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I am building up some Thunderwolf Cavalry models to run alongside my Ravenwing. I am not sure what the best loadout is for them, though. They have a lot of decent options, but what ones are the best and what ones are crap? Note, I'm just talking about running TWC by themselves or with a character or two on Thunderwolves, not a SuperFriends or ThunderDome deathstar list. That kind of discussion would be for another thread. For this, I'm just wanting to run a 5-model unit of TWC with an attached Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf.

Now, my proposal I put forth in a list (link: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717572.page) was to run 2 with pistol and shield, 2 with dual wolf claws, and the packleader with Powerfist and shield. I got some advice (which was appreciated) but I wondered if we could get a discussion going about TWC in general and how to arm them. Is it better to spend as little as possible, or should they be blinged out pretty good to maximize each model's effectiveness?

Honestly when it comes to TWC I tend to run minimalist with their equipment. Only big things I can suggest for them is avoid Powerfists/Thunderhammers on the Pack leader a Wolf claw will do so much more for the challenges as you'll strike at initiative with Thunderwolfs giving rending to attacks.

In my meta Storm Shields are a must if I expect them to survive to reach combat. I'll run a 6 man pack with 4x Bolt pistol/SS, 1 PF/SS, and Pack leader with WC/SS. Any more than that and I'm just wasting points.

I don't ally but when I run TWC I tend to throw in Harold Deathwolf for Furious Charge and use a combination of Storm Shields, Power Mauls, Powerfists and Wolf Claws.

Power Mauls are underappreciated - S+2 ap4 on a Thunderwolf that's S7 ap4, with Furious Charge you're hitting at S8 at natural initiative, insta death to most Space Marine characters, Wulfen and Eldar Jetbikes, capable of Glancing a Land Raider or Monolith and a grand total of 15 points.

For my TWC I tend to have 4 models + an HQ equipped with
Claw + SS Pack Leader
Claw + SS
Chainsword or Pistol + SS
Power Fist + Pistol
While the Wolf Lord has Black Death + SS.
Reason for this is because the Pack Leader can take challenges and still swing at I, the Chainsword + SS rides close to the Wolf Lord to LoS anything extra deadly, the claw + SS is next in line to LoS, while the Power Fist guy is usally the last one into the fight and in theory the last one to start taking wounds. Giving everyone both a SS + Power/PF/Claw Weapon is very points demanding and often times the need for bodies outweighs the need for everyone in the unit to be geared to the teeth.

 Vankraken wrote:
For my TWC I tend to have 4 models + an HQ equipped with
Claw + SS Pack Leader
Claw + SS
Chainsword or Pistol + SS
Power Fist + Pistol
While the Wolf Lord has Black Death + SS.
Reason for this is because the Pack Leader can take challenges and still swing at I, the Chainsword + SS rides close to the Wolf Lord to LoS anything extra deadly, the claw + SS is next in line to LoS, while the Power Fist guy is usally the last one into the fight and in theory the last one to start taking wounds. Giving everyone both a SS + Power/PF/Claw Weapon is very points demanding and often times the need for bodies outweighs the need for everyone in the unit to be geared to the teeth.

Kind of surprises me that Black Death is so popular.
I pack the Armour of Russ or Helm of Durfast depending on if Challenges or Wyrdstorm are lynchpinning.

I've magnetized them all because there are several nice combinations and I only play WYSIWYG. It's absolutely not difficult to do it and I invite you to do the same.

Typically I run my thunderwolves with a few upgrades, you have to keep them cheap. Adding some storm shield in mandatory, and a single thunder hammer would be nice. I usually run a unit of six with 3-4 shields and a thunder hammer or a unit of five with 3 shields and a hammer.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Kind of surprises me that Black Death is so popular.
I pack the Armour of Russ or Helm of Durfast depending on if Challenges or Wyrdstorm are lynchpinning.

That's mostly beacuse the miniature of the wolf lord has an axe and Black Death has the same cost of a normal axe but with some upgrades. Helm of durfast seems almost wasted on him, I use it only to equip one of the rune priests that belong to the Wyrdstorm Brotherood formation. Also the armour can be redundant as the model has already a 3+ invuln with the shield. I typically run my wolf lord on a thunderwolf with just a storm shield and black death, sometimes with runic armour but only because I made a list in which I had 20 points spared and not many options available.

My Wolf Lord is a kit bash and I like running Black Death for the good mix of having decent strength and the extra attacks from the Whirlwind of Death rule which helps when you need to mow down fodder as well as tougher foes.

 Blackie wrote:
I've magnetized them all because there are several nice combinations and I only play WYSIWYG. It's absolutely not difficult to do it and I invite you to do the same.

Typically I run my thunderwolves with a few upgrades, you have to keep them cheap. Adding some storm shield in mandatory, and a single thunder hammer would be nice. I usually run a unit of six with 3-4 shields and a thunder hammer or a unit of five with 3 shields and a hammer.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Kind of surprises me that Black Death is so popular.
I pack the Armour of Russ or Helm of Durfast depending on if Challenges or Wyrdstorm are lynchpinning.

That's mostly beacuse the miniature of the wolf lord has an axe and Black Death has the same cost of a normal axe but with some upgrades. Helm of durfast seems almost wasted on him, I use it only to equip one of the rune priests that belong to the Wyrdstorm Brotherood formation. Also the armour can be redundant as the model has already a 3+ invuln with the shield. I typically run my wolf lord on a thunderwolf with just a storm shield and black death, sometimes with runic armour but only because I made a list in which I had 20 points spared and not many options available.

I did mention the Helm was for Wyrdstorm.
I don't bother with Shields on Wolf Lords - They get a natural 4++ from the Belt of Russ, still makes the 4++ from the Armour redundant but the 2+ save and -5 to your opponent's initiative in a challenge is easily worth 35 points in my meta, having two hands free to strap on a pair of Wolf Claws also makes him pretty handy at killing things in challenges.

I think for the TWC, 1 TH or PF in a squad is all what they need in terms special melee weapon they need, rest guys are meat shields and provide a few rending to weaken the enemy before your S10 AP2 weapon strikes. While it is worthy to give everyone Storm Shield to make them tough enough in current meta.

For the attached Independent Character riding on wolf, it is good idea to load them up with a pair of special melee weapons like Wolf Claw w Powerfist, instead of one melee weapon and Storm Shield, due to they have higher WS and more attacks than normal TWCs, that additional attack and choice of weapon are much more efficient on them.

For the "Armor of Russ", it is decent to give to a Wolf Lord, for -5I to enemy at the cost 15pts more than (almost mandatory) normal runic armor. However, the most efficient place is on a Wolf Guard Battle Leader who don't come with a natural inv save, and is only 10pts more than the runic armor on him

6 Powerfists and 6 Stormshields with Tiggy Conclave for Veil of Time and Celestine for HnR. The "cheaper" Wolfstar. Only runs 1100 pts or so instead of 1600 like oldschool Azrael stars.

I think it really matters how durable you want the star and what your goal is for it.

You can run it almost naked for 40 pts each and they are still pretty damn effective.

I'm going to be running mine in the Deathpack formation (from Start Collecting: Space Wolves). The ability it gives is that the TWC can run and charge in the same turn, Ork WAAAGH! style. For this reason I won't be attaching any non-Formation characters to it as they would then lose the ability. I can definitely agree about having shields on everyone, as many opponents will start pointing the big guns with good AP their way when they get close.

I do like the idea of magnetizing them, but I've never tried magnetizing anything that small before (smallest I've ever done is Crisis suits). Is it as simple as putting magnets where the arms join the body?

 ZergSmasher wrote:


I do like the idea of magnetizing them, but I've never tried magnetizing anything that small before (smallest I've ever done is Crisis suits). Is it as simple as putting magnets where the arms join the body?

Yeah, it should be doable. It's nott much smaller than Crisis suit, if smaller at all. I also recommend a small pin to keep arms in position instead of spinning wildly.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm going to be running mine in the Deathpack formation (from Start Collecting: Space Wolves). The ability it gives is that the TWC can run and charge in the same turn, Ork WAAAGH! style. For this reason I won't be attaching any non-Formation characters to it as they would then lose the ability. I can definitely agree about having shields on everyone, as many opponents will start pointing the big guns with good AP their way when they get close.

I do like the idea of magnetizing them, but I've never tried magnetizing anything that small before (smallest I've ever done is Crisis suits). Is it as simple as putting magnets where the arms join the body?

Harold doesn't actually need to be with them, just within 12" at the start of the Assault Phase. So - Movement phase they all stick together, Shooting Phase the Deathpack boys pull ahead by a maximum of 6" and Assault Phase Harold's Saga of the Wolfkin triggers then they charge.

Build several torsos equipped differently and magnetise them to the mounted legs. I tried doing individual arms but single pinned weapons droop and couldn't get my hands on magnets small enough double pin that didn't cost as much as a pack of TWC.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

I don't bother with Shields on Wolf Lords - They get a natural 4++ from the Belt of Russ, still makes the 4++ from the Armour redundant but the 2+ save and -5 to your opponent's initiative in a challenge is easily worth 35 points in my meta, having two hands free to strap on a pair of Wolf Claws also makes him pretty handy at killing things in challenges.

Only ap3 though... the armour of russ and two wolf claws is a nice combination indeed but when it comes to a 200ish points warlord I can't stand the idea that it doesn't have ap2, even if it forced him to strike at I1. Also the wolf lord is usually targeted by nasty weapons or characters that fight hard, so he will face a lot of ap2 hits and having a better invuln is quite handy. Storm shield and black death are only 40 points in total, if I want a 2+ armour I can add a runic armour increasing his wargear cost into 60 points. An ork warboss in megarmor and lucky stikk for example can massacre a wolf lord if he doesn't have ap2 or a better invuln save, those claws would only cause one wound with average dice rolling, but the warboss has 4-5 s10 rerollable ap2 attacks and I think with only a 4+ invuln the wolf lord could die pretty easily.

I think that 2+ armour and 3+ invuln is better than 2+ armour, 4+ invuln and -5 for the opponent initiative. The two different set up have exactley the same cost of 35 points.

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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

and couldn't get my hands on magnets small enough double pin that didn't cost as much as a pack of TWC.

Really? I got 300 2mmx1mm magnets on ebay for the equivalent of 10 US dollars in total, they were all coming from UK. I know that in Australia things can be different due to shipping costs but maybe you can find a good deal too on ebay.

 Blackie wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

I don't bother with Shields on Wolf Lords - They get a natural 4++ from the Belt of Russ, still makes the 4++ from the Armour redundant but the 2+ save and -5 to your opponent's initiative in a challenge is easily worth 35 points in my meta, having two hands free to strap on a pair of Wolf Claws also makes him pretty handy at killing things in challenges.

Only ap3 though... the armour of russ and two wolf claws is a nice combination indeed but when it comes to a 200ish points warlord I can't stand the idea that it doesn't have ap2, even if it forced him to strike at I1. Also the wolf lord is usually targeted by nasty weapons or characters that fight hard, so he will face a lot of ap2 hits and having a better invuln is quite handy. Storm shield and black death are only 40 points in total, if I want a 2+ armour I can add a runic armour increasing his wargear cost into 60 points. An ork warboss in megarmor and lucky stikk for example can massacre a wolf lord if he doesn't have ap2 or a better invuln save, those claws would only cause one wound with average dice rolling, but the warboss has 4-5 s10 rerollable ap2 attacks and I think with only a 4+ invuln the wolf lord could die pretty easily.

I think that 2+ armour and 3+ invuln is better than 2+ armour, 4+ invuln and -5 for the opponent initiative. The two different set up have exactley the same cost of 35 points.

Mostly my Wolf Lords are up against high initiative models that the Wolf Claws put straight onto Invulnerable, Re-animation and FnP saves. Shred serves me better than ap2.

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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

and couldn't get my hands on magnets small enough double pin that didn't cost as much as a pack of TWC.

Really? I got 300 2mmx1mm magnets on ebay for the equivalent of 10 US dollars in total, they were all coming from UK. I know that in Australia things can be different due to shipping costs but maybe you can find a good deal too on ebay.

Possibly. Me and ebay aren't the best of friends though - I have purchased empty packets before.

I mentioned 6 PFs and 6 SSs set-up a little bit above (with the Imperial cheese attache)d. Since then - the OP mentioned they want to run it with the Start-up formation, eg without additional ICs.

I still stick with my original thoughts. For 480 pts, you get 6 TWCs with PFs and SSs. Let's run some quick math here.

80 pts per TWC. 40 pts wound. 5 S10 attacks (charging or Counter-Attack). 3+ Armor, 3++ Inv, T5, Cavalry movement + D6 Run movement (from formation) - don't forget Fleet! Rerolls on run and charge ranges are priceless on a melee-oriented unit.

Comparing to other models with similar stats:
Space Marine with 3+ Armour: 14 pts
Legion of the Damned with 3++: 25 pts
Space Marine on a Bike: 23 pts
Space Marine on a Bike w/ SS: 33 pts (Command)

Most Imperial Powerfist (only S8): 15pts**

Adding a Powerfist to any of the above models show reasonable point value comparision: 29, 40, 38, 48 pts respectively. But with 2 wounds a piece, the ability to rotate 1W models to the back, and the additional perks, it's hard to say they aren't worth their weight (IMO).

Additional perks:
12" movement, 3+, 3++, 2W, T5, *S8+* - these were already mentioned and are roughly equivalent point for point.
However, you also get S10 (the additional +2S is hands-down the best part of TWC), Fleet (both helpful for movement and to maximize the formations added benefits), and the additional option for wound mitigation. Wound allocation only increases when the Wolf Lord tanks and LOS only until the first TWC wound is failed.

** = I bring this up because you are paying 15 pts for the same PF as a sergeant but its closer to 7.5 pts per wound. There is a little leeway when you are comparing the PFs to Sergeants, TWC, and Wolf Lords as they have different wound amounts, but it's important to consider the point efficiency.

If you couldn't guess it, I would also add a PF/SS to the Wolf Lord as well. 3++ is amazing for tanking as many wounds as possible for your TWC. Let the Sergeant (of the TWC) tank the Challenges and hope he passes his 3++.

The 6 S10 attacks from the Wolf Lord is too good to replace with a Black Axe. He won't die before I1 - if he did, it's user error. He took too many wounds earlier, the sergeant died in the shooting phase to accept the challenge against other S10 enemies, etc.

But with only power fists the entire unit strikes at I1, I'd take just one maybe two models with an unwieldy weapon in a 5-6 man unit of thunderwolves.

They have lots of attacks and the Rending special rule, so they're deadly even with their stock wargear, and also you'll save 150ish points as 6 thunderwolves with 4 shields and a thunder hammer cost 330 points.

You can add 1-2 more shields but I always go with a single model equipped with an unwieldy weapon, typically a thunder hammer, and they're extremely deadly.

I always have the murderpack around to improve them but they are a great unit even running with allied imperial forces. Keep them as cheap as possible though, otherwise they would become a huge point sink, they're already a good unit and they don't need tons of upgrades.

I described how I like 'em. 40k is definitely a game of preference. I like running TWC to kill anything in 1 turn of combat (2 assault phases). If they get locked into combat with any Super Heavy you want them 1-shotting the thing and keeping it contained with only one round of D3 stomps. Anything more and averages say he's removing 2-3 models on a 6.

Yes, they are killy without 6 PFs, but they definitely get the job done if they do. I don't want to risk a 2-3 turn (3-6 Assault phases) combat with a 300+ point investment - especially with all the fearless armies running around. Rending is nice, but S10 AP2 is better. Hell - a basic Decurion Necron Warrior squad can lock TWC in combat for a turn or 2 with only one S10 model.

And IMO, never take TH for 5 more pts. Concussive is the only benefit and it's arguably never worth it. The only thing is saves you from is I5 enemies like Daemon Princes and Tyrants? Which are in the air? Everything else is striking at the same time or I1 anyway. (Didn't bring up most Eldar/other I5 since they don't want to be in h2h)

The wounds from a "6" on a D weapon still only kills one model.

Edit: you were talking about stomps. Never mind.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I don't ally but when I run TWC I tend to throw in Harold Deathwolf for Furious Charge and use a combination of Storm Shields, Power Mauls, Powerfists and Wolf Claws.

Power Mauls are underappreciated - S+2 ap4 on a Thunderwolf that's S7 ap4, with Furious Charge you're hitting at S8 at natural initiative, insta death to most Space Marine characters, Wulfen and Eldar Jetbikes, capable of Glancing a Land Raider or Monolith and a grand total of 15 points.

I was building a power maul squad just for this, but then I did some tests with it VS wolf claws. Wolf claws will out perform power mauls in just about every situation. Vehicles are when mauls come out ahead.
1. Mauls now rely heavily on rending. No rends, Meq get saves and that stinks.
2. If you get charged you lose that instant death awesomeness.
3. Wolf claws have shred, which easily close the gap of S6 and S7, and greatly help with getting rending attacks against higher T targets.
4. Wolf claws always work, no need to charge, no need for rend. You have less attacks due to specialist, but will have a wider threat range thanks to shred/rend/ap3

Sure you can't glance a land raider, but that is what the S10 dude is there for. I generally run units of 4 TWC in TAC lists. 2 with claws, 2 with shields 1 with fist. Leader has claw/shield, then shield/pistol, claw/pistol, and fist/pistol. Its cheap, can be durable, and reliable.

Saythings wrote:
I described how I like 'em. 40k is definitely a game of preference. I like running TWC to kill anything in 1 turn of combat (2 assault phases). If they get locked into combat with any Super Heavy you want them 1-shotting the thing and keeping it contained with only one round of D3 stomps. Anything more and averages say he's removing 2-3 models on a 6.

Yes, they are killy without 6 PFs, but they definitely get the job done if they do. I don't want to risk a 2-3 turn (3-6 Assault phases) combat with a 300+ point investment - especially with all the fearless armies running around. Rending is nice, but S10 AP2 is better. Hell - a basic Decurion Necron Warrior squad can lock TWC in combat for a turn or 2 with only one S10 model.

And IMO, never take TH for 5 more pts. Concussive is the only benefit and it's arguably never worth it. The only thing is saves you from is I5 enemies like Daemon Princes and Tyrants? Which are in the air? Everything else is striking at the same time or I1 anyway. (Didn't bring up most Eldar/other I5 since they don't want to be in h2h)

Actually there are a lot of ap2 nasty close combat units with initiative 2 or more, like wraiths, talos, grotesques with their rending attacks, but also other thudnerwolves with basic I4 or wulfen. For 5 points more you gain also ap1 which can be handy is assaulting vehicles, more chances to blow them up.

 Blackie wrote:

Saythings wrote:
I described how I like 'em. 40k is definitely a game of preference. I like running TWC to kill anything in 1 turn of combat (2 assault phases). If they get locked into combat with any Super Heavy you want them 1-shotting the thing and keeping it contained with only one round of D3 stomps. Anything more and averages say he's removing 2-3 models on a 6.

Yes, they are killy without 6 PFs, but they definitely get the job done if they do. I don't want to risk a 2-3 turn (3-6 Assault phases) combat with a 300+ point investment - especially with all the fearless armies running around. Rending is nice, but S10 AP2 is better. Hell - a basic Decurion Necron Warrior squad can lock TWC in combat for a turn or 2 with only one S10 model.

And IMO, never take TH for 5 more pts. Concussive is the only benefit and it's arguably never worth it. The only thing is saves you from is I5 enemies like Daemon Princes and Tyrants? Which are in the air? Everything else is striking at the same time or I1 anyway. (Didn't bring up most Eldar/other I5 since they don't want to be in h2h)

Actually there are a lot of ap2 nasty close combat units with initiative 2 or more, like wraiths, talos, grotesques with their rending attacks, but also other thudnerwolves with basic I4 or wulfen. For 5 points more you gain also ap1 which can be handy is assaulting vehicles, more chances to blow them up.

Concussive doesn't help in any of those list situations as they would all die from ID (T5 vs S10 weapons). Short of Talos - but they move 6", IIRC. I get that Wraiths get a weaker FNP but if Wraiths locked the alternatively equipped TWC, then you are locked for the rest of the game. My 6 PF/SS's set-up is still loads better. I2 hitting first is okay. You have a 2+, 3++ Wolf Lord tanking most of the hits, and LOSing you are scared of. I mentioned using the TWC Sergeant for tanking challenges earlier as well. There isn't much in the game that can take on 6 TWC with PF/SS's. I get it's an investment, but its takes a better one to deal with it (from past experiences). Super Heavies is one of the better answers which is why I like killing the SH in 1 single Assault Phase. Any longer and it gets really dicey - pun intended

Also, TH are also AP2. Unless you have some fancy TH I don't know about!

Edit: Iron Priests have AP1 from their Servo Arms, maybe that's what you were thinking about? But that's a different topic.

I made a mistake, i thought thunder hammers were ap1, my bad.

It's not difficult to kill thunderwolves, they have T5 and 3+ invuln typucally, so some high strenght weapons have good chances to kill them.

A warboss in megarmor and lucky stikk for example can put 5 s10 ap 2 hits, and there are high chances to instant kill 1-2 thunderwolves. Not to mention the remaing 4 s9 ap2 attacks from the nob and the 80ish s4 from the boyz. IMHO having at least half of the thunderwolves models that strike first is better.

So if you let the enemy strike before them, you may lost some thunderwolves and all their attacks, that's why against dedicated close combat enemy units it can be nice to strike at I4.

Several enemies units also have invulns, like wraiths so all your attacks may not kill them all, especially if you suffer casualties for two turns without having the chance to strike back with those fallen models.

Also if the unit costs 700ish points including the wolf lord, it would be targeted by the entire fire power in the world, you're going to lose some extremely expensive thunderwolves in every shooting phase.

If you plan to use them mainly against superheavies because the rest of your army can't deal with them it may be ok (you can even put 2 melta bombs in that unit, one for the lord and one for the pack leader for just 10 points in total), but typically thunderwolves run better if not too expensive. I usually take 2 units of 5 with a single I1 weapons in each group, having more is better than equipping them with super weapons IMHO.

I get what you saying. But I feel like those examples only strengthen my points - both with TH vs PFs and having them all PFs/SSs.

Let me elaborate!

For the concussive rule, in both examples as well as most other models you'll be fighting with TWC, the concussive rule doesn't apply. I'm not saying your 2 examples are the reason you'd want them, but it shows the perspective of why you don't need it. Most targets, both the MAWB and the Wraiths either die or don't die to a S10 hit. Yes, it doesn't get past the 3++ or the 6+ FNP, but neither does the Rending attacks. However, if one attack does get past, both the the 3++/6+, it dies. Rending attacks need to get past the 3++ and the 5+ FNP TWICE. As for the MAWB, the first blow kills the WB, they only need to fail a single LoS.

Similarly, when you have a large unit that is all equipped with PFs/SSs the units output and durability remains the same. The enemy can't charge the 'weak side' (without SSs) with the two listed examples. The enemy won't just 1 shot 1-2 TWC without invulns, and they can't position their AP3 shooting weapons similarly.

The idea behind having 3++ on all the models is expensive, but it requires the enemy to think. Yes, it's 700+ pts, but depending on dice and averages, it could be as simple as shooting it to death with an average amount of shots. However, with 3++ there is a potential of it never dying or simply absorbing an above average amount of shots. With shieldless TWC, the enemy simply needs to outmaneuver your SS-tanks. Also models get removed (short of a cover save) rather than ALWAYS* getting a 3++.

A slow MAWB should never be able to assault your 12" moving Cavalry, unless you want it to. But even if it does, with the 3++, you might be able to tank a few hits before he ID's you. When you are comparing those attacks again naked TWC he wipes it for free. But that match up seems more user-error than anything else. 700 pts for a star of 36 S10 attacks is a steal when you compare it to other things. It also leaves you with 1150 points of the rest of your army.

Yes - he'll shoot at it, but that's the whole point of the star. He has to deal with it and T5 with a 3++ on 2 wounds isn't the easiest thing to deal with from a range.

Some perspective, I played in a Highlander tourny (Da Boyz) and I had 4 TWC with PFs/SS, 1 Wolf Priest, and 1 Wolf Lord in a "deathstar". That unit single handedly ate most armies firepower the first 2-3 turns every game. A lot of the time I was using it as a counter assault unit for my WK and Scat Bike unit. But they held up very well. It's crazy that if you keep rolling 3+, they live forever. Out of the 6 round tournament, they only were completely wiped once and it was against a 50man blob of IG thru overwatch and their S3 attacks. Haha.

The idea of a highlander makes it a little bit less impressive since the enemy can't min/max thru firepower, but the idea still gets across.

Well actually a MAWB doesn't walk on foot, he rides on trukk/BW, I play that model very often and usually assault whatever I want, especially against armies that are not eldar/IG/Tau with tons of shooting. Only the warboss has high chances to instant kill 2 thunderwolves, but the little orks should strip another couple of wounds strking at I2. The warboss is going to die for sure but at what cost? 250 points of orks can ruin that deathstar. If there's a unit in BW that charges the thunderwolves they can strip another wound on average and may survive the turn having 18 boyz, a nob and a warboss, with the warboss that takes only the last hits, while the other orks absorb every wound they can take. If he survives (and with half or maybe more of the thunderwolves out between the first turn of shooting and the boyz hits he may do) he can instant kill another one on average in the subsequent turn. Now we're talking about 360 points of orks.

But there's also shooting to consider, with my dark eldars I usually have 100ish poisoned shots with BS4. A single round of shooting can kill a lot of thunderwolves. Then there are 5 Talos that strike before the thunderwolves and have 5 or 4+ FNP, you may avoid them but you'll be forced to go wherever the dark eldar player want you to go with those thunderwolves.

My orks lists also have tons of bikers, just 12 of them have an average of 20 hits with s5, so 10 wounds and 3 of them not saved. A single unit of lobbas places 5 blasts with s5, another 1-2 wound stripped. Then there are the tankbustas, typically 15-20 shots at s8, another 1-2 wounds stripped. Half of the thunderwolves unit gone from average ork shooting, the units that I described cost a third of the ork list in a 1850 points game, if you face Zhadnark and his bikers troops you'll take60-80 TL shots with s5, and even with their bs2 there are a lot of shots.

Against tau or eldar 6-7 thunderwolves may not reach combat at all.

I use to play thunderwolves too and a unit of six with or without a lord is far from being immortal against 1-2 turns of shooting, sometimes I lose 3-4 thunderwolves with shields before getting them into combat.

That's why I typically bring two units of five while keeping them cheap, and I also rely on the curse of the wulfen bonus that make them go faster.

With 700+ points you can fit 12+ thunderwolves, all equipped with shields and a couple with an unwieldy weapon.

Your list probably performed well beacuse you had the cheasiest units in 40k like scatter bikes and a WK or got the right opponent for your army. In a typical SW list thunderwolves are your best unit, along with wulfen, so the rest of the army is not that important. That's why having a lot of priority targets (2x5 wulfen and 2x5 thunderwolves) is better than having a single deathstar with 7 thunderwolves.

If we only consider a SW army or a DA one (the original poster wanted to try thunderwolves with them) the typical loadout that you see in games is 3-4 shields for every 6 models (but equipping them all with shields is just 30-45 points more and several players go for max shields) and one maybe two unwieldy weapons.

I usually take one thunder hammer because I love the model and just 5 points more than a power fist are worth it IMHO as you can assault some T6+ unit with I2+ that can survive a round of close combat. Yes with tons of s10 attacks you can cause overkill but that deathstar is going to take all the firepower in the world and may be crippled since the first turn.

12 thunderwolves with average loadout are more killy than 6 with all the gadgets.

I see some of your points. I'll also agree that a MAWB in a trukk usually gets to its target, but I don't understand why the trukk isn't dead when the SW player knows that the MAWB is one the biggest threats to the star.

The OP mentioned they wanted to run the formation (the SW Starter one that is 1 TWC unit and 1 Wolf Lord) with DA support. There isn't a 2x5 TWC and 2x5 Wulfen. There is only 1 unit of TWC. I still stand by my assessment of 6 PFs and 6 SSs. The rough numbers you threw out could weaken the 'star' for sure. You mentioned you shoot about 1/3 of your army into the star and the 'star' is only 1/3 of the points of the example list as well.

With Ravenwing support, depending on the models, a single or couple of trukks (particularly the ones with MAWB) should never cross the field. If it did, then the SW player is going to have more trouble on his hands then losing his TWC - as he probably lost. 3-6 hull pts with Powerklaws inside need to be dealt with and quite possible will be dealt with.

I did point out it was a highalnder list and ALSO pointed out that it was poor example, but with 3++ it comes down to saves rather than wounds done. (AP3 weapons simply remove models that don't have the SSs)

The single unit of TWC with 6PFs/SSs will out perform a single unit of TWC with any other combination of weapons. Even if you don't make the points back thru killing alone, the enemy has to focus it down as quickly as possible. They have to deal with it and with the added D6 run movement, it gas to be dealt with sooner rather than later. The threat potential and required focus fire makes up for the additional 25pts per PF, imo.

I would disagree with your last statement of 12 TWC with average load outs is more killy that 6 with PFs - but I also choose my assaults more carefully. I pick and choose where I want my S10 hits. The rest of my army can deal with the small threats.

Last thought, of course I picked the best of each codex in a Highlander list. Haha. It's a tournament after all!

Saythings wrote:
I see some of your points. I'll also agree that a MAWB in a trukk usually gets to its target, but I don't understand why the trukk isn't dead when the SW player knows that the MAWB is one the biggest threats to the star.

Mostly because SW have very very little firepower, in turn one you'll typically rely on bolters and a few melta/plasma shots spread across troop units.

I understand how you like to play your thunderwolves, I respect it completely.

I'm just saying that it seems a waste to me if you're going to equip every single model with a specialist weapon as you may lose half the unit in the first turns of shooting or in close combat when fighting against units that strike before you. Thunderwolves get lots of attention even if they don't have a single ap2 weapon so having at least 2-3 models that can screen your best equipped riders in the shooting phase, or throw a decent amount of hits in close combat at I4, can be very useful.

I know that my typical SW list is not like having a single unit of TWC allied, I was just saying that playing them that way really increases their survivability, not equipping all of them with shields/big weapons. A model with a chainsword is resilient as much as model with a power fist but if you lose the second one you have wasted 25 points, and you could easily lose half the unit before striking at I1.

If you think about a typical ravenwing list, no one would waste his shooting phase against a bunch of invlurnerable bikers, the entire fire power is going to target the thunderwolves.

A unit of 6Pfs/SS thunderwolves out performs a unit with 3-4 shields and a single ap2 weapons for sure but it also costs twice the points while not being particularly more resilient. You may not chose where you want your s10 hits, there's also another player in the game, he may force you to go for longer distances or charge expendable units, screening with them his best units exposing the thunderwolves to at least 2 turn of shooting.

Typically even when I equipped a full unit of 6 thunderwolves with SS a couple of them was always slayed by enemy's shooting, that's why keeping them cheap and adding more bodies works way better.

All good my brother. I just wanted to point out my alternative TWC set-up. It's done me well in the past and I like having a unit that can take care of what it needs to care of. Saving points is great here and there but if you have the extra points, I wouldn't mind more S10 hits - regardless of I1 or not.

The 6 PF/SS set-up get exponentially better when you add Veil of Time to the mix - but this isn't the case for this particular post.

TLDR - For 15 pts each, I'd probably always grab 6 SSs. The weapons is more preference. Good luck with your newly built TWC! (Obviously magnetizing is the best way to equip them, but I can't stand using them personally).

I appreciate the replies guys! I already had 3 models built from the SC box (built 2 with pistol and shield, and one with fist and shield), but now I've got some ideas as to how to set up the 3 models from the box of TWC I just bought recently.

My loadouts for TWC.
Note - the only marine armies I face are Grey Knights so they're already mostly packing 2+ and 5++, otherwise I'm duking it out with Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Orks and IG.

Wolf Lord - Thunderwolf+Armour of Russ or Runic Armour+Wolf Claw+Powerfist 220-235pts
TWC pack leader - SS+Power Maul 70pts
TWC SS+Bolt Pistol 55pts
TWC SS+Bolt Pistol 55pts
TwC SS+Bolt Pistol 55pts
470pts
Harold 190pts - 210pts if you take the Champions of Fenris detachment just for Harold.

A less speedy but possibly more durable option would be the Heralds of the Great Wolf.
Iron Priest on Thunderwolf, Rune Priest ML2 on Bike and Wolf Priest on Bike all decked out in Runic Armour 405pts
Try for Hammerhands and or Sanctuary, preferably Sanctuary.

Thanks to the Wolf Priest as long as he lives the 3 Heralds have IWND and the entire unit has FnP(6)
The Rune Priest as long as he lives drops the BS of anything that targets the unit in the shooting phase by one.
The Iron Priest while alive lets the three Priests ignore the first failed saving throw of each phase.
If you get lucky on Psychic ability rolls you have a unit that gets shot on 6s and melee'd on 5s, saves on 2+ or thanks to Sanctuary 5++, 3++ for the Wolf Priest, can potentially mitigate perils with the FnP(6) or IWND.
Hammer Hands is a bit irrelevant to the Iron Priest since he can already hit at S10 with the Servo Arm or Thunderhammer - he can hit with the Wolf or Bolt Pistol at S7 with rending but the Wolf Priest's Cronius has S8, ap4 and concussive. The Rune Priest + Librarians all have opportunities for Force so equip them with Swords and you're dealing insta-death at S6 ap3, Staves for S8 ap4 or axes at I1 but S8 ap2.

Run the Libby or Harold or a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with a Thunderwolf and Storm Shield out the front and 'look out Sir' gets crazy really quick.