Confrontation: Resurrection-Skirimsh and board game confirmed.

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**Hulksmash**

I get that I'm just saying that I don't think it'll unfund. Because it would need to drop significantly over the next few days because the last few days should be a wash (though maybe it'll just be a mass exodus). My guess is that this will barely fund.

**warboss**

Just catching up on the thread. I had some Confrontation minis back in the day as rpg character figs but never got into the actual game. I have to say that reading about all the warning signs brightly out with flashing neon lights involved with the campaign makes it impossible for me to ever consider throwing money at the project coming off of the failure of Palladium's Robotech Tactics in my case.

**HaleysRedComet**

Regarding Ludikbay/Ludikbazaar - who were stated as "logistics contractor for Sans Detour" and share an owner (Stellar does not share the owner as far as I know, Christophe Ammirati is listed as the director) Joss, one of the SD employees said this in the comments yesterday:

"About Ludikbay : This company is closing... even if we wanted to use it for logistics (And we won't, because we have other contacts with worldwide Hubs who already deal with KS projects), we couldn't. Just because its activity is over and now controlled by a liquidator."

**Duncan_Idaho**

http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

Interestingly the CFO of SD is also the CEO of Stellar, the latter has taken down their team website, so noone with a screenshot from a few days ago can get that link.

**Sarouan**

New update :

Why is the complete project definitely funded?

Confrontation Classic is funded at 300 000 €. It's a huge amount of money, much bigger than many other projects requesting far less money, and yet being successful. This funding covers all operating costs for the team up until the publication of the game, as well as the fabrication of the miniatures, both resin and plastic. As a matter of fact, we own the original miniatures allowing the manufacturing of the molds. Therefore, you pay neither for the engraving nor for the fabrication of masters! All these reasons make this project very much atypical.

So don't be surprised by the gap in prices in comparison with other projects, or by the generosity of this offer. Confrontation Classic is one of a kind.
As far as we are concerned, we only want to cover the salaries of the team, the production and the shipping costs.
You finance the reediting of an exceptional game, and instantly acquire a snapshot of its Golden Age: the complete game and a large range of gorgeous miniatures!

I honestly don't understand what they're trying to achieve with that, unless they want to shoot themselves in the foot. I mean, if we believe these words, it just confirms that they were greedy bastards at the very beginning with their artificial stretch goals. Of course, there is absolutely nothing to back their claims, so we have to trust them for that to happen.

Unsurprisingly, the funds kept dropping after that announcement.

Oh, and it's really a flaming war in the comments since then. At this point, it's not a train wreck : it's a complete disaster.

**TwilightSparkles**

"As a matter of fact" .... usually means "I'm lieing through my teeth but can you prove it ?"

**HaleysRedComet**

If there is one thing I trust about this project, it's that Sans Detour owns the IP (Technically Stellar, but their director is SD's financial guy) and as many master models as were available to them through the sale of that. They released another update that literally just says they will be funded. Again, without context or showing work towards making anything.
We know that SD plans to make an updated version of Confrontation with Resurrection. I don't see how management style like this, along with the ill will many seem to feel towards the company as a result of this project, is going to foster a miniature wargame.

**Mysterio**

Yes, that was certainly a weird announcement to make.

And probably didn't have the desired effect.

This campaign basically hasn't made any money past day 5.

Now sure, it made quite a bit in the first 2 days but...it hasn't done much to shift off of the "Bound to be a frustrating and disappointing - if not spectacular - trainwreck" designation its had almost from the start.

**NoggintheNog**

I haven't been following this one since they launched it still showing images of the original models painted by the original studio.

Have they actually shown any test shots or anything at all that they have actually produced themselves yet?

**HaleysRedComet**

The only things that SD has made themselves that they have shown so far are the demo cards (no new rules, card redesign), a demo rulebook (simple rules of the game), and 2 original pictures in an update.
The resins they showed were made by Rackham.

**endtransmission**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

Interestingly the CFO of SD is also the CEO of Stellar, the latter has taken down their team website, so noone with a screenshot from a few days ago can get that link.

So no-one thought to use the Wayback Machine? https://web.archive.org/web/20171019180511/http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

**Duncan_Idaho**

That one is still there, but on the Stellar-website the info-link leads you only to a 404.

**ced1106**

Latest update has them with something like *four* Confrontation games. Yeah, because it's as easy to publish games as it miniatures. Oh, wait. These are just ideas that won't result in anything.

Too bad they didn't use their RPG publishing experience to release a Confrontation RPG in the first place. It would have been less expensive than miniatures, be within their area of experience, include fluff to promote the franchise, and help establish a foothold for the company. Maybe they could have offered some resin miniatures with production copies as well.

Confrontation Classic is the starting point for a big project: gather tomorrow's community. The miniatures we offer you with today will be compatible with a great many other games, for a long time.

Here is a quick overview of the upcoming projects, already being discussed with game designers:

All the Conf Classic miniatures will have their profile for Confrontation Resurrection in 2019 (rules are currently being designed)
Hybrid v.2, reworking of a great board game where one would fight against the Dirz alchemist's ungodly creatures.
City of Thieves, a new version of the board game taking place in Cadwallon.
Confrontation, the Role Playing Game.
And of course, Confrontation Resurrection will witness the birth of a new, very much awaited, faction: - the formidable Akkyshans Spider-elves.

**Duncan_Idaho**

RPG is not as licrative a market as miniatures, hence probably the tt-KS

**Sarouan**

I found a comment of a "true believer" that was interesting to read to understand their point of view :

Grolière Régis - French Conf'Fédération Il y a 36 minutes

Hey guys, you wanna know why I trust SD?

Because they stick to their plans no matter what the sceptics say (yell?).

I mean, even if the communication part is poor, I'm pretty confident in the way they manage this campaign:
From Day 1 people were asking for individual faction, smaller starting boxes, relaunch with a different offer, etc ad libitum...

Sans Détour did something in reards of these claims. They first explained that it was realistic to offer individual factions in regard of the financial health of this project until a certain funding is reached. But they did gave us the possibility to reach that goal.
So project didn't meet it, well so be it.

I find reassuring that SD is not trying to please everyone by promising anything, offering options that would be toxic to the project. To me it's a badge of preofessionalism.

So, the project is founded but will not skyrocket. What's the problem?
On contrary I find a few advantages to it. One of the main problem with many successful KS is the delivery time.
We all know that the greater the success, the longer we'll have to wait and that the chances to finally be delivered off schedule grow.

So, with only 2000 boxes, odds are high that they will deliver next year, maybe 12 months from now, which would be great. And with this deliver will come the beta rules for Resurrection. So we will have a look at them, will have time to test them BEFORE the Resurrection KS launch...

That's why, IMO, they didn't cancel this KS. And that's what the last update stated. Sans Détour has a business plan for the next 2 to 3 years:
2019 - Resurrection, and maybe Cadwallon RPG
2020 ? - Hybrid
2021 ? - City of Thieves

As I said, Sans Détour has a business plan, a schedule and they stick to it. To me it's it's much more trustful than running around and changing plans with every critic.

And to paraphrase an old quote: Confrontation is dead, long live Confrontation

So, your thoughts ? Is it belieavable that SD has a secret and solid business plan by sticking to this Kickstarter to the end, no matter what ? Or is it just blind faith ?

**Overread**

The thing is it doesn't address any of the actual issues - eg no real display of the casting results; not a single photo of anything that actually comes from the KS itself and no explanation as to how they can afford to create so many models on such a small funding target.

Sure SD have offered more to backers in response; they've stuck to their guns; they've also not over-funded to the point where it will affect their delivery (whcih is a valid point - Reaper Miniatures and Kingdom Death both suffered from having huge wait times early on (reaper is better now) due to vast order quantities).

But the thing is that post doesn't address any of the core issues identified.

**NoggintheNog**

As I said at the beginning.

The giant red flag here is the fact that they are using an entirely different company's product and marketing material to sell their kickstarter.

Everything else, who is behind it, what firm is related to what is largely a red herring and not worth fussing over.

The simple fact is, they are showing Resin or Metal Confrontation miniatures cast and painted by Rackham studio over a decade ago to promote what are, due to the materials proposed, an entirely different range of models that will have vastly different qualities.

**NAVARRO**

Kind of reminds me of the huge online discussions when Rackham shifted from confrotation metals to Prepainted and claimed that the quality would be the same… Pointless discussion really. In all fairness I would love to see rackham metals back into production since the models deserve it but this project lacks direction. I mean highdetailed miniatures for painters cast in a material that will soften the detail work? From high quality figures to boardgame quality? Dont get who is this intended for but the old fans will not be happy with it… assuming that SD will actually produce something and deliver it.

**Davidian**

I just logged into to KS out of grim curiosity. I cancelled my pledge last week. Since then its lost about €100,000in pledges :O

**Duncan_Idaho**

It actually has lost as of now 160k.

Btw I do have some plastics here from Rackham that were on par with their metals, but for one they were of a kind of resin similar to the one Hawk Wargames uses and they were never made in huge numbers. So it is possible to produce really good stuf that is not metal, but the costs are quite high.

**Sarouan**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
So it is possible to produce really good stuf that is not metal, but the costs are quite high.

They seem pretty adamant about the fact it can be done with 300.000 € only, persisting in saying they already own everything and that will just have to cover the costs of logistics, their own salaries and production since sculpting is already done.

And it include the resin pledges as well, with the "big monsters" and all of the stretch goals that keep being unlocked.

**Original Timmy**

I got to say the fans seem so desperate to see Confrontation "return" they are forgetting all about common sense!

Im also finding a lot of contradictions with the latest being this when asked about the 200+ masters and if they will be damaged in mold making

"Joss Collaborator about 13 hours ago(24hrs by now)
@Benjamin Walter
Usually the facilities produce a couple of high resolution copies from the master to garantee the original sculpt is not destroyed in the process and they work with those copies.
Engineers in these facilities can work to cut the tricky parts on some miniatures to fit the plastic production. It has been done this way for Alkemy when it was produced in plastic (with JX)
The process we intend to use for the scanning is tomography (final resolution with this process is under 100µm) and it's ongoing."

So they are now saying the factory needs to scan all the minis and not a few like its mentioned n the FAQs!

Does any one know how many non 28mm(in height) minis will need to be molded? all the pics make it hard for someone who doesnt know the minis to see the sizes, i can see there are a few mounts and they will not cost $1K to mold, $1K will be the price of your standard 28mm mini, a lot of backers doing maths have forgot to take that into account

**Duncan_Idaho**

The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

**Original Timmy**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

Thanks yeah i had a hunch they are in the troll/ogre size category

**ced1106**

> So, your thoughts ?

Some people are going to be paid their salary, and some people aren't getting their miniatures.

**plastictrees**

Original Timmy wrote:
Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

Thanks yeah i had a hunch they are in the troll/ogre size category

There are also all the 'giant' barbarians for the Kelts, the Formors for the Drunes, cavalry etc. Every faction has a healthy number of 'big' models.

**Duncan_Idaho**

My thoughts.... Robotech V2.0 and this time the backers got ample warnings.

**Original Timmy**

plastictrees wrote:
Original Timmy wrote:
Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

Thanks yeah i had a hunch they are in the troll/ogre size category

There are also all the 'giant' barbarians for the Kelts, the Formors for the Drunes, cavalry etc. Every faction has a healthy number of 'big' models.

Thanks, i can imagine some of the cavalry minis come in many pieces too, so you wont be getting many to a mold as all the pieces need keeping together adding to the costs and number of molds needed!

As for my thoughts on the KS and having nothing to do with past Rackham Confrontation, i lost faith when SD went silent and pretty much ignored all constructive criticism regarding a relaunch while pretty much saying "trust us" "we can do it" without anything to back up their comments, all the while they have bleed enough money to buy a brand new Lambo or house outright, 180K isnt peanuts and a gak ton of KS creators would love to receive that sort of funding, which makes me scratch my head over why SD and their fanatics(lets be honest thats what they are) are fine with losing that much money, they must be pretty desperate for money, when a restructured relaunch could do a lot better.

**ced1106**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
My thoughts.... Robotech V2.0 and this time the backers got ample warnings.

Even the RIFTS boardgame got 500 backers, and they only had to pledge $100 - $150!

**astrilux**

Original Timmy wrote:
I got to say the fans seem so desperate to see Confrontation "return" they are forgetting all about common sense!

Im also finding a lot of contradictions with the latest being this when asked about the 200+ masters and if they will be damaged in mold making

"Joss Collaborator about 13 hours ago(24hrs by now)
@Benjamin Walter
Usually the facilities produce a couple of high resolution copies from the master to garantee the original sculpt is not destroyed in the process and they work with those copies.
Engineers in these facilities can work to cut the tricky parts on some miniatures to fit the plastic production. It has been done this way for Alkemy when it was produced in plastic (with JX)
The process we intend to use for the scanning is tomography (final resolution with this process is under 100µm) and it's ongoing."

So they are now saying the factory needs to scan all the minis and not a few like its mentioned n the FAQs!

Does any one know how many non 28mm(in height) minis will need to be molded? all the pics make it hard for someone who doesnt know the minis to see the sizes, i can see there are a few mounts and they will not cost $1K to mold, $1K will be the price of your standard 28mm mini, a lot of backers doing maths have forgot to take that into account

This is just another nail in the coffin. The guys have no idea of what they are talking about. 100 µm is just 0.1mm. Scanning at this resolution will result in an enormous loss of detail. Anyway this reverse engineering process is way too expensive. I have serious doubts they will manage to use it for 200 miniatures. Anyway, for PVC miniatures they don't even need the scans to do the molds in the first place.

I am so sorry for the brand. I love Confrontation and still have almost the whole range in metal. It would have been great to see its rebirth.