somehow "closely" associated with these other companies that are shutting down. Alternately, SD's management could have chosen these companies that are shutting down through some common criteria (eg. lowest bidder). fwiw, I've seen hobby projects shut down because the supplier went out of business (eg. the printer was paid then went bankrupt), and, with SD not paying Chaosium for two years, it's also possible that they didn't pay their suppliers for work done, contributing to these companies closing their doors.

Again, who knows. Although it is another rule of mine when backing a KS to *try* (although usually it's not possible) to find out who the third party manufacturers et al. are in a KS project. If a supplier takes payment and doesn't deliver, the whole project can fall apart. Back realistically!!!

He is absolutely an employee of Sans Detour. He works at their office.

Just because I'm realistic I asked Footsore on their FB page if they're casting miniatures for Confrontation and this is what they said. :

Hello xxxxxx, what has happened with Hysterical Games is separate to us setting up our own resin casting. We havent picked up all their customers so as it currently stands Confrontation Miniatures are not one of our customers.

Yeah, I have no idea why anyone would think Footsore would take over responsibility for Hysterical's work, and Andy's sensible enough to not get involved with SD.

Some of Hysterical's customers have signed on with Footsore as Footsore were originally going to contract resins to Hysterical, but when Hysterical ceased trading Footsore created their own resins team.

Footsore don't have responsibility for fulfilling the minis side of the Confrontation kickstarter, that is SDs responsibility.

This thing had so many red flags, I'm actually surprised enough people backed to fund it....lots of wishful thinking.

Heck, I backed SDE: Forgotten King (which delivered just fine, game rules quality aside), and went into SDE Legends with confidence and look where that project ended up.

I've been burned twice now....The $350 I gave to Soda Pop/Ninja Division, just to see it fizzle and disappear...has really crushed my desire to back any games on Kickstarter anymore, even on seeming 'sure-things'. My buddy dumped 2K into Robotech: Tactics, and got a pretty lousy return on that investment...I'm more inclined to wait and see now, despite the lure of KS exclusives.

I hope the people who put their hard-earned cash and trust into SD for this KS don't get screwed...I kinda saw this happening and stayed away, despite my intense desire to see Confrontation resurrected.

Sedition Wars, the first Myth KS, and most Mantic KS have made me wary enough about being picky. Which is a shame as there’s a small group that play occasionally here even before the KS.

I left $1 in so I could watch it play out first hand.

Lessee...

* If you can wait for a boardgame to hit retail, the base game may appear on retail for 1/2 the price of a pledge plus shipping. Pretty obviously, if the game is MUST BE MINE don't do this. But, if the game isn't a must-have, you can wait.

* Particularly with Amazon selling games, holiday sales can be much better bargains than KS. You won't get all the goodies, but you'll also get retail games at a good price as well. Think of KS as the deluxe version, and retail sales as bargain-hunting.

* Miniatures are better for KS than retail boardgames. Unlike boardgames, miniatures at retail are often sold only at the manufacturer's site, where sales are not common, and you still pay shipping.

Despite my advocacy of and interest in KS, it turns out that I've only backed three projects in 2018, two miniatures and one boardgame. And the boardgame pledge was $25 and included free shipping.

Two more links worth reading:

Chaosium statement. See the comments, including by Chaosium staff. : https://www.yog-sothoth.com/index.html/news/sans-detour-stripped-of-call-of-cthulhu-licence/

Necrophobia. Summary of SD. In French. : http://necrophiludique.blogspot.com/2018/12/confrontation-sans-detour-le-retour-de.html?m=1

ced1106 wrote:
Two more links worth reading:

Chaosium statement. See the comments, including by Chaosium staff. : https://www.yog-sothoth.com/index.html/news/sans-detour-stripped-of-call-of-cthulhu-licence/

Necrophobia. Summary of SD. In French. : http://necrophiludique.blogspot.com/2018/12/confrontation-sans-detour-le-retour-de.html?m=1

In the top link, not only is an employee of Chaosium responding, so is Sandy Peterson, i didnt realise they owed Peterson Games for CW as well!

If the royalties owed to Chaosium alone are over 100,000 Euros as posted in one of the links above they really are sunk

it's a big enough debt to make paying a lawyer (in a foreign country) to chase it for you, and with 400,000 Euros theoretically in the companies account from this KS there's at least some chance of recovering the cash. And once one debt actually reaches court a bunch of other creditors are likely to go for them too just to get their claims in in case San Detour goes bust because of it

Wow, if it's really that high I'm surprised Chaosium really waited this long to even kill the license.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Wow, if it's really that high I'm surprised Chaosium really waited this long to even kill the license.

Honestly I think they were very trusting in SD, but also didn't want customers - ergo backers- to be left without. I think SD stopping all communications and also starting to look like they were going to go from fullfilling the KS to doing retail made Chaosium push the legal button. Basically it's one thing to ensure pre-paid customers are getting their product, but once SD are going into general retail as well then they are only adding customers all for their own profit and Chaosium has nothing.

Also if SD need to "steal" 100,000 then it speaks very poorly of their financial health in the background. Of course having several companies also close down and go bankrupt with close association also suggests that things are really bad. Whilst they might have some justifiable reasoning for this, they are burning bridges with their silence and unprofessional attitude and burning any potential sympathy or understanding. Right now its honestly looking like if SD so much as gets the resins out for Confrontation it will be a big achievement; plastics an insane one and I think we might as well all consider that Resurrection is a dead duck and won't appear (or if it does its going to be right off the back of another Kickstarter)

Smellingsalts wrote:
How Chaosium is still in the industry is what amazes me.

Just as a footnote, back in 2015, Chaosium itself had its own management and money problems, including issues with payment to their own writers, and was still (not) fulfilling its 7th edition Call of Cthulhu KS or Horror on the Orient Express KS.

Upon the death of one of the company shareholders, Lynn Varley (sp), some of the remaining shareholders acquired control of the company and forced the current President, Charlie Krank, to step down.

https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/28763-stafford-and-petersen-back-at-chaosium/

Unfortunately, the interview which goes into detail, is behind a subcription wall. : https://www.yog-sothoth.com/files/file/1481-sandy-petersen-interview-chaosium-2015/?_fromLogin=1

Also, SD owes Petersen Games "six figures" of Cthulhu Wars stuff.

Sandy Petersen, President of Petersen Games and VP of Chaosium:

Ludikbay and Sans Detour declared bankruptcy and did not pay off the debt they owed to both Chaosium and Petersen Games. It was in no way Chaosium's nor Petersen Games's desire to end our deal with Sans Detour.

In Petersen Games' case, they had accepted delivery of a huge amount of our product first, for which we were never paid. I believe at least some of that product (French edition Cthulhu Wars items) made its way to our backers, but like I said, Petersen Games wasn't paid. If I sound a little bitter, it's with reason.

https://www.yog-sothoth.com/index.html/news/sans-detour-stripped-of-call-of-cthulhu-licence/?page=3
https://www.black-book-editions.fr/forums.php?topic_id=12066&nbp=91&nop=23

I just want confrontation to come back, at this point, would be thrilled with rackham rising from the grave to finish the PPP version.

Ppp?

I'd bet that's pre painted plastics

Yeah, while plastics had some problems, I really liked them. The two Rackham games were also really fun, with the added bonus that both of them ran off the same core rules. I own four large armies for each, especially when things went on super-sale after the collapse.

Sometimes it seems like Confrontation is cursed.

I continue to play Confrontation with a group at my FLGS. We've gone through and made a few minor changes and have been able to hunt down enough of the miniatures to play for the last 2 years pretty consistently. Bringing back Confrontation doesn't look like it's what SD is going to do, but if you can - become the change you want to see and start up a group. It's awesome.

The Evo rules the Italian community produced were pretty damn good, and went a long way to balance the variius units in the game. They were even producing decent how to play videos, but stopped when the Conf Classic akS started.

This is disappointing news, though given the history of this much loved license it is less of a surprise than perhaps it should be.

I was hoping for a good reason to unbox my near complete metal collection and get them painted up, would have been great to have people to game with locally.

Wonder what new in box metal minis are going for these days.

There's no "Confrontation curse". Only bad managers dealing with the license and making bad decisions, that's all.

For the pre painted plastic, it was just too soon. If that launched nowadays, it would have been pretty much different, I'm sure. And yes, no matter what the people said at that time, the miniatures were still good material - I still have them at home and sometimes use them in other games.

As for the current Kickstarter, it seems like they are more working on Resurrection rules in the backside than the actual Classic miniatures - well, I guess I can't blame them, it's not like they can actually make the miniatures themselves, since SD has nothing to do that. So better work on what you can do, right ?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, while plastics had some problems, I really liked them. The two Rackham games were also really fun, with the added bonus that both of them ran off the same core rules. I own four large armies for each, especially when things went on super-sale after the collapse.

Sometimes it seems like Confrontation is cursed.

where you ever able to acquire wamphyrs, ghouls or heavy centaurs of acheron? did they produce those?

 thekingofkings wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, while plastics had some problems, I really liked them. The two Rackham games were also really fun, with the added bonus that both of them ran off the same core rules. I own four large armies for each, especially when things went on super-sale after the collapse.

Sometimes it seems like Confrontation is cursed.

where you ever able to acquire wamphyrs, ghouls or heavy centaurs of acheron? did they produce those?

I'm almost sure they produced some PPP Wampyrs, because over the years I have seen them online including for sale on eBay. Not sure about the others.

The Wamphyrs (I think those are the winged ghouls?) came in the army box for the Ram. No Centaurs, ever- my buddy and I were going to use Chaos Knights with skeleton heads for that baroque Ram feel.

It's a shame everyone's having such a problem bringing Confrontation back to life, Aarklash is a cool place for fantasy gaming.